Cantor: Wall street Mob a vast left wing conspiracy

[JB3]

Since the method of financing is not universally the same, you're not necessarily correct.

Here the base method is property taxes. Some people screamed a few years back when the county commissioners approved variances for building permits, but the resulting construction resulted in roughly three-fifths of a million more dollars in the school fund. That's been covering deferred maintenance rather than adding teachers, and it will continue to do so until it adds facilities for new teachers.

Crazily, the increase will actually cut the state grants to districts....

Then there's the state timber fund, the state lottery....

Property taxes form the base most everywhere, which is why what I said is accurate. It isn't really an accurate portrayal to say that the 'resources for education are tied up by the wealthy and put to no good use'. Education funding cannot be that easily manipulated.

 

[JB3]

Our local district doesn't even have 1,000 teachers....

How many total teachers?

Like most unions in education, even though it is technically a 'teacher's' union, it also covers assistants, subs, and accountants in the district. All told, the union represents 8,000 members.

 

[CowboyBob]

The conservative right wingers are infiltrating the protests to undermine them.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...n-DC-protest/UPI-55921318292968/?spt=hs&or=tn

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...space-museum/2011/10/10/gIQAiGVtaL_story.html

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/...ing-d-c-protest-to-undermine-occupy-movement/

 

[Just_Believe18]

Like most unions in education, even though it is technically a 'teacher's' union, it also covers assistants, subs, and accountants in the district. All told, the union represents 8,000 members.

No... Teachers have their separate unions. There are unions for classified staff within school districts and typically both types of unions will support each other. However, there is different representation between certificated and classified staff. Substitute teachers are just the same as other teachers. They require a college degree and certification so they are appropriately represented by a teacher's union. I'm not sure how "assistants and accountants" account for several thousand more than teachers in general.

Hey, JB3. I think you should volunteer at your local school district. I'd recommend befriending some teachers who work in the public system and spend a school year shadowing them. I think you'd be downright surprised.

 

[JB3]

No... Teachers have their separate unions. There are unions for classified staff within school districts and typically both types of unions will support each other. However, there is different representation between certificated and classified staff. Substitute teachers are just the same as other teachers. They require a college degree and certification so they are appropriately represented by a teacher's union. I'm not sure how "assistants and accountants" account for several thousand more than teachers in general.

Hey, JB3. I think you should volunteer at your local school district. I'd recommend befriending some teachers who work in the public system and spend a school year shadowing them. I think you'd be downright surprised.

I work in the public school system as music teacher, so you're barking up the wrong tree with your condenscension

You're also wrong about the bolded part. We were discussing Milwaukee's school district and their teacher's union, the MTEA. (which, as I said, covers teachers, subs, accountants, etc.)

 

[fetaby]

If you think this is about left or right, you're wrong.

Political lap dogs can try to spin this. They will try to co-opt, infiltrate, debase, disenfranchise, make promises, break promises.

But this movement is about something bigger than two political parties.

It's about putting profits above people. It's about destroying our world for a profit margin.

And it's about 32 years too late.

It doesn't really matter if this movement is successful or not. If it does succeed and is able to divorce corporate interests from our government, and then to impose regulations on those corporations, the problems inherent in our economic model of mass consumption will not have been addressed.

We've become a disposable society. And soon our trash will kill us.

 

[Kulindahr]

Property taxes form the base most everywhere, which is why what I said is accurate. It isn't really an accurate portrayal to say that the 'resources for education are tied up by the wealthy and put to no good use'. Education funding cannot be that easily manipulated.

Property taxes aren't enough to even run and staff the schools, where I am, and in many other places -- and that's without the teachers. To have teachers, thanks especially to the meddling of the Department of Education, we have to have money from the state general fund and the federal government.

And the funding from the legislature is very easily manipulated. We could solve the funding problem for ALL the state's schools with a simple 5% surtax on those with incomes over $300,000 -- but the argument is never about fixing our schools or providing modern equipment and supplies for science labs, it's always about "don't penalize the successful!"

 

[Kulindahr]

I work in the public school system as music teacher, so you're barking up the wrong tree with your condenscension

You're also wrong about the bolded part. We were discussing Milwaukee's school district and their teacher's union, the MTEA. (which, as I said, covers teachers, subs, accountants, etc.)

In Oregon, unless they changed it while I wasn't looking, only educators are members of the teachers union. Educator means teachers, substitute teachers, teaching assistants, special education specialists -- and no secretaries or accountants or janitors or such. It's people who teach in one form or another, period.

 

[JB3]

In Oregon, unless they changed it while I wasn't looking, only educators are members of the teachers union. Educator means teachers, substitute teachers, teaching assistants, special education specialists -- and no secretaries or accountants or janitors or such. It's people who teach in one form or another, period.

You misunderstand. I was only talking about Milwaukee's union. Around here, support staff are also included in the union that represents the teachers.

 

[JB3]

Property taxes aren't enough to even run and staff the schools, where I am, and in many other places -- and that's without the teachers. To have teachers, thanks especially to the meddling of the Department of Education, we have to have money from the state general fund and the federal government.

And the funding from the legislature is very easily manipulated. We could solve the funding problem for ALL the state's schools with a simple 5% surtax on those with incomes over $300,000 -- but the argument is never about fixing our schools or providing modern equipment and supplies for science labs, it's always about "don't penalize the successful!"

In many states property taxes make up the bulk of school funding. In my local district, the bulk of its $250 million budget comes directly from property taxes. As a base, that is not at all easily manipulated.

I was trying NOT to go into this because its so involved, but anything related to funding would require a wholesale shift in how education is set up in the US. Hundreds of laws would have to be rewritten at the state level, federal law would have to be rewritten, and every school district in the US would have to be re-organized. The politics involved in that would make it impossible, from both a logistical and a political point of view.

 

[T-Rexx]

Except they're NOT and that's the point. When it comes down to a district choosing whether to fire a dozen teachers or keeping [STRIKE]viagra[/STRIKE] insulin in the prescription plan, any rational and thinking person would choose the employment of those teachers.

Fixed it for ya. This is not about Viagra. It's about maintaining normal health for our population. You're trying to make health care sound inconsequential, by claiming a desire by workers to have reasonable health care is an unreasonable request.

You contend that the USA does not have the resources to do what virtually every other country in the developed world has already done.

Perhaps the Republican transformation of the USA into a 3rd world country is almost complete.

Oh, and erectile dysfunction is most certainly not a disease.

If erectile dysfunction is not a disease, then the ability to have an erection cannot be normal health. I wonder why evolution would give us (and most other mammals) such a useless feature?

I would contend that erectile performance is important to the sex act and reproduction of our species. Failure of erections is a failure of normal health. And that is what we call "disease."

Do you even understand how education funding is raised? That ^ nonsense proves you don't.

And what does the mechanism of funding have to do with whether or not the nation has the resources to afford it?

You miss the point of OWS. If current ways of running America are inadequate, then we need to find new ways.

I would prefer an america where people would choose to pay more out of pocket for a drug that is [STRIKE]not[/STRIKE] a medical necessity if it meant that their employer could hire more people. It is emblematic of the selfishness of Americans that these teachers would actively attempt to choose the drug over their colleagues.

Fixed it for ya, again.

This is about health care. You're trying to make health care sound inconsequential, vain, selfish, and extravagant. When did taking care of the sick become a selfish character flaw? The fact that every other developed nation on earth has solved this problem is proof that none of those things are true.

We judge human culture on this planet - historically and now - by the extent to which those cultures care (or cared) for the least able among their members. By this measure, the USA is failing badly.

That is unacceptable. Republicans believe that America cannot afford to be great. We disagree.

 

[White Eagle]

The conservative right wingers are infiltrating the protests to undermine them.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...n-DC-protest/UPI-55921318292968/?spt=hs&or=tn

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...space-museum/2011/10/10/gIQAiGVtaL_story.html

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/...ing-d-c-protest-to-undermine-occupy-movement/

I read those links this AM. Good stuff. We need more reporters covering this.

I ran across this article about one girl at the OWS. A couple of paras really funny. It seems undercover cops are infiltrating also to find the leaders. This girl thinks it is to arrest the leaders. Read on.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15268...e_petrified_of_occupy_wall_street?page=entire

Why Corporate Elites Should Be Petrified of Occupy Wall Street

--snip--

“The undercover cops are the only ones who ask, ‘Who’s the leader?’ ” she said. “Presumably, if they know who our leaders are they can take them out. The fact is we have no leader. There’s no leader, so there’s nothing they can do.

“There was a woman [in the medics unit]. This guy was pretending to be a reporter. The first question he asks is, ‘Who’s the leader?’ She goes, ‘I’m the leader.’ And he says, ‘Oh yeah, what are you in charge of?’ She says, ‘I’m in a charge of everything.’ He says, ‘Oh yeah? What’s your title?’ She says ‘God.’ ”

 

[Jack Springer]

^^^

Secret leaders?

I'm guessing the secret leader is George Soros or that guy wearing the tin-foil hat.

 

[fetaby]

Secret leaders?

So secret even they don't know they exist.

 

[Kulindahr]

T-Rexx, you're distorting or deliberately misrepresenting JB3's point. He's not talking about denying health care, he's saying Viagra doesn't have anything to do with health care.

And he has a point: in a population of 8,000, having 1,000 people with a medical need for Viagra is bogus.

 

[JB3]

Fixed it for ya. This is not about Viagra. It's about maintaining normal health for our population. You're trying to make health care sound inconsequential, by claiming a desire by workers to have reasonable health care is an unreasonable request.

Viagra is not necessary for normal health. Not by any stretch of the reasonable imagination.

You contend that the USA does not have the resources to do what virtually every other country in the developed world has already done.

Perhaps the Republican transformation of the USA into a 3rd world country is almost complete.

Your hyperbole betrays the fact that you have no point. The school district had finite resources. And you're saying its perfectly appropriate for them to spend those resources on Viagra over jobs. Nice to know you side with George W. Bush's job's policy.

If erectile dysfunction is not a disease, then the ability to have an erection cannot be normal health. I wonder why evolution would give us (and most other mammals) such a useless feature?

I would contend that erectile performance is important to the sex act and reproduction of our species. Failure of erections is a failure of normal health. And that is what we call "disease."

Erectile dysfunction is not a disease. Sex is not necessary for normal health. Viagra is a RECREATIONAL prescription drug.

And what does the mechanism of funding have to do with whether or not the nation has the resources to afford it?

You miss the point of OWS. If current ways of running America are inadequate, then we need to find new ways.

Are you joking? The mechanism of funding has everything to do with whether the nation has the resources. The money doesn't just come out of thin air. The mechanism is inadequate, so there is not enough funding. In this case, excessive spending on unneeded prescription drugs is also affecting funding.

Fixed it for ya, again.

This is about health care. You're trying to make health care sound inconsequential, vain, selfish, and extravagant. When did taking care of the sick become a selfish character flaw? The fact that every other developed nation on earth has solved this problem is proof that none of those things are true.

What nation on earth provides viagra coverage no questions asked? Your argument is a false one. These people are selfish. Viagra has nothing to do with healthcare. It is not required. It is an optional drug, which is why many insurance companies will not cover it. People with erectile dysfunction are NOT sick, and they DO have a character flaw if they're willing to choose an optional drug over their employer continuing to employee their colleagues. You are trying to paint these people as the great sick and disabled, but they are not so.

We judge human culture on this planet - historically and now - by the extent to which those cultures care (or cared) for the least able among their members. By this measure, the USA is failing badly.

The inability to get a hardon does not make a guy the 'least able'. Any rational person knows that. You're trying to turn this into an emotional argument, where there is none.

That is unacceptable. Republicans believe that America cannot afford to be great. We disagree.

Viagra makes america great? I'll repeat again: The fact that some teachers would willingly choose an OPTIONAL drug over their school district being able to employ a dozen or more teachers is sickening. It is selfish, un-American, and despicable. There is no argument whatsoever that you or they can put forth that would make it acceptable for these people to make this argument. Which, by the way, is why they ended up dropping the lawsuit. They recognized that their request was ridiculous, and that having to pay a little more out of pocket for a drug that was not vital for their health in exchange for keeping a dozen or more teachers on the payroll was a reasonable request. They, unlike you, recognized how wrong it was to have teachers fired in exchange for viagra.

 

[Kulindahr]

Erectile dysfunction is not a disease. Sex is not necessary for normal health. Viagra is a RECREATIONAL prescription drug.

Just for fun I asked some doctors. When I suggested it was a "recreational" drug, I got laughed at. They said yes, it gets used that way, but it's not smart to do so; it's a drug for treating a medical disorder.

But for interest I asked how many people in a population they'd expect to prescribe it to, with an age range from 25 to 65. Out of your population of 8k educators, by their figures your teacher's union should be seeing 150 - 200 viagra prescriptions.

The problem is doctors giving it out when not needed. It's a medical drug being used as a recreational drug.

 

[JB3]

Just for fun I asked some doctors. When I suggested it was a "recreational" drug, I got laughed at. They said yes, it gets used that way, but it's not smart to do so; it's a drug for treating a medical disorder.

But for interest I asked how many people in a population they'd expect to prescribe it to, with an age range from 25 to 65. Out of your population of 8k educators, by their figures your teacher's union should be seeing 150 - 200 viagra prescriptions.

The problem is doctors giving it out when not needed. It's a medical drug being used as a recreational drug.

The term 'recreational' is being confused here. It is recreational in that it is not necessary in the same way that heart medicine or cholesterol medication would be. It is classed differently than those medications, and is treated differently by insurers and doctors alike because of that. 'Recreational' was not being used in the same way that T-rexx is trying to use it.

 

[Just_Believe18]

I work in the public school system as music teacher, so you're barking up the wrong tree with your condenscension

You're also wrong about the bolded part. We were discussing Milwaukee's school district and their teacher's union, the MTEA. (which, as I said, covers teachers, subs, accountants, etc.)

Then I am even more dismayed by your criticisms towards your own union. Especially with the kind of teacher you are, your program and job position would be the first thing to go in an anti-education, anti-union Republican leadership decision. The salary you have, the benefits you enjoy, and the protections given to your job are all the results of years of your union negotiating with your school district. Do you honestly believe you'd be in the position you have now if Admin was making every decision?

It seems like we have different knowledge on how education is funded by each state. Your state is certainly unique from other states that I know of. However, to demonize teacher unions in general because of a couple of hand-picked stories you want to tout is disingenuous to your profession and the benefits you have as an educator. There are education unions all across this country that work very hard to protect public education because a free education is necessary to the survival of this nation. Republican backed vouchers and private schools have long been proven to award the privileged and disenfranchise the average American family.

You need to do more research about across the board salary cuts happening to teachers in this nation. As an example, Washington state teachers had to take a 1.9% salary cut across the board this year. This is on top of salary freezes over the last couple of years, and the state is considering taking over the healthcare benefits of all teachers to save money. There, you've heard of one now.

 

[T-Rexx]

T-Rexx, you're distorting or deliberately misrepresenting JB3's point. He's not talking about denying health care, he's saying Viagra doesn't have anything to do with health care.

And he has a point: in a population of 8,000, having 1,000 people with a medical need for Viagra is bogus.

Nonsense.

JB3 is misrepresenting the point.

The point is that teachers want a reasonable health care plan. He's trying to turn it into a silly argument about Viagra.