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On Topic Discussion Being Out and Proud offers little in return

I used to work a corporate purchasing job and my husband is an architect. My best friend is a rocket scientist who works for NASA. My brother works for a major software company and his brother works for a major retailer and we're all out. Stop making excuses for your own lack of spine. I know it sucks. But it's not my fault. Stop blaming me for your inability to come out. And stop making excuses like "they'd see me different." That's just your baggage.

The problem with a subject as subjective as the one we're discussing is there is no universal experience and often times people bring in their anecdotal evidence, which is totally fine. However, because by its nature there is no such thing as a universal experience, sometimes the anecdotes turn out to be more exceptions than the rule.

Here's an analogy that's a little over the top to make a point. Can we all agree that during the times of slavery, it wasn't a rosey time for black people? If you look hard enough, you're always going to find certain black individuals that thrived under such times.

Being out and proud works for many people. I've no doubt of it. My personal experience regarding being out hasn't been as rosey as your experience. As a matter of fact, I'm feeling a little bit of jealousy that things have been very smooth for you.

My fear is closeted bigots, while probably few and far in between, blend right in with everybody else. I had the misfortune of stumbling into their nesting ground a few years back. As a result, I lost everything, from my job to my money to my self-esteem and everything else in between. I didn't even realize what had been done to me until much later when I had pulled myself out of the ditch and was able to think back through the sequences of events with a clear mind.

The firm that I currently work for has treated me exceptionally well. The people I work with are exceptionally friendly. We BBQ together at work right outside our offices! Here's the thing. The people in the other company were just as friendly. And I ended up in a ditch because someone noticed I was always using a gender neutral term when asked about my significant other. I think I mentioned my boyfriend once, may be twice at most.

As I said earlier in the thread, real world closet bigots aren't like in the movies at all. In the movies, everything is obvious because the producer made it obvious so everyone in the audience can understand. And there's always that heroic lawyer that digs up everything and the court of law is the gay victim's friend. The real world isn't like that at all. Closet bigots make things very subtle. The really good ones will convince you to hate yourself and not worthy. They will make sure that nothing can be proven at all.

Ever seen the movie Gone Girl? Remember how elaborate her plan was leading up to framing him for murder? She built up journal and physical evidence over time. I can say for sure that's what more or less happened to me. And I believed them.

What I'm trying to say is not all of us are heroes. God bless you for being completely out. You are very heroic. It's just not for all of us. In my case, I have way too much to lose, so I'm not even going to dip my toe in the water to try it out. Not this time.

Perhaps one day this won't even be an issue. But for now, I'm sorry to say that I'm still surrounded by smiling people and I'm scared of what they might do next.

Added by edit.

Regarding what happened to me, I have not told anyone in real life except my boyfriend. And even then, it took him over a year to get me to tell him. I think he knew but didn't say anything.

Why don't I tell people? Because every single thing that happened to me can be explained by something else. It's the totality of the circumstance that finally made me realize the truth. And if it took me that long to piece all of it together, how am I suppose to make someone else understand? So, it's better just to tell people nowadays that that job wasn't a good fit for me.
 
First of all, you know very little about me so what baggage? Other than me being not out to everyone at work? Is that baggage?

PS: You live in a very openly gay part of California. If I had to guess, I'd say san fransisco's gay district, and you being "out" doesn't take away from the fact that you're a pretty lousy person and it doesn't mean that you're better than anyone so spare us the speech about how you're so amazing when your purpose in life is mopping up jizz from a gay4pay drug addicted porn star.

That must be one of the nastiest posts I have read here in a long time. Someone needs to learn a little control or stop pretending to be as noxious as that would like us to think them.
 
I'm assuming you'll be able to discount my anecdotes the same way you did Soil's, but...

One of my gay friends works in the health care field as a field manager. Another works in the governor's office. A third works a mid-level office manager where (for some reason I'm a bit unclear on) most of his co-workers are Mormon. And yeah, I work in the entertainment field, which is notoriously more gay-friendly than most. But I also work with my share of CCM artists who do 90% of their gigs in mega-churches and religious retreats. And while I can't guarantee that all of them know I'm gay (see my definition above), I know at least two do since I introduced them to my boyfriend as "my boyfriend". Furthermore, as I've said before, previously I worked in an auto parts warehouse...back in the mid 90s...in what was termed the "Hate State" for its voter-passed amendment barring any "special" rights for gays. And I got my first gig in a small town in New Mexico.

And yes, all of us are out. Not in some tiny enclave of whimsical gay tolerance, but in a moderate-sized city near the middle of the country. Have we run into any homophobia? Yes. Has it been worth being out? I can't answer for them but I sure as hell think so.

...and sorry-not-sorry if you think I'm trying to make this thread about me now. :)

ZK - do you think this guy (or group of guys) wanted you gone simply because you were gay? Or did he covet your position, or considered you an obstacle towards what he wanted?

Lex
 
First of all, you know very little about me so what baggage? Other than me being not out to everyone at work? Is that baggage?

No, but it's certainly indicative of baggage you probably have....

PS: You live in a very openly gay part of California. If I had to guess, I'd say san fransisco's gay district, and you being "out" doesn't take away from the fact that you're a pretty lousy person and it doesn't mean that you're better than anyone so spare us the speech about how you're so amazing when your purpose in life is mopping up jizz from a gay4pay drug addicted porn star.


Well no... Actually I live in Silverlake which is a district in Los Angeles. It's mostly straight hipsters, but my actual small neighborhood is mostly Latino families.

And while the above was clearly a very failed attempt to her my feelings, it really just made it clear that I hit a pretty big nerve. So... sorry about that. Sometimes I don't know my own strength.

I think We've already touched on my personal life in this thread... my job making porn (I don't generally use "Gay4Pay" performers) is just my day job. I also have a side gig making mainstream movies and videos. I have been married for 23 years, I do a lot of riding around the state on my motorcycle with my club, I collect vinyl and spend a lot of time taking pictures with my film cameras. I love to read.

In other words... my purpose in life is to get out and enjoy all it has to offer and I don't allow what anyone else might think of me to hold me back. Life is way too short to be worried about stupid shit like that.

Oh... and the jizz is generally cleaned up by the production assistant, not the director.
 
My personal experience regarding being out hasn't been as rosey as your experience. As a matter of fact, I'm feeling a little bit of jealousy that things have been very smooth for you.

Oh don't think life has been "smooth" for me. Life is hard. But life is hard regardless of whether you're out or not.

I find that a lot of people blame their unhappiness on being gay or short or fat or something else out of their control.

It's easier to blame things out of your control than place the blame on yourself or just accept that sometimes life sucks and you have to get back up and keep fighting.
 
It's you who have missed the point. If you say some cis asshole, newsflash! you're using it negatively. An asshole is an asshole.

This is somewhat off topic but it is an excellent point. The term was used negatively.


PS: You live in a very openly gay part of California. If I had to guess, I'd say san fransisco's gay district, and you being "out" doesn't take away from the fact that you're a pretty lousy person and it doesn't mean that you're better than anyone so spare us the speech about how you're so amazing when your purpose in life is mopping up jizz from a gay4pay drug addicted porn star.

Oh gawd this is so fucking funny! :rotflmao:
 
Oh don't think life has been "smooth" for me. Life is hard. But life is hard regardless of whether you're out or not.

I find that a lot of people blame their unhappiness on being gay or short or fat or something else out of their control.

It's easier to blame things out of your control than place the blame on yourself or just accept that sometimes life sucks and you have to get back up and keep fighting.

And this is exactly why I've only told my experience to my boyfriend after he twisted my arm for months.

I agree that life can sometime suck and you have to get back up and keep fighting. I realize that. What do you think I'm doing?

But that doesn't negate the fact that I, and others like me, might give ourselves a disadvantage, no matter how unlike or slight it may be, to be fully out.

I was in my 20's when I lost everything. I was young enough to fully recover from it. I'm now 30, so I'm not quite sure I can go through that again.
 
Oh gawd this is so fucking funny! :rotflmao:

Well it is... but not in the way either of you think.

It's funny that on a porn site, a guy who has told us how into G4P men he is... tried to hurt my feelings with a rather half-assed slag about G4P porn stars.

The desperation to do the "yeah... well... YOU MAKE PORN" thing on a porn site never stops being funny.

But it's also sad. Kinda sad that he clearly has a lot of shame about his own love of G4P stars and feels it's so dirty that he used it as an insult to someone else.

(and someone such as myself who doesn't "mop up jizz" or work with G4P porn stars).

Poor lamb.
 
The problem with a subject as subjective as the one we're discussing is there is no universal experience and often times people bring in their anecdotal evidence, which is totally fine. However, because by its nature there is no such thing as a universal experience, sometimes the anecdotes turn out to be more exceptions than the rule.

Thanks for making this point so eloquently. It's a reality most gay men and women find themselves in everyday across the globe. I really don't understand why 'some' people refuse to accept this simple fact. Maybe they foolishly believe that their wonderful life is because of their own intestinal fortitude and those who aren't living that "wonderful gay life" should be at fault.
 
Thanks for making this point so eloquently. It's a reality most gay men and women find themselves in everyday across the globe. I really don't understand why 'some' people refuse to accept this simple fact. Maybe they foolishly believe that their wonderful life is because of their own intestinal fortitude and those who aren't living that "wonderful gay life" should be at fault.

Or maybe they call it like they see it.

Your headline does not say "being out and proud offered me little in return," you make the statement like it is a universal truth. That's exactly what you're complaining about when the shoe is on the other foot.

The simple fact is, lots of us work for, live among, party with, are related to, people who have no problems with us. Nobody's ever going to blame you if you don't find that in your own life, but whose fault is it if you don't at least look for it, work for it, and make it happen.
 
Well it is... but not in the way either of you think.

It's funny that on a porn site, a guy who has told us how into G4P men he is... tried to hurt my feelings with a rather half-assed slag about G4P porn stars.

The desperation to do the "yeah... well... YOU MAKE PORN" thing on a porn site never stops being funny.

But it's also sad. Kinda sad that he clearly has a lot of shame about his own love of G4P stars and feels it's so dirty that he used it as an insult to someone else.

(and someone such as myself who doesn't "mop up jizz" or work with G4P porn stars).

Poor lamb.

You probably shouldn't take people's words on here so personally. When willy boy started trolling my threads, I took his words personally and said some things I shouldn't have. When I stopped responding to his baiting, he started sending me PM's and post comments baiting me further hoping for me to bite again. So, I put him on my ignore list and have made it clear. He continues to troll my threads, probably trying to keep baiting me.

If you feel someone is bringing out the worst in you, I highly recommend you just put that person on your ignore list.

The thing about the smart trolls is they know how to push your buttons while appearing completely innocent to everyone else. I'm sure you know all of this. Just a friendly reminder :-)
 
You probably shouldn't take people's words on here so personally.

OH... trust me... I don't. If people saying "YOU MAKE PORN" hurt my feelings (nearly impossible do to), I wouldn't ever post on JUB. I honestly do think it's funny and kinda sad... a comment like that exposes some pretty deep issues on the side of the person saying it.


The thing about the smart trolls is they know how to push your buttons while appearing completely innocent to everyone else.

I don't think he appeared completely innocent to anyone (judging by the response) and if THAT was an attempt to push my buttons... it was a failed one.
 
.why should he deny the experience of community he shares with people of colour simply because you say it's not possible?.

No one is denying him the right to tout his experiences. But when you systematically dismiss and discount the struggles of others while championing your own, you lose credibility. He is essentially saying "every gay man who struggles with being OUT is a coward". He's also saying "I am the boy who is crying Wolf!"
 
No one is denying him the right to tout his experiences. But when you systematically dismiss and discount the struggles of others while championing your own, you lose credibility. He is essentially saying "every gay man who struggles with being OUT is a coward". He's also saying "I am the boy who is crying Wolf!"

I dunno... I kinda see it the other way...

If you only bemoan being out as having nothing to "offer in return" and then discount anyone saying otherwise as living in a "gay bubble" or a "subculture" that barely exists... aren't you guilty of what you're accusing others of doing?
 
I'm assuming you'll be able to discount my anecdotes the same way you did Soil's.

Sorry Lex but I'm not the person doing the "discounting". Soil is doing that job all by his lonesome. Perhaps you should re read the thread.
 
Sorry Lex but I'm not the person doing the "discounting". Soil is doing that job all by his lonesome. Perhaps you should re read the thread.

um...no. Actually, I think it was you who told me that none of my experiences were valid because I live in a "subculture" and "gay bubble."

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and you threw in the "you make porn." Because... at that point, why not?
 
The perspectives of others are their perspectives. No one exhibits a paucity of thought, seriousness, or honor by merely disagreeing with someone else.

I've only seen one party on this thread offer their personal experience of life, make it normative, and then proceed to declare that those who disagree/view things differently are deficient in some way.
 
I've only seen one party on this thread offer their personal experience of life, make it normative, and then proceed to declare that those who disagree/view things differently are deficient in some way.

One might argue the very first post did this same thing. From the title onward (note that it is not "Being Out and Proud offers ME little in return"), the OP's personal experiences are stated as normative. "Friendships among gays are forged through the "gay handshake" which means "sex first and we'll take it from there."" "And dating and relationships exist only if you believe in unicorns." "...the gay lifestyle still offers very little in terms of feeling good about yourself, and (ironically) feeling proud of anything "gay". I won't speak for soil or anybody else, but my responses were specifically meant not to disprove the OP's personal experiences but to relay a counter-example. Especially since others have discounted soil's experiences as not being valid since "he works in porn" and the implication that he apparently lives in this tiny sliver of the world where it's OK. If my posts have any point, especially the last few, it is "no, it's not just like that in the homo-happy sections of LA if you work in gay porn and only know porn people. It's like that in other businesses and locations as well."

Lex
 
One might argue the very first post did this same thing. From the title onward (note that it is not "Being Out and Proud offers ME little in return"), the OP's personal experiences are stated as normative. "Friendships among gays are forged through the "gay handshake" which means "sex first and we'll take it from there."" "And dating and relationships exist only if you believe in unicorns." "...the gay lifestyle still offers very little in terms of feeling good about yourself, and (ironically) feeling proud of anything "gay". I won't speak for soil or anybody else, but my responses were specifically meant not to disprove the OP's personal experiences but to relay a counter-example. Especially since others have discounted soil's experiences as not being valid since "he works in porn" and the implication that he apparently lives in this tiny sliver of the world where it's OK. If my posts have any point, especially the last few, it is "no, it's not just like that in the homo-happy sections of LA if you work in gay porn and only know porn people. It's like that in other businesses and locations as well."

Lex

We interpret events differently, but that can be done civilly. :)
 
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