On Topic Discussion Being Out and Proud offers little in return

[Soilwork]

I've only seen one party on this thread offer their personal experience of life, make it normative, and then proceed to declare that those who disagree/view things differently are deficient in some way.

.. you're talking about the part where you told me I was wrong and then called me "stupid," right?

 

[luckynumbah7]

This is somewhat off topic but it is an excellent point. The term was used negatively.

Was not off topic, or at least, no more off topic than everyone else's' descriptions on out ness and on how being out affects people. If you're going to declare a thing you might want to learn about it first. Asshole was used negatively. Cis was a descriptor of who does the behavior, in this case to me. Or do you avoid saying 'white' when talking about racism and people? As if whiteness wasn't a prime factor. I know you're not going to answer "yes I avoid" or "yes I find straight to be a bigoted word" or anything remotely similar because none of you have answered yes - it would be too blatant a lie.

So instead of watching you agree with yourselves while simultaneously ignoring every example and question I've asked, here's a link that might get some of you past the baby steps. It's 12 pages of meandering cis people, mostly, so you should feel right at home watching the snails pace of a conversation about the difference between a labelled and unlabeled state.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=755750

 

[Soilwork]

it is "no, it's not just like that in the homo-happy sections of LA if you work in gay porn and only know porn people. It's like that in other businesses and locations as well."

Lex

Well and as i've pointed out any times... virtually none of my friends work in the adult industry, my husband is an architect and most of my friends are professionals in many different fields. I've lived in more than one city, I've held more than one job. Yes... I do have a pretty gay job where being STRAIGHT would be a detriment, but it hasn't always been like that.

Yes... My experiences are different from everyone else's. But we all have to face adversity and we all have our own crosses to bear. Some of us just handle that better than others, I guess.

 

[Telstra]

So soilwork,
your first husband work with NASA, your second husband is an architetc?
Abit confusing since you just returning to the forum.

 

[Soilwork]

So soilwork,
your first husband work with NASA, your second husband is an architetc?
Abit confusing since you just returning to the forum.

No, my best friend works for NASA. I've only been married once. To an architect.

 

[Vitamin]

.. you're talking about the part where you told me I was wrong and then called me "stupid," right?

I don't recall where Noah actually called you wrong, but he did say you were stupid, and said you were incapable of forming arguments in an civilized manner. This is why he thinks you're stupid, not because he disagrees with you(which he very well might, I'm not sure) but because you come off as so unessacrially hostile that it detracts from the point you are trying to make.

Personally, I don't think you're stupid. You remind me so much of "that guy" at the bar who everyone wished would just stop picking fights with people I think you might actually just be a drunk.

 

[thewiz]

For most of my adult life, I've lived as an "Ambiguous gay male".
If you are a heterosexual, for you, the application of that term should be as follows:

"If you don't ask, I won't tell. Nor will I attempt to confirm
the obvious as it exists through your plain of view."

And while I am far from a self loathing closeted gay man, I'm not necessarily out and proud neither. And why should I be? What does the "gay community have to offer a young man of color anyway?" From where I sit, the "gay community" doesn't look all that appealing. Especially if you're a Black American. Even among gay Blacks in America, there is a psychological dysfunction that exist. So how can one find refuge in a broken community? Friendships among gays are forged through the "gay handshake" which means "sex first and we'll take it from there." How is that healthy? Racism is practiced among gay whites as freely as it is among their heterosexual counterparts. And dating and relationships exist only if you believe in unicorns. I'm aware that I may seem bitter and perhaps jaded. But who among you can argue against what has been said? Yes, the holidays are upon us and maybe I'm sick of hearing about how my coworkers will be spending their very HETEROSEXUAL holidays with family and friends. But regardless of my rationale, the gay lifestyle still offers very little in terms of feeling good about yourself, and (ironically) feeling proud of anything "gay".

By the time I caught up on this thread, it appears significant water has passed under the bridge, or if I use your analogy for Soil -- a lot of jizz has fallen on the floor!

In DC, we are about to start the Capital Pride season. While we have activities planned 365 days a year, the emphasis began with Youth Pride and has now featured Trans Pride, Black Pride, and soon the main Pride events. About three years ago I was asked to sit on the Capital Pride Board of Directors and was honored to do so. For so many years, I felt much like you.

While I knew I was gay when I was 12 and had sexual relations with my brother-in-law's nephew until I was 18 and he was 20, the area in which I lived in Michigan was anything but a diverse and welcoming area to anyone that was not heterosexual and white. I had many friends who were Latino, Asian and black but none lived in the part of Michigan that I lived and worked. The only openly gay individuals that I remember were two men who bought a local party store and were flamboyant as all get out. They wore pink speedos to mow the lawn and often did so at lunch time to draw a crowd of the locals who would giggle yet purchase their lunch at the party store the two ran. When they moved, they took out a full page ad in the local newspaper that basically thanked the bigoted citizens for making them filthy rich and able to move to Key West!

My career path of police/fire and later city management often required polygraph tests and the first I remember, one of the questions inquired whether "you are attracted to boys." Fortunately I was not to young boys and I passed the test but I remember sweating over the answer. I and the guy I used to have relations with both married because both of us chose a law enforcement path and we needed to be "straight." We both had two kids (boy and a girl) and we saw each other occasionally in public. I remember in January of 2005 seeing him and asking if he ever thought of us to which he replied "always." We made plans to meet later but in the meantime his annual physical discovered he had a rare leukemia and underwent experimental treatments. His mother worked for me and called me on Monday to drive her to the airport to pick up Pat as he came back from the hospital (she didn't drive and had no idea about the two of us except that we were friends). She called me the night before he was to come home and was crying; Pat had died because the treatments must also have damaged one of his heart valves (which was a known risk). He died of a heart attack and we never saw each other.

My wife and I by this time had been living separate lives under the same roof for about three years because I wanted to stay until both kids were in college (my daughter had two years to go). I did become the angry, dejected person who now had no one I could talk with or share how I was feeling. Heck, other than Pat and the two guys at the party store, I knew of no other gays in the community. Lansing and Grand Rapids were 33 miles away -- one east and one west. Lansing has two gay bars but neither is open much other than weekends and the Grand Rapids bars were located adjacent or in county-owned buildings where I often had to attend meetings on various boards I was appointed to. I stumbled onto JUB and was advised to perhaps go to Chicago (which I did). I knew I was gay; I knew I had to do something about it but what?

I returned home and out of the blue was offered a job in Washington, DC. My kids encouraged me to "go for it" but did not yet know my other issue. The (now) ex wife was not too happy she knew nothing about it until I was leaving on an airplane the following morning. I left the dream life of heteros -- great job, community respect, status, large house on an acre-and-a-half, two kids, a wife. But I was depressed, hoping for a heart attack or, somedays, contemplating suicide. What I desired was what I saw when we went on vacation -- sitting with a young man on the beach in shorts while I caressed his hairy legs and we later went into the hotel and had hot sex (hell, the wife and I hadn't had any for three years and I never cheated other than when I went to Chicago).

I remember coming to DC in June and discovering it was a very gay city. I didn't run down the street screaming "I'm gay, I'm gay" but little by little I opened the door to what was really me. I was actually quite surprised. Our two kids both accepted the fact I was gay and love my husband; they'll soon visit again with our first grand daughter and grandson who is in the hopper. The ex-wife hates my husband because she thinks he broke us up (yes, she's a religious fundie who can't accept although her sister regularly talks with me as do her two kids!)

My first Pride was June 2006 and I had a JUB t-shirt that we were encouraged to wear and post a picture while attending Pride. I went with some friends and remember how freeing it was to be out and seen for who I was. The pride I had in the preceding year with my kids totally accepting as swell as my brothers and sisters all surprised me yet removed an 800 pound guerrilla that had been sitting on my back. As word spread in the town that I managed, I received a number of emails and calls asking why I had not told them; in at least two cases it brought me to tears because I thought the individuals would never understand and, even more, never accept. I discovered along the way that being gay was not a sentence but often led to being able to talk with people and share my story.

As for my sexuality (and it is great btw since the hubby and I both have high sex drives), I feel it is no different. I did not talk about how much my ex-wife and I had sex or how we had sex when with friends or at dinner events; I don't with our gay friends or at events. While I may discuss my coming out, I don't talk about how the hubby and I did it doggie and missionary this morning or how I used a dildo on him yesterday, etc, etc. I also don't want to be known as "Gay Tom" but rather as "Tom" who happens to be gay. I don't think my name tag as a Capital Pride board member has "Gay Tom" nor does anyone else's. If I'm asked, I don't hide or run away from it; but in most circles I am in today -- everything from the Pentagon to federal, state and local government -- it rarely comes up. If it has, it usually is a way for me to talk to them and I have never found myself shunned put out.

I found that being out and proud offered me the opportunity to not only take off the many masks that I had put on over the years -- and which were weighing my head to the ground -- and hold my head high for who and what I am. People who can't stand to see me for who I am often have no value or place in my life anyway; why should I worry about them if I'm happy. It offered me a chance to really talk with relatives, friends, our kids, and even their friends. It offered me a chance to counsel at least four of their friends who were struggling with being gay. I like to think that I am able to return much to the DC community -- not just gay but in other areas. I was asked to sit on at least one national board because I was gay and they were looking at how to promote diversity in emergency services.

So I think coming out is what you make of it. I do realize people as close to me as in Virginia can be fired for simply being gay; the same in Michigan. I have seen people put out of housing or denied rentals because they were gay. But I also see the landscape rapidly changing. Heck, who would have thought I would be married by a Catholic priest (no longer so) and then officiate at his wedding to his long term partner!?!?

 

[zombiekiller]

While I knew I was gay when I was 12 and had sexual relations with my brother-in-law's nephew until I was 18 and he was 20

You lucky bastard!

 

[Vitamin]

Fabulous and inspiring story, wiz! Congrats!

 

[thewiz]

Thanks guys! And I was lucky.....

 

[-Kane-]

TheWiz - thank you for sharing your story with us. It seems your journey had a few casualties along the way. Namely, your wife. But at least you finally got to live in your truth.

 

[xbuzzerx]

ZK - do you think this guy (or group of guys) wanted you gone simply because you were gay? Or did he covet your position, or considered you an obstacle towards what he wanted?

Lex

Isn't the answer to this question basically irrelevant if he worked in a corporate environment where his homosexuality was something that someone else could use to get him pushed out of his job? I don't see what difference it makes what their motivation was, really.

 

[xbuzzerx]

In other words... my purpose in life is to get out and enjoy all it has to offer

I doubt anyone has any problem with that. I think the problem is when gay men either in the gay community or on the net start getting together and agreeing with each other that everyone not doing exactly what they are doing is self-handicapped or self-limiting. There is absolutely no way to conclude that without assuming a uniform, universal set of circumstances, experiences and day-to-day realities for everyone.

I've had plenty of people glance askance or ask me if I have "hangups" for not being on grindr, as one example. There is a tendency among gay men to universalize individual experiences and conclude "This worked for me, therefore anyone not doing it the way I did it is doing it wrong", and to immediately start questioning the pathology or lack of personal evolution that underlines why another gay man is not living life exactly the way they do.

 

[MorrisseyX]

My definition (which seems to work) of "out" is

1. Those closest to me know.
2. I don't care who else knows.

It's that last part that people get hung up on. I don't know if my butcher or the guy three doors down or (yes) the waiter at Chili's knows I'm gay. But my point is - I don't CARE if they know. I don't mind bringing up my boyfriend or my attraction to guys to these people. Quite often, it doesn't come up. But if it does, I won't bother playing pronoun games under the guise of "it's none of their business".

Lex

The first definition makes sense but not the second one. People who are closeted do care if anyone knows. Also people who are out could be killed depending where they live in the world. There are over 70 countries around the world where being gay is illegal. Your outlook is very western maybe in the west nobody will care if a person is out. But around the world death could occur if a person comes out.

 

[MorrisseyX]

Or maybe they call it like they see it.

Your headline does not say "being out and proud offered me little in return," you make the statement like it is a universal truth. That's exactly what you're complaining about when the shoe is on the other foot.

The simple fact is, lots of us work for, live among, party with, are related to, people who have no problems with us. Nobody's ever going to blame you if you don't find that in your own life, but whose fault is it if you don't at least look for it, work for it, and make it happen.

It is not a simple fact maybe for a white gay male but certainly not for gay men of colour.
Or maybe those people have white skin privilege did you ever consider that? Maybe in the white gay male world of chelsea or west Hollywood it is easy to be out. But to ignore the fact for gay black men it is not so easy. First , the gay male community has a lot of hypocrisy and racism. Second there is homophobia in the black community. Another point to consider is some gay black men do not want to assimilate into a white gay world. There is the struggle do you belong to either community? Where do these men find themselves? I think people need to read essex Hemphill book ceremonies it is available in the public library. Also read dwight mcbride book why I hate ambercrombie and Fitch also in the public library. Read these books people!

 

[xbuzzerx]

Or maybe those people have white skin privilege did you ever consider that?

He willfully refuses to process what it means to be part of a normalized group. You could discuss it with him for 13 pages like I did and he would still pretend the concept is fictional or invalid by the end of it. Just saving you time.

 

[Soilwork]

I doubt anyone has any problem with that. I think the problem is when gay men either in the gay community or on the net start getting together and agreeing with each other that everyone not doing exactly what they are doing is self-handicapped or self-limiting. There is absolutely no way to conclude that without assuming a uniform, universal set of circumstances, experiences and day-to-day realities for everyone.

I've had plenty of people glance askance or ask me if I have "hangups" for not being on grindr, as one example. There is a tendency among gay men to universalize individual experiences and conclude "This worked for me, therefore anyone not doing it the way I did it is doing it wrong", and to immediately start questioning the pathology or lack of personal evolution that underlines why another gay man is not living life exactly the way they do.

Ok and see... while I'm not saying everyone should just say "fuck it," leave their high-paying corporate job to follow their dream of being a gay erotic film maker... I DO think that staying in the closet because "they'd see me differently" IS "self-handicapping and self-limiting."

 

[Rex]

The only thing handicapping anyone is judgmental twats like the poster above who thinks he's on the top of the gay totem pole hierarchy because he's so "out" that he deep throats hot dogs and jerks off with Jake Cruise on youtube.

There is a difference between hiding your sexuality in the work place and just not advertising it. To maybe two or three co workers who I actually spend time with outside of work and consider friends, they know. I don't see why it's necessary to advertise my personal life to every single person in my office building. Thanks.

I think the problem is when gay men either in the gay community or on the net start getting together and agreeing with each other that everyone not doing exactly what they are doing is self-handicapped or self-limiting.

No kidding... I mean, if I was married for 20 years or whatever amount of time it was, I sure as hell wouldn't be bragging about slurping random cock online to other people but if that's someone's lifestyle, more power to you. Just don't be a judgmental jackass when someone else doesn't life the same life as you.

 

[bankside]

He willfully refuses to process what it means to be part of a normalized group. You could discuss it with him for 13 pages like I did and he would still pretend the concept is fictional or invalid by the end of it. Just saving you time.

And again, just to save us all time: Describing the differences between the way any two groups experience quality of life / social outcomes / de facto enjoyment of de jure rights as "privilege," when one group enjoys those things more fully, is intellectually vacuous and politically counter-productive. You can discuss it with the shark for 13 pages, and he would still pretend he's on to something.

 

[Soilwork]

The only thing handicapping anyone is judgmental twats like the poster above who thinks he's on the top of the gay totem pole hierarchy because he's so "out" that he deep throats hot dogs and jerks off with Jake Cruise on youtube.

AND again... we return to the attempted (and failed) porn shaming.... on a porn site.

This just exposes your own sexual hangups... not mine.

bragging about slurping random cock online.... Just don't be a judgmental jackass when someone else doesn't life the same life as you.

Hm.... indeed, Bae.