On Topic Discussion Being Out and Proud offers little in return

[Taz]

some aggressive cis prick

Why even include this? Are you saying cis is bad?

Everyone says they hate labels yet people just use more and more of them to insult people.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Why even include this? Are you saying cis is bad?

Everyone says they hate labels yet people just use more and more of them to insult people.

I said that because that's who polices my gender expression. I've never had nor heard of trans people being aggressive physically with each other over expression. Trans people don't go out of their way to harrass other trans people.

It's like saying there's a straight asshole on the corner harassing gay people.

Cis and straight aren't used as insults - asshole and prick are. Cis, or rather cissexual and cisgender are just the opposite of trans ~ being the only ones forced to be labelled makes us as lesser so now you have one as well. Straight ppl weren't always called straight, they used to be unlabeled as well.

We haven't yet invented a term like 'breeder' for you lot. I doubt we ever will, honestly, although I have been wrong before.

 

[Taz]

So if I were to call you a cunt, do I need to call you a trans cunt?

Including the label in a derogatory statement, implies negativity. And just because one person from a group is a cunt, doesn't mean you need to use their sexuality or gender identity or race or whatever.

Just like there is no real need to call you a trans cunt, or a gay cunt, or a black cunt, if you're just a cunt.

 

[luckynumbah7]

*shorter version - cis is a neutral descriptor. If anyone finds themselves offended by it because they don't want to be labelled and instead insist that, well, only trans people need to be labelled because "different!" - too bad, so sad, I don't care. The labeling helps equalize the playing field, so to speak.

Just keep repeating "Thirty years behind" and you'll get an idea of where we're coming from. The difference is, and this is crucial, cis people, which happens to include the gay ones, as a class are part of who trans people are arguing with for equal treatment.

 

[luckynumbah7]

So if I were to call you a cunt, do I need to call you a trans cunt?

Including the label in a derogatory statement, implies negativity. And just because one person from a group is a cunt, doesn't mean you need to use their sexuality or gender identity or race or whatever.


Just like there is no real need to call you a trans cunt, or a gay cunt, or a black cunt, if you're just a cunt.

You missed the point entirely. Cis was said because it's a crucial part of who is denying me my rights in an example of harassment. If the wasn't cis statistically they wouldn't be doing the behavior. That you happen to be in that group isn't anyone's fault.

Do you also rail against people being described as white or straight? Because it's the same thing.

 

[Taz]

It's you who have missed the point. I'm not saying don't label people. I'm saying don't use labels negatively..

If you say some cis asshole, newsflash! you're using it negatively. An asshole is an asshole. And don't kid yourself, nobody says something like, that trans asshole unless they want to add venom to the identity.

On top of that, unless you ask somebody, you never know what their gender identity is. People Identify in so many ways these days, It could be some closeted trans asshole doing the harrassing.

 

[luckynumbah7]

It's you who have missed the point. I'm not saying don't label people. I'm saying don't use labels negatively..

If you say some cis asshole, newsflash! you're using it negatively. An asshole is an asshole. And don't kid yourself, nobody says something like, that trans asshole unless they want to add venom to the identity.

On top of that, unless you ask somebody, you never know what their gender identity is. People Identify in so many ways these days, It could be some closeted trans asshole doing the harrassing.

They don't call us trans when they're being insulting, Taz. You're being much too polite in your descriptions of what you think cis people call us, both to our face and behind our backs. And don't bother with the "they might be ambiguous" either. While it could be true it's statistically damn improbable. And I'm also talking physicality here, which you've conveniently left to the wayside. Because there are two hierarchies of trans people - our own and cis people's version. You didn't even separate them when trying to discuss your irritation at being labelled.

Are you going to answer any of my previous questions?

 

[xbuzzerx]

My definition (which seems to work) of "out" is

1. Those closest to me know.
2. I don't care who else knows.

It's that last part that people get hung up on. I don't know if my butcher or the guy three doors down or (yes) the waiter at Chili's knows I'm gay. But my point is - I don't CARE if they know. I don't mind bringing up my boyfriend or my attraction to guys to these people. Quite often, it doesn't come up. But if it does, I won't bother playing pronoun games under the guise of "it's none of their business".

Lex

Right. There's a big difference between shame/hiding and going incredibly out of your way to inform absolutely every single person you have even the most menial or impersonal interactions with- like butchers, pharmacists, bus drivers, people at the fast food register, and people you never talk to other than dropping off a fax on the corner of their desk. Although I often get the impression that if you are doing anything less than the latter, many militant gay men will bring out the closet label.

There is also, as zombiekiller mentions, situations in which one does not artificially volunteer this information when it is not relevant and would be financially or professionally self-destructive to do so. When you're being introduced to the 76 year old CEO of the company you work for there is literally nothing to be gained by forcing an insertion of your homosexuality while shaking his hand-- especially if losing that job would instantly jeopardize your mortgage. There are many right here on JUB who would call that "making excuses"-- when they take on the financial responsibility for all of the rest of us, they may say so as far as I'm concerned.

Too often I think the people who are most extreme with the width of the net they cast castigating gay men for their insufficient "out-ness" are people who have opted out of communities and sectors of the workforce where their loud gayness could possibly ever harm them personally or financially. It's rather convenient for these people to write up rules which are unforgivingly exacting.

 

[Taz]

Let me get this straight. You don't like them using your chosen label negatively, so you take theirs and do the same thing?

Very good then. Expect change by being just as bad as they are.

 

[luckynumbah7]

I'm also calling bullshit. I've never seen a gay person go "you shouldn't describe that straight man as a straight asshole, it's using straight in a negative manner."

You can't really use neutral descriptions in a negative manner. Which is why people don't politely call us "----- trans" when they're pissed. Adding a few curses before and after trans doesn't make trans itself a negative word.

-edited to add

I have no idea how to make it plainer, anyone else feel free to try best of luck.

I find it telling social-wise regarding socially acceptable behavior, shall we say, that in that my example of harassment and the varicose shades of " out ness" that can be described the cis person focuses in his own feelings because while I'm getting harassed for being a tranny he's worried a cis person, somewhere, might be offended at being called what they are, that is, cis. It's actually a fairly common response - gay people heard the same thing when straight reared it's head.

 

[Taz]

I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. Just pointing out your hypocrisy in case you hadn't noticed it.

 

[Gentleheart]

What I ACTUALLY said (and you know this, so stop pretending otherwise) is that unless you're out to everyone in your life (which doesn't have to include the water at Chili's), you're technically in the closet. Yes, everyone can make up their own decisions on that and blah blah blah this is so fucking boring I'm glad I have a spine. But if the people at your job aren't aware that you're gay because you've lead them to believe otherwise or gone out of your way to avoid the topic...it's your choice and business... but you're still in the closet at work. If your mom doesn't know because you don't think it's "her business who I'm fucking," again... it's your business but you ARE in the closet within your own family.

If you have "gay friends" who know and "straight friends" who don't... you're in the closet.

If the reason for not telling people is that "they'd see me differently," it's your choice.. I don't really care... but I do think it's sad that you live your own life on someone else's standards and not your own.

credit where it's due, baby!

 

[bankside]

just fyi, trans people don't get to pick a name to designate non-trans people any more than straight people get to pick the [STRIKE]slur[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]awkward-sounding[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]medically pathologised[/STRIKE] term for gay people.

 

[bankside]

You missed the point entirely. Cis was said because it's a crucial part of who is denying me my rights in an example of harassment. If the wasn't cis statistically they wouldn't be doing the behavior. That you happen to be in that group isn't anyone's fault.

Do you also rail against people being described as white or straight? Because it's the same thing.

This is literally the same argument as "I'm entitled to say 'drunken indian' because statistically the ethnicity of the person who made me feel vaguely uncomfortable was aboriginal and statistically they have a higher incidence of alcoholism..." etc etc.

 

[luckynumbah7]

just fyi, trans people don't get to pick a name to designate non-trans people any more than straight people get to pick the [STRIKE]slur[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]awkward-sounding[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]medically pathologised[/STRIKE] term for gay people.

Why not? You did. We didn't go out and label ourselves as trans. Further, cis isn't an insult. It is, literally, the opposite of trans. Being unlabeled like you wish to be leaves cis people in the box labelled 'normal', which excludes trans people because cis people were the ones who labelled us as 'other' in the first place.

 

[luckynumbah7]

This is literally the same argument as "I'm entitled to say 'drunken indian' because statistically the ethnicity of the person who made me feel vaguely uncomfortable was aboriginal and statistically they have a higher incidence of alcoholism..." etc etc.

No it isn't. Replace cis with straight. One is explaining which group of people have power over another, the other is using insulting stereotypes because you're willfully ignoring reality in an effort to get rid of a label. The dances some people do to not acknowledge group privilege, sometimes it's a work on art but generally....not so much.

And that's it for me replying to willfully ignorant arguments. If some cis person replies, maybe you'll listen to them, being similar and all.

 

[Soilwork]

... again you're bring way too much to the table.

Oh buddy.... compared to your baggage? No.

no.

We don't all need to know about something that happened in your life in every post. You're giving way too much information that nobody asked for.

No, this isn't about me. I've never been that guy. This is you. Not me. This isn't about my past... this is about your present. I was born with spine. You... not so much.

and this is your opinion.

you wanted me to post someone else's?

Being out to every single person in your life isn't necessary and that doesn't mean someone is "in the closet".

Yes it is and yes it does. If you want to be honest in your life. I'm right and you're wrong. And you know that.

This is especially true in a work environment. Not everyone works in gay porn.

I used to work a corporate purchasing job and my husband is an architect. My best friend is a rocket scientist who works for NASA. My brother works for a major software company and his brother works for a major retailer and we're all out. Stop making excuses for your own lack of spine. I know it sucks. But it's not my fault. Stop blaming me for your inability to come out. And stop making excuses like "they'd see me different." That's just your baggage.

 

[Rex]

First of all, you know very little about me so what baggage? Other than me being not out to everyone at work? Is that baggage?

PS: You live in a very openly gay part of California. If I had to guess, I'd say san fransisco's gay district, and you being "out" doesn't take away from the fact that you're a pretty lousy person and it doesn't mean that you're better than anyone so spare us the speech about how you're so amazing when your purpose in life is mopping up jizz from a gay4pay drug addicted porn star.

 

[bankside]

First of all, you know very little about me so what baggage? Other than me being not out to everyone at work? Is that baggage?

PS: You live in a very openly gay part of California. If I had to guess, I'd say san fransisco's gay district, and you being "out" doesn't take away from the fact that you're a pretty lousy person and it doesn't mean that you're better than anyone so spare us the speech about how you're so amazing when your purpose in life is mopping up jizz from a gay4pay drug addicted porn star.

You know I thought it was over the top when you were complaining earlier in the thread about him talking about his life as basically just a vanity-driven ego trip. I thought "Nah, he's just using personal examples to make a point about the topic...which is what people do..."

But then now you're talking about his life to try to make your point... and it makes your point look less like a winning argument, but like a whining hypocrite.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

First of all, you know very little about me so what baggage? Other than me being not out to everyone at work? Is that baggage?

PS: You live in a very openly gay part of California. If I had to guess, I'd say san fransisco's gay district, and you being "out" doesn't take away from the fact that you're a pretty lousy person and it doesn't mean that you're better than anyone so spare us the speech about how you're so amazing when your purpose in life is mopping up jizz from a gay4pay drug addicted porn star.

All this says to me is that Soilwork struck a nerve.