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On Topic Discussion Being Out and Proud offers little in return

I didn't forget about Michael Sam. I saw him working at Burger King the other day.

I know this was meant to be a joke... but it's not. And it's not funny, either. Michael Sam DID get homophobic treatment from the NFL (although probably wouldn't have been as bad had more gay people come out and shown that we too can play sports ball), but he's not broke and he's not "working at a Burger King."

Yes... I'm blaming the treatment of Michael Sam on all the closeted gay men out there who help further the idea that being gay is something bad to be ashamed of... if WE act like that... how can we expect straight people to act any different?
 
I can't help but notice that both Kane and Jayqueer both have stopped posting.

...And both of them went out with a bit of a blaze of glory after posting aggressive, racially charged threads and members wouldn't have it, rose up against them and - it would seem - chased them away.

My faith in JUB every so often gets restored when I see people here standing up to the intentionally baiting posts. JayQueer's thread trying to stir up racist animosity with his thread about black men and police and then this one trying to dump on white gay men who aren't in the closet.

Good on you all, JUB.

Kane posted in this thread just two days ago.
 
I know this was meant to be a joke... but it's not. And it's not funny, either. Michael Sam DID get homophobic treatment from the NFL (although probably wouldn't have been as bad had more gay people come out and shown that we too can play sports ball), but he's not broke and he's not "working at a Burger King."

Yes... I'm blaming the treatment of Michael Sam on all the closeted gay men out there who help further the idea that being gay is something bad to be ashamed of... if WE act like that... how can we expect straight people to act any different?

Pretty much nails it.
 
I know this was meant to be a joke... but it's not. And it's not funny, either. Michael Sam DID get homophobic treatment from the NFL (although probably wouldn't have been as bad had more gay people come out and shown that we too can play sports ball), but he's not broke and he's not "working at a Burger King."

Yes... I'm blaming the treatment of Michael Sam on all the closeted gay men out there who help further the idea that being gay is something bad to be ashamed of... if WE act like that... how can we expect straight people to act any different?

I certainly don't think being gay or being romantically involved with another man is something to be ashamed of. At the same time, not everyone is a goddamn hero wearing a cape to save the day.

I know a lot of people, including some on here, who still insist that MS wasn't good enough. When it was unfolding, I knew they would eventually find a politically correct way to kick him out. They did the same to me. If anything, I was cringing in pain everyday as the events unfolded with MS.

MS's mistake was he came out to the whole world before he could stand on his own 2 legs. That was my mistake, too. I was doing fine with everything at work. Then I came out and all of a sudden my evaluations started coming back not good enough. Nothing I did was ever good enough. And don't tell me I couldn't do the job, because in my new firm I've quickly rose up to middle management and my work keep getting good to outstanding reviews. And I'm the only engineer in the firm that can program well enough to create a LOB program to make the work more efficient. None of that mattered in the other place, though.

I'm sure it's easy to be a gay pornographer because no one cares, but there are a lot of professions where they actually care. NFL is one of them.

MS should have stayed in the closet until he could stand on his own in that profession.
 
What many people don't seem to understand is some online personalities are a lot different than real life personalities.

This is why it surprises me to see so many online detectives these days who seem to think they have a person's life completely figured out

being out and proud versus in the closet has made a difference between losing a career job and sitting in my own office being a middle manager driving a company car that is brand new getting letters of commendation from supervisors about outstanding performances.

There are plenty of heros out there. Just let this coward be.
Slight correction for truth, as there is no one-size-fits-all, and humanity constantly proves that there are exceptions to all rules. Few or none of us here can know the real, on-the-ground experiences and circumstances of you, Kane, or anybody else here...even those of us who say that our online personalities are what we are in real (analog) life.

Everybody on here who has made more than 100 posts (in threads that suggest opinions, analytical thought, or advice, etc.) has at least a few times scrubbed or changed a post before making it public, taken more time to consider it than the immediacy of a conversation or a reaction in analog life, or posted as-it-is and greatly regretted having made the post. Considering that, it can be said that NOBODY on here is precisely what they are in real life. Somebody posting here can take as much or as little time as they desire in composing a post. When engaged in a real-time conversation, any words that come out of one's mouth unintentionally, or in a way that can be misconstrued, are THERE already - it's done - it can't be taken back.

Some people believe that being in the closet is NEVER appropriate. I don't buy that, no matter where one is located. (Zombiekiller, do I remember correctly that you're in/near New York City?) Closet or no closet, it's a choice that can be made only individually, and it's not a decision that's simply made casually and on a whim. Everybody, even if they live in a "progressive/liberal" area such as NYC, Paris, Honolulu, Sydney, etc. inevitably has to deal with "tea party" or racist types, bigots, etc. (I generally use "bigot" to refer to prejudice of all kinds, sort of an "umbrella word," and I use "racist" more specifically because a racist is only one out of many different kinds of bigoted mindsets.)

I have known people who are incredibly "neanderthal" tea-party types in places such as northern New Jersey, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. (Conversely, I know a flaming liberal straight guy, who has no issue with my gayness at all, in Oklahoma City.)

When some of these conservative, judgmental, antigay types are positioned in the "wrong" places in somebody's life - such as in the nuclear family or in the same seat as one's boss, being somewhat or fully closeted can be prudent. Nobody else but the individual can make this choice. Even though I consider myself entirely Out, there are a few people who I am indeed closeted with.

Back to the online persona thing, as much as I will say that I'm the same person here as in analog (physical, in-person) life, there are differences. I have time to think, here, exactly how I want to make my point on something, and I can rework it to my desire until I finally post it. Though my posts always reflect how I think about things in real life, I am usually able to put them together much more thoroughly than when audible words simply come out of my mouth, quickly as a "string" of words.

So do plenty of out gay people and they do it.
Out gay people can indeed have a life that isn't "ruined" by antigay people, but note that I only said "can" here - not "WILL." Closeted gay people can also have one. Who and what we are, and our circumstances, determines which approach is the best. However, even for those who consider themselves completely Out, does that mean that your mail carrier, your car mechanic, your cousin five states or three countries away from you who you've never met, your college instructor, your landscaper...KNOW? Probably not.

Being out of the closet doesn't mean broadcasting that you're gay, when the topics being discussed mean nothing at all about it. It's not relevant when you're dropping clothes off at the dry cleaners. To me, being out of the closet only means not trying to hide it, when and if the topic comes up. Being neutral about it, talking about it as you may talk about baseball or children, but not bringing it up gratuitously either. And, indeed, being Out can still mean being "closeted" sometimes...is it unacceptable for an Out person to keep his/her gayness private when near or talking with somebody who has just said that Hitler did it wrong when he didn't kill ALL the gays? I think a person can be completely Out, without blurting out "Well, I'M gay!" in such a situation.
 
I have known people who are incredibly "neanderthal" tea-party types in places such as northern New Jersey, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. (Conversely, I know a flaming liberal straight guy, who has no issue with my gayness at all, in Oklahoma City.)

Here's the thing. As I've said before, the tea party "neanderthal" types don't scare me so much. I doubt many people actually take them seriously. They are at best a distraction.

It's the closeted bigots that scare me. Look at the Michael Sam case. They continue to deny up and down that him being gay had nothing to do with it. Bitch, please. Or look at my case. I was doing just fine at my job at the time. In fact, I was doing more than fine. My supervisor said several times that I was a fast learner. All my work were turned in on time and free of errors. Then one day someone noticed that I always used a gender neutral term to describe my significant other. So, I came clean that I had a boyfriend. All of a sudden, my reviews started coming back as deficient. Nothing I did was ever good enough. They started hitting me with a lot more work load and they cranked up the pressure, which made me more and more depressed. And I believed them, too, that I wasn't good enough. Some people flat out stopped talking to me.

It wasn't until long after I left that company that I started thinking back and realized what had been done to me. And again, people can say I'm just bitter because I really was bad at my job all they want. I am now working for a more reputable firm sitting in my own office being a middle manager driving a brand new company car. So, don't tell me I can't perform.

See, most people keep thinking real life is like a movie where discrimination is always obvious and everything can be proven in court. This isn't better call saul. This is real life where the closeted bigots are very good at covering their tracks and making you feel bad about yourself. The bigots that hold "god hates fags" signs are nothing. They are a distraction, that is all. The proactive bigots that are involved with politics are a concern, but again they are in full day light and we can watch out for them. It's the ones that glides in the dark and become your best friend that we should be worried about. They'll say the most politically correct things. They will make you believe they are your best friends in the world. This is the real world, not better call saul.
 
I certainly don't think being gay or being romantically involved with another man is something to be ashamed of. At the same time, not everyone is a goddamn hero wearing a cape to save the day.

I know a lot of people, including some on here, who still insist that MS wasn't good enough. When it was unfolding, I knew they would eventually find a politically correct way to kick him out. They did the same to me. If anything, I was cringing in pain everyday as the events unfolded with MS.

MS's mistake was he came out to the whole world before he could stand on his own 2 legs. That was my mistake, too. I was doing fine with everything at work. Then I came out and all of a sudden my evaluations started coming back not good enough. Nothing I did was ever good enough. And don't tell me I couldn't do the job, because in my new firm I've quickly rose up to middle management and my work keep getting good to outstanding reviews. And I'm the only engineer in the firm that can program well enough to create a LOB program to make the work more efficient. None of that mattered in the other place, though.

I'm sure it's easy to be a gay pornographer because no one cares, but there are a lot of professions where they actually care. NFL is one of them.

MS should have stayed in the closet until he could stand on his own in that profession.

Zombiekiller, totally agree with you on this.

I used to think several years ago that being "out" would be such a great thing. It isn't. As you said, it's not the "Bible thumpers" who are the worst, it's the "silent" haters who make things difficult. Like in the workplace. If your boss/supervisor doesn't like that you're gay then they'll just give more opportunities, raises, promotions, etc to the straight white male candidate and you get passed over, or even laid off.............all while they smile to your face and tell you you're a good employee or candidate.

If you're a racial minority, you already have one strike against you. When you're openly gay, that's strikes two & three against you.

I know I'm persona non grata on JUB (or so it seems), but I agree with you 100% on this. In the real business world (where almost everyone is straight) & definitely in the executive world (where almost everyone is straight AND white), being gay is a liability.

I have gone back in the closet for now. I wish I had a boyfriend though :( But in my professional life I need to be closeted.
 
When I was 18, I thought accepting for myself that I was gay was a painful point to reach in my life. Then when I came out to my friends in my junior year of college, I was so scared to admit it to them. The fact I had a bf helped and I doubt I would have told my friends other than that, at least at the point in my life. When word got around school, I felt gossiped about and because a little paranoid about it. Being called a fag at a Christmas party in senior year in front of lots of other students from several colleges, felt degrading and sickening. When childhood friends and family rejected me, I thought I would die. Part of the grad school experience involved a psychological evaluation before the internship and because of the field I would be in. I wasn't obligated to tell the psychologist about my sexuality, but the assessment was very personality based and since he asked lots of personal questions, I didn't know how to avoid it. Besides, I was in love and my bf was always very honest with others about who we were to each other. So I used the balls God gave me and told him. His response was to smile and congratulate me on being in love. It felt like I was taking a risk by telling him, but it was one occasion when the reward was well worth it. By the time my career was underway, I was used to being "out", but when I learned there were people who were not interested in doing business with me because I was gay, I thought about being a little less out. I will be honest about that.
I never walked up to anyone and said "Hello, I'm Dan and I'm gay", but if you came into my office you would see pictures of my man and me and it was obvious who we were to each other. I knew there were just some things I was not willing to change for anyone and hiding my light under a bushel when it came to my bf was one of them.
Today, my bf is now my husband and we have 4 children. Impossible to ever be closeted anymore, even if I wanted to be. Honestly, it still annoys me when going to school functions knowing that there are parents there who share with all new comers that we are "the gay couple". They think we don't know they do it. I think it irritates me because my sexuality is not my total identity. But it is what it is.

Is there a price to be paid for being honest about who you are? You bet. What about rewards? Let's just say it's worth it all. At least for me, it is. The rewards may not come when you want them and they may not come publicly. You many never make anyone accept you, but at least you are living in the sunlight instead of the shadows.

No one should ever feel the obligation to come out until they are ready and they should never feel obligated to come out to every person they meet. I know it can be scary at times, but the people who love you will love you still or they never loved you in the first place. This won't heal the hurt, but it is a fact you have to accept.
 
I see that JayQueer has just posted. I hope those who dislike him will refrain from posting since it really does no good to remind him of his old posts. Maybe we can keep on topic without getting into personalities?
 
All I gotta say is I used to be out and proud and I lost a career job because of it. Afterward, I went back into the closet and nothing but good have been coming my way.

The thing about bigots is I'm not so much worried about the loud mouth ones who talk a lot of shit about gay people. It's the nice ones that always scare me. They blend right in with everybody else. When they strike, it won't be like the movies where everything is obvious and there's a paper trail where your heroic lawyer will be able to photocopy and you win the day and everybody will break out in thunderous applause in the courtroom when you win and all that crap. In the real world, the real smart bigots know exactly how to cost you your job without as much as a hint.

Am I a coward? Yes, absolutely. I have a house to pay for. I have a boyfriend to put through school. I have a career to pursue. I'm not going to risk any of it because I have to be out and proud. I don't want any trouble.

That's not cowardice, that's self defense. That said, not everyone has that option. Mine tends to be up in the air at any given time but most people, I find, don't ask, they just assume. I currently live in skirts cuz it's hot as hell and there's a cast,had an appointment and got he'd the whole time, which is roughly what I expected. There's no decision to be out there, especially as I haven't updated the ID marker cuz of health insurance worries. Out would be honesty but honesty can have some nasty consequences, I pick and chose battles if possible - no one has the energy for all of them.

"And Sergeant Colon once again knew a secret about bravery. It was arguably a kind of enhanced cowardice—the knowledge that while death may await you if you advance it will be a picnic compared to the certain living hell that awaits should you retreat."
― Terry Pratchett, Jingo
 
He does make a lot of good points whether you guys want to agree with it or not.Coming out and being open as a minority gay isn't worth it, when you are better off in the closet or not really associating yourself with the gay culture or making it known..

Thank you. Someone who has walked a similar path can show empathy. While others can only display defensiveness and venom.

Being a racial minority is no excuse.

To be blunt, what I read in Kane's, Morrisey's and Taralen's posts is capitulation.

And Kane, it isn't your skin pigmentation that is the issue. It is your personality. Seriously. If you are half as bitter and unpleasant in real life as you are on-line...you are going to be rejected by anyone who is looking for joy. Take up yoga or something to get you outside of yourself and find some peace and purpose..

Wow, you said a lot there. Most of which I won't dignify with a direct response. Just know that your comments are asinine. :rolleyes:

What many people don't seem to understand is online personalities are a lot different than real life personalities.

Agreed, but I'm just as bombastic offline as I am online. I never made excuses for it! I am a compassionate guy with a capacity to love and display empathy unbound. But I will not be told to make myself "the less threatening negro" because some believe I'm too abrasive.
 
I can't help but notice that both Kane and Jayqueer both have stopped posting.

...And both of them went out with a bit of a blaze of glory after posting aggressive, racially charged threads and members wouldn't have it, rose up against them and - it would seem - chased them away.

My faith in JUB every so often gets restored when I see people here standing up to the intentionally baiting posts. JayQueer's thread trying to stir up racist animosity with his thread about black men and police and then this one trying to dump on white gay men who aren't in the closet.

Good on you all, JUB.

:rolleyes: You sir, are full of shit! But that explains the constipated look on your face. Your comment is way left field. I have nothing to do with Jayqueer's threads, nor am I aware of his ideology on matters concerning race. The fact that you threw the two of us together suggests that YOU only see two opinionated jubbers with brown skin.. And I don't need to tell you what that says about YOU....
 
I know this was meant to be a joke... but it's not. And it's not funny, either. Michael Sam DID get homophobic treatment from the NFL (although probably wouldn't have been as bad had more gay people come out and shown that we too can play sports ball), but he's not broke and he's not "working at a Burger King."

Yes... I'm blaming the treatment of Michael Sam on all the closeted gay men out there who help further the idea that being gay is something bad to be ashamed of... if WE act like that... how can we expect straight people to act any different?

I don't find Michael Sam a good example. If he weren't gay he'd just be unemployed instead of being on dancing with the stars and getting a show on OWN
 
I don't find Michael Sam a good example. If he weren't gay he'd just be unemployed instead of being on dancing with the stars and getting a show on OWN

While the Michael Sam fallout is always an interesting discussion, here is not the place for it. I would appreciate if Jubbers would stick to the very serious topic and nature of the thread.

Thank you.
 
Btw the "benefits" of being out and gay isn't about race. It's about socioeconomic status.

While it may help a poor minority on the DL to stay in the closet, I don't have any sympathy or respect for a black male middle-class or above.
 
Zombiekiller, totally agree with you on this.

I used to think several years ago that being "out" would be such a great thing. It isn't. As you said, it's not the "Bible thumpers" who are the worst, it's the "silent" haters who make things difficult. Like in the workplace. If your boss/supervisor doesn't like that you're gay then they'll just give more opportunities, raises, promotions, etc to the straight white male candidate and you get passed over, or even laid off.............all while they smile to your face and tell you you're a good employee or candidate.

If you're a racial minority, you already have one strike against you. When you're openly gay, that's strikes two & three against you.

I know I'm persona non grata on JUB (or so it seems), but I agree with you 100% on this. In the real business world (where almost everyone is straight) & definitely in the executive world (where almost everyone is straight AND white), being gay is a liability.

I have gone back in the closet for now. I wish I had a boyfriend though :( But in my professional life I need to be closeted.

Oh Fuck.

Why am I not surprised that another of our reactionary right wing republican trolls is 'in the closet'...even though he likely is another one of those guys that everyone knows is a screaming pillow biter.....
 
Kane posted in this thread just two days ago.

his last post was in this thread and it was the one where he tried (unsuccessfully) to come back at me with the "you make porn, you live in a subculture, I would never take your advice, you don't live in the real world, I have real problems.... pity melee" and that was it.\

Gone.

And I personally won't miss him but if he wants to maybe try to deal with his issues, I'd be happy to have him back.
 
:rolleyes: The fact that you threw the two of us together suggests that YOU only see two opinionated jubbers with brown skin.. And I don't need to tell you what that says about YOU....

Um... honey? JayQueer is (I assume) white and posts a lot of racist, anti-black threads.

But thanks for playing.
 
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