Atheists fed up? Believe it!

[teadrinker]

What an excellent article. I'm not aware if any atheist bashing, so to speak, in my part of the world, but I'm sure there are places where to be an atheist publicly would be very difficult.

-T.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

^ Indonesia is a rather aweful example.

 

[barnbuddy]

Wasn't Jefferson the hypocrite who spoke so eloquently about freedom, and the rights of man despite owning some 150 black slaves; a couple of whom he had sired?

well, the irony is that the section of the US that Jefferson hailed from, the SOUTH, is

the most religious part of my country.

These southerners christians thought it was fine and dandy to buy own and sell people.

you don't see condemnations in the Gospels for owning slaves.

in fact, until the enlightenment there was no effective argument against slavery.

 

[bankside]

idk... when I think of militant atheist, I think of the guys who go out of their way to argue with religious people, incessantly challenge their faith, and just act obnoxiously overall.

my sister is an atheist, but in our entire adult lives, I've never heard her talk about it or shit on other people's beliefs, other than perhaps rolling her eyes when the grandparents pressed her and her husband to baptize their babies (which they did, to make the grandparents happy and collect some free gifts, but any other religious involvement will be up to their kids -- if they want to go to church, the parents won't stand in their way, but they're not going to force them)

See to me the only person being militant in your sister's example is your grandparents. If she had said "Pfff. Of course not!" when they suggested baptism, a lot of people on here (well, at least one anyway) would brand her as being militant and argumentative if she did that.

There are plenty of religious people who do not expect atheists to pay lip service to their beliefs. And there are also religious people who do feel so entitled. And I don't get why atheists, or anyone for that matter, should go along with it.

If that is militant, so be it. Last month I went out for dinner and militantly declined the dessert menu. Just yesterday, the shoe store offered me leather protector with my purchase; again militantly refused. LOL.

 

[kallipolis]

well, the irony is that the section of the US that Jefferson hailed from, the SOUTH, is

the most religious part of my country.

These southerners christians thought it was fine and dandy to buy own and sell people.

you don't see condemnations in the Gospels for owning slaves.

in fact, until the enlightenment there was no effective argument against slavery.

Is Virginia that far, south?

At the time of the creation of the new republic there was a nation wide debate in being on the morality of slave ownership with Jefferson, and Washington being confronted by their own countrymen, with cries of hypocrisy when they were preaching freedom, and the rights of man despite being slave owners.

I'll quote the relevant section from a Wikipedia article on Jefferson's views on slavery.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Views_of_slaves_and_blacks


Jefferson inherited slaves as a child, and owned upwards of 700 different people at one time or another.[111] The historian Herbert E. Sloan says that Jefferson's debt prevented his freeing his slaves, but [112] Finkelman says that freeing slaves was "not even a mildly important goal" of Jefferson, who preferred to spend lavishly on luxury goods like wine and French chairs.[95]

Isaac Jefferson, ca. 1847, a blacksmith who worked as a slave on Jefferson's plantation. His interview was later published in 1842 as Memoirs of a Monticello Slave. His account provided details to historians about life at Monticello. [113]
According to historian Stephen Ambrose: "Jefferson, like all slaveholders and many others, regarded Negroes as inferior, childlike, untrustworthy and, of course, as property."[114] He believed they were inferior to whites in reasoning, mathematical comprehension, and imagination. Jefferson thought these "differences" were "fixed in nature" and was not dependent on their freedom or education.[100] He thought such differences that created the "innate inferiority of Blacks compared to Whites".


Jefferson did not believe that African Americans could live in American society as free people together with whites.[115] For a long-term solution, he thought that slaves should be freed after reaching maturity and having repaid their owner's investment; afterward, he thought they should be sent to African colonies in what he considered "repatriation", despite their being American-born. Otherwise, he thought the presence of free blacks would encourage a violent uprising by slaves' looking for freedom.[116] Jefferson expressed his fear of slave rebellion: "We have the wolf by the ears; and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other."[117]

In 1809, he wrote to Abbé Grégoire, whose book argued against Jefferson's claims of black inferiority in Notes on the State of Virginia. Jefferson said blacks had "respectable intelligence", but did not alter his views.[118][119] In August 1814 the planter Edward Coles and Jefferson corresponded about Coles' ideas on emancipation. Jefferson urged Coles not to free his slaves, but the younger man took all his slaves to the free state of Illinois and freed them.

 

[joshBTW]

Atheism FTW!

 

[bankside]

Is Virginia that far, south?

At the time of the creation of the new republic there was a nation wide debate in being on the morality of slave ownership with Jefferson, and Washington being confronted by their own countrymen, with cries of hypocrisy when they were preaching freedom, and the rights of man despite being slave owners.

I'll quote the relevant section from a Wikipedia article on Jefferson's views on slavery.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Views_of_slaves_and_blacks


Jefferson inherited slaves as a child, and owned upwards of 700 different people at one time or another.[111] The historian Herbert E. Sloan says that Jefferson's debt prevented his freeing his slaves, but [112] Finkelman says that freeing slaves was "not even a mildly important goal" of Jefferson, who preferred to spend lavishly on luxury goods like wine and French chairs.[95]

Isaac Jefferson, ca. 1847, a blacksmith who worked as a slave on Jefferson's plantation. His interview was later published in 1842 as Memoirs of a Monticello Slave. His account provided details to historians about life at Monticello. [113]
According to historian Stephen Ambrose: "Jefferson, like all slaveholders and many others, regarded Negroes as inferior, childlike, untrustworthy and, of course, as property."[114] He believed they were inferior to whites in reasoning, mathematical comprehension, and imagination. Jefferson thought these "differences" were "fixed in nature" and was not dependent on their freedom or education.[100] He thought such differences that created the "innate inferiority of Blacks compared to Whites".


Jefferson did not believe that African Americans could live in American society as free people together with whites.[115] For a long-term solution, he thought that slaves should be freed after reaching maturity and having repaid their owner's investment; afterward, he thought they should be sent to African colonies in what he considered "repatriation", despite their being American-born. Otherwise, he thought the presence of free blacks would encourage a violent uprising by slaves' looking for freedom.[116] Jefferson expressed his fear of slave rebellion: "We have the wolf by the ears; and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other."[117]

In 1809, he wrote to Abbé Grégoire, whose book argued against Jefferson's claims of black inferiority in Notes on the State of Virginia. Jefferson said blacks had "respectable intelligence", but did not alter his views.[118][119] In August 1814 the planter Edward Coles and Jefferson corresponded about Coles' ideas on emancipation. Jefferson urged Coles not to free his slaves, but the younger man took all his slaves to the free state of Illinois and freed them.

Kallipolis despite having conceded Jefferson's eloquence, you seek to undermine the validity of his point, not just to establish him as a hypocrite.

Wasn't Jefferson the hypocrite who spoke so eloquently about freedom, and the rights of man despite owning some 150 black slaves; a couple of whom he had sired?

Yes. He was that hypocrite. And yet he did speak so eloquently about freedom. And when Jefferson said:

Question with boldness even the existence of God'.

he was right.

If you wish to add to his list of sins for which divine absolution might be hoped, though never granted, you could speak about the disenfranchisement of women. Or perhaps the non-enfranchisement of women, given that voting was not previously permitted to them any more than equality and freedom were permitted to slaves.

He spoke eloquently about freedom whilst wantonly denying women the vote! He was not far enough ahead of his time! How dare he! Oh, I feel an anti-Jeffersonian tantrum coming on!

 

[kallipolis]

Kallipolis despite having conceded Jefferson's eloquence, you seek to undermine the validity of his point, not just to establish him as a hypocrite.

Yes. He was that hypocrite. And yet he did speak so eloquently about freedom. And when Jefferson said:

he was right.

If you wish to add to his list of sins for which divine absolution might be hoped, though never granted, you could speak about the disenfranchisement of women. Or perhaps the non-enfranchisement of women, given that voting was not previously permitted to them any more than equality and freedom were permitted to slaves.

He spoke eloquently about freedom whilst wantonly denying women the vote! He was not far enough ahead of his time! How dare he! Oh, I feel an anti-Jeffersonian tantrum coming on!

You are introducing a distraction that I do not intend to address, for there was no sensitivity on this matter among Americans during Jefferson's life time.

During Jefferson's time slavery was already understood as an abomination by very many citizens of the new republic.

A French Catholic priest, the Abbe Gregoire was in correspondence with Jefferson, specifically on the matter of slave ownership, as a result of the priest denouncing Jefferson's claims of black inferiority in a popular book that represented the views of the newly emerging enlightenment in France.

Jefferson, and Washington were very well aware that their ownership of slaves was being questioned, by their fellow Americans as a result of their own very clearly enunciated speeches on the rights of man.

 

[bankside]

You are introducing a distraction that I do not intend to address, for there was no sensitivity on this matter among Americans during Jefferson's life time.

During Jefferson's time slavery was already understood as an abomination by very many citizens of the new republic.

That is a good point in the context of this discussion. Consider Jefferson's views on equal rights for women to be taken off the table, unless anyone else would care to take up that point.

Which returns us to the distraction you introduced which I do intend to address:

Jefferson's slaveholding shows him to be a hypocrite on questions of liberty. It does not establish that his eloquent speech on liberty is wrong: it shows that he fails according to his own standards. It is immaterial to his point, which stands on its own.

'Question with boldness even the existence of God.'

 

[kallipolis]

That is a good point in the context of this discussion. Consider Jefferson's views on equal rights for women to be taken off the table, unless anyone else would care to take up that point.

Which returns us to the distraction you introduced which I do intend to address:

Jefferson's slaveholding shows him to be a hypocrite on questions of liberty. It does not establish that his eloquent speech on liberty is wrong: it shows that he fails according to his own standards. It is immaterial to his point, which stands on its own.

I have no qualms with Jefferson's statement on always questioning the existence of God. Had I, I would have stated so. All people of authentic faith in God must question that faith for them to continue to justify that faithfulness. To fail to so do is to question the validity of that faith.

You persist with your distraction on voting rights for women, when I choose to address the credibility of Thomas Jefferson, as an advocate of freedom, and the rights of man.

When a politician speaks so eloquently on freedom, and the rights of man there is a presumption that he should practise all that he preaches. Thomas Jefferson did not. Even his peers questioned his credibility.

Which brings me to the point of Jefferson's words on the existence of God, that might well suggest once again there is a gap between what Jefferson preaches, and what he practices in the light of refusing to sell his slaves as a measure of his willingness to support freedom, and the rights of man for all people, and not just white Anglo Saxon Protestants - even Deists.

 

[bankside]

there as no real discussion or anything... my sister and her husband just knew that getting their children baptized would make their parents happy and they saw nothing wrong with going through the motions for their sake.

No disagreement there, just hoping you wouldn't have considered her to be "militant" if she'd said instead "Sorry Grandma; the idea of a baptism just isn't meaningful to us and we're choosing not to have our kids do that. They can make up their own minds when they're older," or something else like that.

did you decline the dessert menu and then spend the rest of the dinner trash talking everyone who did order dessert and lecturing them on the unhealthiness of sweets? because that's what I meant by "militant."

similar to a religious person who's always trying to convert people.

LOL no. But have you ever been to a restaurant where they give you stink eye just because you're too full for dessert? I have been (once) to a restaurant where I got the distinct impression they thought we owed it to them to eat dessert too....

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

What exactly are atheists fed up about? I haven't seen or even heard of many atheists being fired for their beliefs, but I have seen numbers of people fired for just wearing a cross. Christians, and especially Muslims, have been sued for expressing their religion. Just look at how many threads on this board alone express anti-religious thoughts, and how virulent they get. I appreciate that there are bigoted religious, but there are bigots in any group; how many anti-breeder bigots does any gay man know of?

I get that there are people that, um, express their views a little loudly and these people need to get a clue. But that applies to both sides of any fence....

RG

 

[astro ivan]

Yea I don't understand this statement either. Being gay AND being an atheist are still considered taboo among a great deal of our society.

My family knows I'm gay, but I've yet to tell them I'm an atheist. You might be surprised how some people I know stigmatize atheists, yet are accepting of gay people.

My family knows i am an atheist. I get stigmatized more about that from my grandparents and relatives than my parents.

I can only image what will happen if i tell that i am gay to my family

 

[GiacomoPisani]

uffff religion...i can't stand it,i remember when i was a child my aunt gave me a bible for the first time and i can't explain it but the book itself pisses me off,it makes me angry somehow,even to this day and i don't know why, but every time i read something jesus christ said i want to punch his face and kick his ass until i get tired.

 

[HoodedRat]

uffff religion...i can't stand it,i remember when i was a child my aunt gave me a bible for the first time and i can't explain it but the book itself pisses me off,it makes me angry somehow,even to this day and i don't know why, but every time i read something jesus christ said i want to punch his face and kick his ass until i get tired.

That's a rather extreme reaction to a collection of myths, legends, and fantasy tales.

 

[belamyi]

I've often wondered what would American people, or people simply living in America, think of a moody neighbor or working partner hailing from Spain who, not actually/technically being an atheist, would spit "¡¡Me cago en Dios!!" (that should be "I poop/shit/crap on God!!" to Anglospeakers... or maybe something more like "Me poops/shits/craps/ on Gods"..?) whenever he gets upset for something.

 

[bankside]

They probably wouldn't be any more surprised by a european pooping on god than they are that europeans use bidets.

 

[belamyi]

They probably wouldn't be any more surprised by a european pooping on god than they are that europeans use bidets.

Or the fact that millions of urban Spaniards, even today, own a vacation home/second home by the sea or in the mountains, because the first one is so friggin' small it would fit into the living room/garage/toolshed of any Peckerwood... literally

 

[bankside]

Or the fact that millions of urban Spaniards, even today, own a vacation home/second home by the sea or in the mountains, because the first one is so friggin' small it would fit into the living room/garage/toolshed of any Peckerwood... literally

Oh. That's delightful. I've seen that in different regions of my own country. In Alberta people want one house, new, as big as possible. (And covered with as much low-maintenance vinyl siding or stucco as they can get.)

In Manitoba, people are happy with a smaller bungalow, but they will work their asses off for a cottage at the lake.

I think everything is probably larger compared to European use of space, even in Manitoba. But the principle is the same.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_siz_of_hou-people-size-of-houses

 

[belamyi]

Oh. That's delightful. I've seen that in different regions of my own country. In Alberta people want one house, new, as big as possible. (And covered with as much low-maintenance vinyl siding or stucco as they can get.)

In Manitoba, people are happy with a smaller bungalow, but they will work their asses off for a cottage at the lake.

I think everything is probably larger compared to European use of space, even in Manitoba. But the principle is the same.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_siz_of_hou-people-size-of-houses

Those 4 mil. sq mi in lovely four-season freezing-cold-chilly&cool, halfway-to-the-North-Pole, The Middle of Nowhere, have to be put to some use

I guess for Canadians it's equally middle-class-cool to own a trailer, failing a second home, or even to have one as a holiday home and move there after retiring to enjoy the wonders and pleasures of Nature.


By now someone else should have posted this, or linked to it, so I am doing it myself now:

It's ridiculous to think Atheists are being singled out for being themselves: they are hated for belonging to a different sect, as it has always been the case ever since the dawn of prudishness&righteousness. But the fact that American culture has been built on a moderate hatred of religious sects, particularly all the trailing array of Christian ones, has made people believe that there has never been a problem of hate between sects... it simply burned à petit feu instead of with blasts.