Argument in cinema results in gunshot death

[MakeDigitalLove]

It's not, for the umpteenth time, the basis for violence to be justified, but the dick died as a dick. Everyone's life and priorities are more important than those around them. In public space, the increasing unwillingness to recognize that and behave accordingly is resulting in more friction, and it should. Pretending that your conversation isn't overtalking the screen is just as much a problem.

But your focus on him through out the entirety of this thread suggests otherwise, especially your lack of empathy earlier in the thread. People can be dicks in a moment, or rude in a moment, but that doesn't mean that is who they were. But here you are criticizing this guy completely based on this one moment.

 

[xbuzzerx]

It is a falsity to reduced the event to a trigger-happy psycho only. He obviously is a disgrace to his training and his former public service oath.

That's exactly what it was. If this had been two civilized people or if the gun hadn't been present in the theater we would not be here discussing this story at all.

And the suggestion that this is somehow a matter of one theater patron schooling another on etiquette is simplistic beyond belief. No, it isn't a matter of manners or etiquette, it's a matter of shared space and rights. It's not rude to be on a subway and engaging in public sex -- it's illegal. It's not merely rude to be texting or talking on your phone during the previews or movie, it's a violation of the terms of sale by the theater and an intrusion on the rights of other patrons to see the movie they came to see.

All of this is completely irrelevant to shooting someone. So if you want, as you claim, for it to be clear that you are not justifying the shooting, perhaps you should stop trying to insist we need to be having some greater discussion about respecting public etiquette when even the rudest behavior doesn't justify killing somebody.

It's not, for the umpteenth time, the basis for violence to be justified, but the dick died as a dick.

So what? What point do you feel this proves? You keep repeating that you don't justify the shooting and yet you are so completely stuck on this point. Who cares? Maybe this guy refused to buy Girl Scout cookies during his entire lifetime. Maybe he never donated to charity. It would continue to have no bearing on whether or not we should look differently at someone shooting him.

The dick's behavior is not irrelevant. The shooting didn't spontaneous materialize without a chain of events. The events are material facts, even if not mitigating.

Make up your mind--- rudeness is a reasonable cause for a lethally violent response or it isn't. Stop dancing around trying to have the argument both ways.

 

[xbuzzerx]

It was an argument. It escalated to gunfire. Both topics are inherently involved regardless of the desire of some to avoid the reality.

In this case the reality some which to avoid was that this was not two men both drawing guns on each other. This was one guy exceeding absolutely all bounds - legal and otherwise - and pulling out a gun in a fight over a cellphone in a movie theater.

 

[Telstra]

You basically blame the dead for texting his daughter deja which is disgusting !!!
Texting does not effect anyone especially when you are at the back and the texter is at front.

 

[Axxess]

Can you guess which state of the USofA?

Based on the fact that a gun was involved I guessed Texas. Oops.

 

[Telstra]

Who ever has the most to say about other jub members is the most annoying.
They are like chat gossip queens.

 

[Kahaih]

From nydailynews.com

The men began to argue, and it got physical, authorities and witnesses said.

"Somebody throws popcorn. I'm not sure who threw the popcorn," Charles Cummings told reporters outside the theater Monday.

"And then bang, he was shot."

Cummings said Oulson slumped over onto him and his son. He tried to speak, but blood was seeping from his mouth, they said.

So, it 'got physical' before the gun came out? The 43yo man seen in post #16 'got physical' with a 71yo man - to the point where the 43yo man's wife tried to physically stop/restrain her husband - before a gun was produced?

Interesting.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I can't see why his momentary behavior is any less indicative of his character than his murderer's momentary behavior in killing him.

It isn't, but the guy with the gun holds the bigger responsibility here. Especially since he was someone who was on the force before and someone you'd should expect not to react like this on such a smaller situation. There were other ways of handling the situation and as an exp cop you'd think he would know that instead of waving the gun around.

We all deal with dick headed behavior by random people on a daily basis, but guess what? These are more than likely people we will never see or have to deal with again. This guy might be a "dead dick" but it is not like the world is in short stock of dick heads either.

My focus on his from the beginning has been deliberate because this forum has a predictable pattern of rants in the gun control debate. Of note, the bigoted snark by Access just now involving Texas, as if the vast amount of guns in this country are concentrated in "redneck" states. So, Chicago is a redneck epicenter? And LA? Sooo many more senseless murders are carried out every week in thug-on-thug petty conflicts, but the forum is deadly silent about those, as they aren't in the zone of ire that we reserve for the PC topics of choice.

People can post about whatever topics they want to talk about and whether they post about them or not doesn't mean they don't care or not interested in those topics. You aren't one who makes threads about such things either, so what does that say about you? If you think there is a lack of discussion on that part of gun violence then why aren't you posting about it? There are plenty of topics that can be discussed about gun violence but I'm not here to criticize people for not talking about specific cases.

Just as many posters here have that pre-set bias against Florida or Texas, I share a lack of care about assholes who selfishly assert their individuality in a room of 300+ people who gathered to see a movie on a big screen in the dark and paid to do so. It was egoism plain and simple. All the sentimentalism about his daughter is irrelevant. He could have been texting to Grindr, the IRS, or President Obama, and it doesn't matter. His behavior was what it was, and the notion that "yeah, but the little girl was so CUUUTE is just daft."

We all understand that his behaviour was shit but dying over it is not ok and the guy holding holding the bigger responsibility here (the one with the gun) is the "bad guy" here because he is the one who pulled out a weapon that could take someones life away and he did. Like I said earlier he was one who we should expect to understand the responsibility of having such a weapon since he is an ex-cop. You would think and ex-cop would have a better head than to let a heated argument make him draw his gun.

No one deserves to be killed for such an selfish act, but no one deserves to be clothed in white either. He was a selfish and uncaring jerk. Now, he's a dead jerk. I didn't ask for him to be killed. I didn't applaud his death, but I have no more obligation to care about his murder (beyond upholding our laws) than you do to care about some kid who joined a gang and got shot by another gang member on a street corner in a drive-by killing.

I haven't really see anyone do this. So I don't understand why you keep suggesting it. People are saying they he didn't deserve to die even with the rude behaviour. But you can't help but keep driving the nail that he was such a rude person, who didn't deserve to die but have a lack empathy in tact with that.

The predictability of posts in the "what Jubbers look like" thread during such episodes is even more predictable than the threads themselves. We have institutionalized the bathroom stall graffiti in Hot Topics. How like gay high school.

You are predictable yourself cause you tend to delve into this condescending attitude when the discussions get more heated. Also you have a predictable tendency of criticize people for not talking about the right problems (like in this thread) or not doing enough about any "x" subject, as if you do yourself on here.

 

[Willie Boy]

Can you guess which state of the USofA? And who the gun toting have a go "hero" is?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25726591



I think a stand-your-ground defence by the gunman will be inevitable.

A 71 year old retire police officer? His best defense would be dementia or something along those lines.

Why was Mr. Reeves carrying a gun with him to the cinema anyway?

Because he is a 71 year old former police officer. He was possibly suffering from Dementia or Alzheimer's. On the surface its about the only things that would explain his actions.

He should be strung up...hang him from the tallest tree. Save the taxpayers supporting his sorry ass in prison.

He's already 71, it isn't like he'd be in there for long anyway. If he was even sent in the first place.

Note to self--stay out of Florida---it's going to be another stand your ground defense when old man says he felt threatened by texter.

Note to self - go to Florida, take cell phone and own gun to see movie. Like the Boy Scouts say, be prepared.

Law enforcement say this is not a stand your ground defense---get some lawyers involved and we shall see,

A lawyer would probably go the mental route.

Out of all the different ways the situation could have been handled and the first thought was to shoot the man? What is wrong with some people.

Actually the first thought was to get an usher to have the man removed. Either the old coot got confused on the way or nobody would listen. He either already had the gun or he could have retrieved it from his vehicle at that point. When the mind starts to decay a certain point is reached when the individual should not be brought out into society for his/her own protection as well as that of others.

 

[eastofeden]

One thing that occurred to me...the guy he shot probably represented ALL of the guys who gave him alot of crap when he was a police officer. Love them or hate them...or anything in between...Police Officers have to deal with a lot of bullshit. Yeah...some of them are bad themselves and that might be the case with this guy...maybe not...I don't know of course...

I beat the shit out of the big jock school bully in HS...like really kicked his ass bad in front of all his friends...and what he didn't know and I didn't realize until much later is that he was doing to me what my parents had done since I was a kid...they were violent and mentally and physically abusive...I was hospitalized more than once....and since I was completely powerless to do anything about it with my parents when this guy came along and pushed me it was my "last straw"...he pushed all of my buttons. When I was kicking his ass I was kicking theirs as well.

He was a jerk....and I am not sorry that I did it. If I had a gun...I don't know what I would have done. Thank God I didn't.

I am not saying that he deserved to be shot...or that the shooter should not be punished...clearly he should be punished...but having to deal with colossal jerks since the day I was born leaves me with little empathy for them.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I am sure there are a lot of people who own guns who are either cops, ex cops or whatever that dont draw a gun in a heated moment.

Can people please stop with saying he didnt deserve it while pre-facing that with making excuses for the ex-cop? Cause it honestly doesnt sound like "he didnt deserve it" if we are going to come up with excuses for someone who also should have known better in the situation.

 

[eastofeden]

I am sure there are a lot of people who own guns who are either cops, ex cops or whatever that dont draw a gun in a heated moment.

Yeah...we are all "sure" of that. There are circumstances that are unique to every individual however and when you decide to fuck with someone else you would do well to consider that.

Can people please stop with saying he didnt deserve it while pre-facing that with making excuses for the ex-cop? Cause it honestly doesnt sound like "he didnt deserve it" if we are going to come up with excuses for someone who also should have known better in the situation.

In order to understand any situation it requires that you at least try to see things from the perspective of the people involved...

I think the real debate is the gun laws in Florida...or wherever....or carrying concealed weapons at all.

 

[Special K]

The right thing to do would have been to leave the auditorium and file a formal complaint against the offending individual with the proprietors of the establishment and request a refund for the cost of the tickets. However shooting someone dead for being discourteous is just mind-boggling. There really is a need for stricter gun controls in the United States, and before I get accused of not understanding American culture because I'm not American; I am aware that the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution, but the constitution must be considered in the chronological context in which it was written. What may have made sense centuries ago, does not necessarily make sense today.

 

[G-Lexington]

. There really is a need for stricter gun controls in the United States, and before I get accused of not understanding American culture because I'm not American; I am aware that the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution, but the constitution must be considered in the chronological context in which it was written. What may have made sense centuries ago, does not necessarily make sense today.

Anyone who suggests the gun culture of America is simply an outdated tradition stuck in the Constitution shows that they really don't understand the gun culture of America in the slightest. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, though.

Lex

 

[xbuzzerx]

I can't see why his momentary behavior is any less indicative of his character than his murderer's momentary behavior in killing him.

My focus on his from the beginning has been deliberate because this forum has a predictable pattern of rants in the gun control debate. Of note, the bigoted snark by Access just now involving Texas, as if the vast amount of guns in this country are concentrated in "redneck" states. So, Chicago is a redneck epicenter? And LA? Sooo many more senseless murders are carried out every week in thug-on-thug petty conflicts, but the forum is deadly silent about those, as they aren't in the zone of ire that we reserve for the PC topics of choice.

Just as many posters here have that pre-set bias against Florida or Texas, I share a lack of care about assholes who selfishly assert their individuality in a room of 300+ people who gathered to see a movie on a big screen in the dark and paid to do so. It was egoism plain and simple. All the sentimentalism about his daughter is irrelevant. He could have been texting to Grindr, the IRS, or President Obama, and it doesn't matter. His behavior was what it was, and the notion that "yeah, but the little girl was so CUUUTE is just daft."

No one deserves to be killed for such an selfish act, but no one deserves to be clothed in white either. He was a selfish and uncaring jerk. Now, he's a dead jerk. I didn't ask for him to be killed. I didn't applaud his death, but I have no more obligation to care about his murder (beyond upholding our laws) than you do to care about some kid who joined a gang and got shot by another gang member on a street corner in a drive-by killing.

Despite tireless efforts to recast Jayhawk, DonQuixote, myself and others into a vigilante mold, none of us have advocated gunslinging. Plain old vendettas, as always, prevail here. Telly obsesses with his newly-found bold function and his disgusting pearl-clutching. What a poor job of acting. His choice to ignore all others arguing the same point is the evidence. These see-saws are simply excuse du jour to pick up the battle axe and head back to the field to hack away.

The predictability of posts in the "what Jubbers look like" thread during such episodes is even more predictable than the threads themselves. We have institutionalized the bathroom stall graffiti in Hot Topics. How like gay high school.

No one is "clothing him in white" (well, maybe Telstra, but no one listens to him.) If your whole argument here is "stop saying this guy was a saint, he was doing a rude thing at the time the argument occurred" then you are having an argument with yourself, because neither I nor anyone else has said his behavior wasn't rude. On the assumption that you're too intelligent to be repeatedly making an argument against a position no one is taking, one wonders why you keep bringing up he's a dick and then repeating that you don't approve of shooting him for it.

I think what's been discussed goes more to the first paragraph of your post-- you don't really seem to recognize a difference between a gunshot death due to being in gang related activity or some part of the drug trade in a big city and a gunshot death because you were texting in a movie theater. You sneeringly refer to people seeing any difference as the "usual PC" around here. Even more astonishingly, many people in this thread seem to take the latter as having more to do with "rudeness" in America than it has to do with the fact that people who clearly have no business going about their day to day activities with a gun on them are doing so, and it's leading to situations exactly like this one.

News flash people, killing someone is far more serious and far more permanent than experiencing a moment of rudeness from a stranger you likely will never have to deal with again in a mixed public space.

Also the repeated claims that people are merely persecuting old grudges against you and not taking exceptions to the content of what you're posting are tiresome. All you've done here is give us a long rant of the "politics of JUB" and the "politics of posters" and your impression of who is pursuing a grudge against you -- I'm not sure what that has to do with the posts of anyone here except arguably Telstra. The "tireless efforts" to paint you Jayhawk and Don as "vigilantes" is entirely fictional. Almost all of the responses have been to your posts.

 

[Special K]

Anyone who suggests the gun culture of America is simply an outdated tradition stuck in the Constitution shows that they really don't understand the gun culture of America in the slightest. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, though.

Lex

Well could you please explain the gun culture of America to me, because as you have rightly pointed out, I just don't understand it. Here in the United Kingdom, when we hear stories on the news about tragedies like the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting, the Virginia Tech massacre and the Columbine massacre, amongst many others, we are baffled by the laxity of gun controls in the United States. I don't know, maybe I am missing something. I am intrigued to hear a different perspective on the matter, if you don't mind sharing yours.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Well could you please explain the gun culture of America to me, because as you have rightly pointed out, I just don't understand it. Here in the United Kingdom, when we hear stories on the news about tragedies like the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting, the Virginia Tech massacre and the Columbine massacre, amongst many others, we are baffled by the laxity of gun controls in the United States. I don't know, maybe I am missing something. I am intrigued to hear a different perspective on the matter, if you don't mind sharing yours.

Take a look at this thread and how what many people seem to focus on out of the story is the rudeness of the man in the movie theater, not the fact that a guy was sitting in the theater with a gun and clearly lacking the discipline or mental facility to not to use it in a verbal confrontation. That pretty much answers your question about why it's difficult to have sensible discussions about gun control in the U.S.

That's America on guns. They don't blame the gun, and it's always an "argument" when you blame the guy who was carrying the gun around. Blame anything else first. Look at military base shooting some months back-- one of the first things everyone jumped to say was "why wasn't the base better defended?", until some military analysts interviewed pointed out that it was as well defended as just about any military base in the country, and that the rampage was not a result of security being undermanned or anything else. That's typical American logic on guns.

 

[Gentleheart]

If I shot every person I come into contact with that was rude to me, I would be in prison with SEVERAL life sentences.

 

[G-Lexington]

Explaining gun culture in America is like explaining...oh, I don't know - stiff-upper-lippedness in the UK? You can toss out cliches and quips, or you can write paragraphs upon paragraphs, but it's difficult to convey even the most basic aspects of it. And every factoid I throw out will give a bit of education in one direction, but keep most of the rest hidden.

I'll mention a few random aspects of it, which may or may not give a clearer picture.

* The American murder rate has decreased significantly over the past two decades. Ditto gun violence.

* Gun ownership is actually declining. Since 1973, the GSS has been asking Americans whether they keep a gun in their home. In the 1970s, about half of the nation said yes; today only about one-third do.

* The current wrangle in politics over gun control is usually about an "assault weapon ban". The term "assault weapon" is somewhat meaningless, but it refers to a very specific type of gun with very specific type of equipment and specs. The nation appears roughly split down the middle about whether or not to ban this type of gun...which accounts for far fewer than 1% of all guns, and far fewer than 1% of all crime/violence committed by guns. In short, actual "gun control" is America is similar to having the UK discuss whether to ban 30-foot-limos from driving through town, and calling it "car control".

* A goodly number of Americans have a heavy mistrust of their government (even if we'll re-elect them every two years). And yes, many of them own guns. And yes - they feel the very first move the government will want to take towards them will be to disarm them. They consider any attempt at "gun control" as a slippery slope meant to take away their last line of defense at the American government having their way with them. Again, we're not talking pistols and standard rifles - we're talking those assault weapons listed above. And they have roughly half the country on their side.

Lex

 

[Kahaih]

If I shot every person I come into contact with that was rude to me, I would be in prison with SEVERAL life sentences.

The victim wasn't just 'being rude'.

He had been seated in front of, and with his back to, the shooter, but he was shot in the chest.

The same bullet also hit his wife while she was trying to hold him back.

He was facing the shooter and he had to have been standing at the time because after he was shot he dropped/fell across two grown men.

Witnesses have already said that the argument had become physical before the gunshot.