Barbara Boxer - not her finest moment

[springboksfan]

Thanks to everyone (especially our fine moderator) for proving my point...none of you leftists see 9-11 as a "Pearl Harbor" moment. I guess you will need a catastrophic nuclear event to wake up. When that happens, I am sure all of you will blame it on Bush. That is, if they don't pick Montreal. Which reminds me, I really have to get out and see Manhattan one more time before it is nuclear dust.

Actually, my dear Kev, I do see 9-11 as a Pearl Harbor moment and have since the second plane hit. I still think you gotta give 'em props for using our own planes. I never saw that one coming. I mean, how more innocent could it look at first sight? "Wow, that United pilot's either drunk or confused as all hell." That sort of thing. As for the nuclear event, well I think we're a ways from that right now. But the longer we keep up this ridiculous "war on terror" and "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here," the closer it comes.

When I am not down at the Gas-n-Go having donuts, coffee, and dipping Copenhagen, I don't have much time to watch TV.

You dip? That's hot! Tell me, do you wear Wrangler Cowboy cut jeans, too? Man, Kev, you're making me see you in a totally different light. Here I thought you were a propaganda-believing Republican with no hope of redemption. Now I see anything is possible! Call me some time, big boy! I'm ready to save a horse!

But when I do, I usually don't watch the History Channel. I actually have a degree in history, and that taught me to do two things: read (I prefer paper over screens) and think. The latter has spurred me to form my own opinions.

I, too, have a degree in History. I'm glad we're on the same page here. Reading paper is one helluva lot better than digital. It's a shame we're so far apart on that thinking thing. It's still a wonder to me how two people can see the same event and come up with diametrically opposite conclusions. But we'll get there.

And I look forward to the day that Americans will present a united front against radical Islamic jihadists (refer to my first paragraph above). It's too bad that so many will have to die on our soil before that happens.

Interestingly put. Conversely, "I look forward to the day that Muslims will present a united front against radical American Christian Imperialists. It's too bad that so many have had to die on our soil before that happens." You see? There is no "right and wrong" in this fight, Kev. It's all a matter of perspective. And right now, those "radical Islamic jihadists" you refer to are fighting for their very survival on their own soil.

"N" is not the letter I would think of first when thinking of Senator Boxer. I just think she is stupid.

Why? Is it the "D" behind her name, Kev? Is it that she's not spouting the Administration's talking points? Is it that she's trying to put a human face on this "war" for an Administration that is do blinded by its own intrigues and propaganda that it fails to comprehend that actual young, brave American men and women are being badly maimed and killed? You confuse me.

 

[springboksfan]

come on Nick

chill a little

I didn't attack u

Actually, Chance, you did. Watch yourself because we are. Understood? I thought so.

 

[OtterJoq]

It is wrong for the media to quote the "childless" portion of her remarks to Sec Rice, without including the preface where Boxer included herself.
That prejudicial omission plus the entire context of Boxers comments showed astute political acumen.

Amen! Just try telling that to the right-wing media whores (FOX, Coulter, etc.). They've never been too interested in the truth; they make too much money spinning and pandering to their lunatic base.

 

[NickCole]

Thanks to everyone (especially our fine moderator) for proving my point...none of you leftists see 9-11 as a "Pearl Harbor" moment.

If 9/11 was a Pearl Harbor moment then Bush attacking Iraq in response was as if FDR had attacked Thailand as a response to Pearl Harbor.

I guess you will need a catastrophic nuclear event to wake up. When that happens, I am sure all of you will blame it on Bush. That is, if they don't pick Montreal. Which reminds me, I really have to get out and see Manhattan one more time before it is nuclear dust.

I live in Manhattan and I was downtown on 9/11 when the planes hit.

I'm awake.

And if there's a catastrophic nuclear event coming from "Islamic jihadists" then you're damned right I'll hold Bush partly responsible. Our response to 9/11 should have been to rally a strong allied front and destroy al Qaeda (in addition to other action involving our national security), not attack a sovereign nation that was no threat to us and had nothing to do with 9/11.

Bush has made the situation worse, not better.

 

[texpatriot]

Thanks to everyone (especially our fine moderator) for proving my point...none of you leftists see 9-11 as a "Pearl Harbor" moment. I guess you will need a catastrophic nuclear event to wake up. When that happens, I am sure all of you will blame it on Bush. That is, if they don't pick Montreal. Which reminds me, I really have to get out and see Manhattan one more time before it is nuclear dust.

So please allow me to address the premise behind your post here, and your Pearl Harbor analogy.

Days after the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 Congress created an investigation committee to determine what went wrong within the intelligence and military that would allow the Japanese to attack us without warning. They did this immediatly after giving FDR his Declaration for War against Germany, and Japan.

See, I'm a student of history too.

What did GWB do when a similiar investigation was called for immediately following the attacks on the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001?

He said NO! He refused to have an full out investigation except to blame the intelligence community. So instead he gave us the Department of Homeland Security. The largest build up and consolidation of government power since FDR's New Deal.

He did finally relent to a 9/11 Commission, if for no other reason than to get the greiving survivors and their families off his back.

Five years after the 9/11 attacks, and nearly two years after the 9/11 Commission presented its report and recommendations, where are we?

Oh that's right, fighting an unrelated war in Iraq, and less than half of the recommendations of the 9/11 commission put in place.

Security recommendations mind you!

To secure our ports to prevent containers ships loaded with nuclear or biological weapons from entering into our country.

To secure our borders, which has turned into an immigration nightmare, which only highlights how ineffective both parties have been in enforcing our existing immigration laws!

So my suggestion would for you is to find a nice little island in the South Pacific somewhere, if you're so afraid of living under a document as sacred as the United States Constitution which requires oversight between the branches of government.

What you should be looking for is either a theocratic state, or a fascist regime or both. That way you can feel safe chewing your tobacco and scratching off your lotto tickets knowing that one party is looking after your best interests!

When I am not down at the Gas-n-Go having donuts, coffee, and dipping Copenhagen, I don't have much time to watch TV. But when I do, I usually don't watch the History Channel.

I suspect when you do watch television it's probably either the World Wrestling Federation, or The O'Reilly factor!

I actually have a degree in history, and that taught me to do two things: read (I prefer paper over screens) and think. The latter has spurred me to form my own opinions.

Ooooh, a "free thinker." That sounds pretty liberal to me.

And I look forward to the day that Americans will present a united front against radical Islamic jihadists (refer to my first paragraph above). It's too bad that so many will have to die on our soil before that happens.

Typically right wing, fear-mongering, gobbly-dee gook.

If GWB was more of a "Uniter" than a "Divider" we wouldn't be having this converstation because each of us would be behind this "war on terrorism" instead of serving plattitudes, and half baked war plans while the rest of America watches "reality television."

"N" is not the letter I would think of first when thinking of Senator Boxer. I just think she is stupid.

But somehow she got elected to the United States Senate and you didn't.

Not on your life baby doll (refer to my first paragraph above).

Okay, then let's go and get some donuts, and a couple of scratch off tickets!

 

[Andreus]

i also want to add this

if Al Queda had been dealt with directly this impending civil war would have been much less violent.

Al Queda has turned muslim against muslim, as it tries to fundamentalize the entire faith. IF he had been more weakened, many lives would have been saved, and all muslims worldwide would have been helped.

this idea that he did the region and its people a favor is a joke.

boxer and her party need to constantly remind the Bush admin that this is not a video game. there are real people dying every day and every choice destroys not only the life of that individual, but the lives of their husbands, wives, children, mothers, fathers, and freinds.

the human element is what is missing in the Bush Rice equation. Congressional oversight is there just for this reason. to make sure we all remember that americans VALUE life above all else.

 

[NickCole]

The real problem at the National political level is that everybody is too busy shouting at each other (or running for President) to spend time on really solving alot of our issues. It is always easier to try to place blame than spend the needed time and energy to come up with workable solutions.

The Iraq Study Group came up with a clear and cohesive plan to deal with the mess in Iraq as it is today.

It was a bipartisan group of some of the best minds in our nation and it respectfully presented a comprehensive plan. But Bush & Co ignored it.

Democrats also have suggested workable solutions, or at least ideas that are well deserving of full honest discussion. And so have some Republicans.

The problem is not that nobody spends time on solving the issue. The problem is that Bush & Co will not listen to anybody unless they say what Bush & Co want to hear. That was bad enough before so many of their decisions resulted in failure and disaster. But now it's just plain tragic that they continue to ignore input from others and rely only on their own bad judgement.

Thank goodness for elected officials like Barbara Boxer who have the courage to say what needs to be said even though they know they're going to be ground through the usual Rovian smear machine.

 

[NW007]

^I can't believe the posts I read on these threads that the posters don't think our leaders(both elected officials and miltary leaders) don't value human life.

You need to have a thorough understanding of our political system plus our command and staff procedures; to completely understand the responsibilities of our leaders. To think that our decision makers don't understand or appreciate this is foolish talk.

Let's get off this talk about our leaders enjoying these decison's. It is amazing how people talk about deaths on one subject, but don't get worked up over the many more American deaths that occur all the time on our highways. Think about what those totals would be if the nightly news tallied those totals daily.

Finally, the bigger issue is that we are dealing with adversaries who don't value human life at all. It is often hard to fight or defend against such people.

 

[Andreus]

why should we believe that the bush and rice value life?

either they did not check to see how many deaths their actions would cause, or they did, and are suppressing the figures.

that is just the bottom line, RR

I honestly dont know which is worse, but since Bush has a history of lying for political gain and openly admitting it, i tend to believe he is suppressing these figures and Boxer wants them to come out..... remember the Rumsfeld thing?

I think we need to stay tuned.

this little dispute is far from over. Lawyers build a case as they ask questions, and i think boxer is building one. it is entirely posible that some of this stuff has been ruled secret and sensitive, and while she has seen it, is not allowed to openly acnowledge it.

 

[NW007]

I wonder where some of the current Senator's(like Boxer) would have been in terms of valuing life back in either WWII or The American Civil War?

 

[Hearts]

Since a lot of people, not just on this thread, are focusing on one or two sentences of Sen. Boxer's statements, does that make the sentences "Boxer's shorts"?

 

[NW007]

The Iraq Study Group came up with a clear and cohesive plan to deal with the mess in Iraq as it is today.

It was a bipartisan group of some of the best minds in our nation and it respectfully presented a comprehensive plan. But Bush & Co ignored it.

Democrats also have suggested workable solutions, or at least ideas that are well deserving of full honest discussion. And so have some Republicans.

The problem is not that nobody spends time on solving the issue. The problem is that Bush & Co will not listen to anybody unless they say what Bush & Co want to hear. That was bad enough before so many of their decisions resulted in failure and disaster. But now it's just plain tragic that they continue to ignore input from others and rely only on their own bad judgement.

Thank goodness for elected officials like Barbara Boxer who have the courage to say what needs to be said even though they know they're going to be ground through the usual Rovian smear machine.

Well, evidently President and others have not seen those quote "workable solutions" in real form presented to him. Over the weekend the President again mentioned that he would welcome real solutions rather than just criticism Yes, there was the Iraq study though it received plenty of criticism from both sides of the aisle. So, what would you and others like the President to talk to Iran and syrian about?? Do you have any doubt what Iran's and Syrian's objectives are??

 

[Andreus]

Well, evidently President and others have not seen those quote "workable solutions" in real form presented to him. Over the weekend the President again mentioned that he would welcome real solutions rather than just criticism Yes, there was the Iraq study though it received plenty of criticism from both sides of the aisle. So, what would you and others like the President to talk to Iran and syrian about?? Do you have any doubt what Iran's and Syrian's objectives are??

the president has had the congressional report given to him and he has had the commision report given to him

if the president says no one has given him any other solutions he is lying and bending the truth

note he said workable solutions?

that means that if you disagree with him, the solutions you offer dont count.

that is called dishonesty. he is injtentionaly misleading the public with partisan rhetoric. it would not be quite as bad if so many lives were not at stake. to say that no one has offered any other options is just ludicrous and anyone informed, about 2/3rd of america, knows it.

he isnt fooling anyone.

 

[NW007]

the president has had the congressional report given to him and he has had the commision report given to him

if the president says no one has given him any other solutions he is lying and bending the truth

note he said workable solutions?

that means that if you disagree with him, the solutions you offer dont count.

that is called dishonesty. he is injtentionaly misleading the public with partisan rhetoric. it would not be quite as bad if so many lives were not at stake. to say that no one has offered any other options is just ludicrous and anyone informed, about 2/3rd of america, knows it.

he isnt fooling anyone.

In one paragraph, please tell me the proper solution that solves all the issues.

 

[Andreus]

In one paragraph, please tell me the proper solution that solves all the issues.

it took the committee nine months to come up with 79 interdependant actions suggested

do you really think it can be stated in one paragraph?

has all of america's attention span suddenly been reduced to the length of a sound bite?

Lancelva recently posted the plan in another thread that the democrats came up with. i think they announced it about six months ago.

you need to inform yourself. it is the responsibility of every american voter to reach out for the truth and find it, not wait for it to be delivered to them.

 

[springboksfan]

I wonder where some of the current Senator's(like Boxer) would have been in terms of valuing life back in either WWII or The American Civil War?

Did you really just say that? This has to be one of the most ridiculous fallacies I've seen on this board--and believe me, I've seen aplenty! As this is generally ICO's area, I'll leave further comment for him.

 

[NW007]

Did you really just say that? This has to be one of the most ridiculous fallacies I've seen on this board--and believe me, I've seen aplenty! As this is generally ICO's area, I'll leave further comment for him.

This in fact was a discussion item the other night on TV, not Fox by the way, that was discussing the tremendous toll of lives and lack of support for Lincoln at the lowest point for the Civil War; and also in regard to Rossevelt during the low point of WWII.

the discussion dealt with the lack of support, the heavy critcism, and what would have been the outcome if either President had caved.

By the way, you were taking my ccomment out of context in regard to the broader question I was talking about.

 

[NW007]

Of course you do, because the conflict in the Middle East, WWII and The Civil war are so similar.

We are talking about valueing human lives here and relating that to decision making process. We aren't discussing similarities to the types of war.

 

[NW007]

it took the committee nine months to come up with 79 interdependant actions suggested

do you really think it can be stated in one paragraph?

has all of america's attention span suddenly been reduced to the length of a sound bite?

Lancelva recently posted the plan in another thread that the democrats came up with. i think they announced it about six months ago.

you need to inform yourself. it is the responsibility of every american voter to reach out for the truth and find it, not wait for it to be delivered to them.

You missed the entire point of my question to you. No, I am not looking for sound bite solutions. My point was that various posters continually post their opposition to the present strategy, yet don't propose what their solution would be(simply stated is what I was looking for). I don't want to put words into your outh, so I was looking for your own version of a solution. The opposition to the current strategy hammers the current strategy yet I don't hear concrete steps(don't say the Iraq Study) for thats a poltical science class type discussion.

Yes and in terms of one paragraphs, ,many of your posts are very long paragraphs, so it can be any length

 

[chance1]

Did you really just say that? This has to be one of the most ridiculous fallacies I've seen on this board--and believe me, I've seen aplenty! As this is generally ICO's area, I'll leave further comment for him.

Disagree spring

can't have it both ways - you or BB