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Christianity and Sexuality - "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" ???

paintact

paintact

Sex God
Joined
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Hey everyone,
Ok, when it comes to this whole religion vs. sexuality thing...there are a couple things that are starting to REALLY bother the hell out me -

1. "Love the sinner, Hate the sin"
What the hell is that? It makes no logical sense. I suppose that means they ultimately think sexuality is a choice. And I'm getting really sick of people using their 'gay friends/family members/etc" as a way to excuse this irrational thinking. So basically, you don't see me (or people like me) as your equal? A true equal? You're a friend, family member, neighbor, co-worker...you're just fundamentally a little less than me...?
Seriously?

2. "It's not the sexuality we condemn, it's the behavior"
Again, what the hell is that? So we can go to your church, pray to the same god, eat each others food, laugh together, hang out, etc... just at the end of the day, you have to suppress who you are. While we all make out, fuck, love, marry, and divorce our significant others, your kind just has to sit there... alone. Forever.
Once again, you're just fundamentally a little less than us.
Seriously?

3. "It's not our place to judge. Only God can"
Again, I hear this all the time - I'm not judging anyone...we don't judge. And yet, at the end of the day, if they are type to think it's a choice, that they 'love the sinner, hate the sin', etc... to me, that is still judging. It's not true unconditional love. Because you still don't get it.
In the end, it just feels like we are being tolerated...and pandered to.



So ultimately, what do you folks think? Are you as sick and tired of this as I am?
One part of me feels bad because I am beginning to be wary of anyone that identifies as Christian...not because I want to be intolerant (that is so against my nature), but because I now always wonder am I simply being "tolerated", when deep down you really don't see me as your equal in humanity?
And ultimately, I know not all Christians believe this or think this way... but then why don't they speak up against this? The more research I do, I seem to come across more of the 'conditional' love and acceptance Christians who only want to see it their way, rather than the ones that truly accept and knowledge the reality of sexuality. So are they out there? And if they are, why don't they speak up?

Share your thoughts... particularly on points 1 and 2.
Am I alone in feeling fed up with this?


(ps. I do want to say that I suppose it even angers me more because I was raised a Christian in the Catholic church. These ideas are so the anti-thesis to everything I was taught to believe as a Christian. My faith was a personal thing and not to be shoved down anyone's throats. That ultimately I was to be compassionate and love without pretense or condition. To care for those less fortunate in any way (the hungry, poor, or simply lonely and outcast.) To try to leave this world a bit better than when I came into it. And I never once remember hearing anything preached to me on sexuality (or abortion). On a side note, I don't identify as one now. I simply consider myself "spiritual".)
 
Tons of Christians do speak out against this. So you SHOULD feel guilty about these prejudices that are creeping into your mind. Hopefully guilty enough to rid yourself of them because some of those Christians you're wary of are doing more for our advancement than a lot of JUBers, dare I say they're doing more than you?

And whether or not the bible condemns homosexuality depends on whether you adhere to the modern English version or the original text, which did not condemn same-sex pairings, rather married men who were cheating on their wives with other men, along with practicing the occult and engaging in ritualistic anal sex to praise the god(dess?) of fertility. In short, the original text condemned what we consider to be downlow men.
 
paintact said:
Hey everyone,
Ok, when it comes to this whole religion vs. sexuality thing...there are a couple things that are starting to REALLY bother the hell out me -

1. "Love the sinner, Hate the sin"
What the hell is that? It makes no logical sense. I suppose that means they ultimately think sexuality is a choice. And I'm getting really sick of people using their 'gay friends/family members/etc" as a way to excuse this irrational thinking. So basically, you don't see me (or people like me) as your equal? A true equal? You're a friend, family member, neighbor, co-worker...you're just fundamentally a little less than me...?
Seriously?

2. "It's not the sexuality we condemn, it's the behavior"
Again, what the hell is that? So we can go to your church, pray to the same god, eat each others food, laugh together, hang out, etc... just at the end of the day, you have to suppress who you are. While we all make out, fuck, love, marry, and divorce our significant others, your kind just has to sit there... alone. Forever.
Once again, you're just fundamentally a little less than us.
Seriously?

3. "It's not our place to judge. Only God can"
Again, I hear this all the time - I'm not judging anyone...we don't judge. And yet, at the end of the day, if they are type to think it's a choice, that they 'love the sinner, hate the sin', etc... to me, that is still judging. It's not true unconditional love. Because you still don't get it.
In the end, it just feels like we are being tolerated...and pandered to.



So ultimately, what do you folks think? Are you as sick and tired of this as I am?
One part of me feels bad because I am beginning to be wary of anyone that identifies as Christian...not because I want to be intolerant (that is so against my nature), but because I now always wonder am I simply being "tolerated", when deep down you really don't see me as your equal in humanity?
And ultimately, I know not all Christians believe this or think this way... but then why don't they speak up against this? The more research I do, I seem to come across more of the 'conditional' love and acceptance Christians who only want to see it their way, rather than the ones that truly accept and knowledge the reality of sexuality. So are they out there? And if they are, why don't they speak up?

Share your thoughts... particularly on points 1 and 2.
Am I alone in feeling fed up with this?


(ps. I do want to say that I suppose it even angers me more because I was raised a Christian in the Catholic church. These ideas are so the anti-thesis to everything I was taught to believe as a Christian. My faith was a personal thing and not to be shoved down anyone's throats. That ultimately I was to be compassionate and love without pretense or condition. To care for those less fortunate in any way (the hungry, poor, or simply lonely and outcast.) To try to leave this world a bit better than when I came into it. And I never once remember hearing anything preached to me on sexuality (or abortion). On a side note, I don't identify as one now. I simply consider myself "spiritual".)
Click to expand...

All three are platitudes that Christians dreamed up to sugar-coat the plain teachings of the Bible. First of all, God does not separate the sin from the sinner. Sinners sin, and sinners will be punished. That doesn't sound much like love to me. No, God hates sinners. That's why he created hell for people who twist his words.

Second, the Bible doesn't consider sexuality apart from behavior or desire. Jesus said that he who lusts after a woman has committed adultery with her already in his heart. God hates lustful thoughts. They are as hateful to him as the behavior itself, and God will send people to hell where they will roast forever for their lust as quickly as for their lies about his word.

Third, God expects us to judge. He tells us to sit in judgment on ourselves then on other people. If we can't judge one another how will we judge angels? Paul said that he judges all things and that we should, too. What we can't do is to make up our own standard wherewith we let ourselves and other people off the hook. God has told us in his word what he expects of us, and he will judge us and others according to it. We should judge with that same judgment so that we can tell people what they can expect for their sins--hell, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.



These people have correctly understood the Christian message from Genesis to Revelation.



On a side note, I have renounced God and all his ways. I am the enemy of God. I'm the one your pastor warned you about.
 
Karen_Walker said:
Tons of Christians do speak out against this. So you SHOULD feel guilty about these prejudices that are creeping into your mind. Hopefully guilty enough to rid yourself of them because some of those Christians you're wary of are doing more for our advancement than a lot of JUBers, dare I say they're doing more than you?
Click to expand...

I do feel bad... because as I said, it is so against the way I was raised (even though I don't exactly identify as Christian today). I know those other Christians who are truly Christ-like without condition, that can accept and acknowledge the truth for what it is, are out there... but why is it that it seems everywhere I look, it's the opposite that I continue to come across. Why aren't those others louder, calling out their illogical, hypocritical fellow "Christians"? Because honestly, I rarely see it.
That is why I suppose I'm always a little wary. It's why I usually ask some questions on these things to find out their specific point of view on a few things before I make any final judgment. But in today's world, that seems to be getting harder...

I suppose it comes down to the constant "As a Christian, I am called to love and not judge, and I love all people"... but when they continue on with their viewpoint that something like sexuality is a choice, then it does not add up. It just seems so illogical. That "love", to me, is disingenuous. It's not true love... it's simply tolerance. And at the end of the day, it's still judgment.
 
Remember, folks, tolerance is bad! Stop doing that! Sorry...

1) "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

We all screw up. You're supposed to bear that in mind, and thus love someone even if they screw up. It's also recognizing that a person you love has annoying traits, sorta like how complain about guys leaving the seat on the toilet up or guys hating that women apparently like being half-an-hour late after yelling at us to be ready on time.

2) "It's not the sexuality we condemn, it's the behavior."

This is what is said about any group that parties a little hard. Too many sites emphasize the behavior that happens at gay pride activities. It's a little hard to defend your sexuality as being hard-working people that deserve to adopt kids when I can go to a site of people running around in banana hammocks, a twink or bear in one hand, a fruity drink in the other, with tongues down someone's throat. That may be a fun guy, but do you want someone like that raising kids? Those pics make great fodder! Have fun, but realize that what you post online will have impact somewhere.

3) "It's not our place to judge. Only God can."

Obviously we will judge; for some of us, it's part of our job. However, this is more of a call to not judge others based on what we necessarily consider right and to allow that our decisions are not the only right ones. You may not like that people spank kids; I have no problem as long as it's done responsibly (i.e., as a punishment and as little as possible (there are usually more effective methods, but those methods are not always as effective as a good swat)). There are some universals that need to be kept in mind (if you are attacked, I'm probably going to defend you), but it's a recognition that two equally intelligent people can arrive at two entirely different results.

Sorry; just not getting why you're having a problem with these...

RG
 
RobinGoodfellow said:
I can go to a site of people running around in banana hammocks, a twink or bear in one hand, a fruity drink in the other, with tongues down someone's throat. That may be a fun guy, but do you want someone like that raising kids?
Click to expand...

My jaw hit the floor here. So only boring librarians make good parents? Since when does having a drink and a boyfriend mean we should question if they should raise kids?
 
Christ had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality.

Period.
 
loki81 said:
in religion classes in high school, it was taught to us that the position of the church is that sex should be for the purposes of making babies.

so, while people may be born gay, partaking in homosexual sex is the same sin as having sex while using contraceptives.
Click to expand...

Since when does THE CHURCH determine what's a sin and what isn't? I thought that's what the bible is for.
 
rareboy said:
Christ had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality.

Period.
Click to expand...

That's another one of those facts Christians dodge like the plague, along with verses that allow you to beat your slave and marry your rape victim. I've NEVER heard a sermon about beating your slave although the bible is surprisingly graphic in describing how this should be done (it's a sin unless it takes them two days to die from their injuries, meaning less beating, more slow-torture).
 
Ok...here is where I take an issue with some of this reasoning - this idea that people equate non-heterosexuality with sin when there is enough scientific research and intellectual analysis to at least show that there is something to this that is NOT a choice.

That's what I take issue with. I see this need from them to equate it with pre-marital sex, contraceptives, or simply making bad choices. That's such a weak argument. Those things ARE choices. People choose what they want to believe politically or spiritually... if they choose to engage in pre-marital sex, contraceptives (a good idea, mind you), etc. that is their choice . Those are choices. To equate that to the inherent makeup of sexuality and why it is what it is does not make sense. People do not choose to be hardwired to be attracted to the same gender or both genders. What is it going to take for people to truly understand that...so they can see that their 'non-heterosexuality = sin argument' is an illogical fallacy?
That argument, to me, is so weak. They continue to make it because from what I've seen, people from that perspective still fundamentally think it is a choice. It's not.
 
Don't you see? Responsibility does not derive from the ability to do otherwise. Responsibility follows from God's standard. To be a sin, it doesn't matter whether or not it's a choice. The choice isn't ours. The choice is God's. God created some to show his mercy through salvation and others, yea the vast majority, to show his justice through perdition.
 
It isn't true Christians who have trouble with homos.

It is the Old Testamentarian fundamentalists who believe that Paul has the same authority as God/Christ Himself.

But Christ let everyone know that He is the perfection of the old testament.

One notices, for instance that God has a lot to say about adultery, but nothing to say on cock-sucking.
 
Karen_Walker said:
My jaw hit the floor here. So only boring librarians make good parents? Since when does having a drink and a boyfriend mean we should question if they should raise kids?
Click to expand...

Greater context is your friend. Having a drink and a boyfriend, no prob. However, when attempting to convince an adoption agency to allow you to take home a child, as mentioned in the post as the being the greater context here, demonstration of licentious behavior will usually not win you the kid, whether you are gay or straight.

The same problem presents itself for heterosexual parents who also show what they did on vacation to Mexico; it's unlikely that those Tijuana pictures of Mommy in a topless bikini on Daddy's blog are going to win them any points either. Keep the fun pictures hidden until after the adoption, at least...

RG
 
Karen_Walker said:
That's another one of those facts Christians dodge like the plague, along with verses that allow you to beat your slave and marry your rape victim. I've NEVER heard a sermon about beating your slave although the bible is surprisingly graphic in describing how this should be done (it's a sin unless it takes them two days to die from their injuries, meaning less beating, more slow-torture).
Click to expand...
First off; Jesus really did have nothing to say about homosexuality. That was a misinterpretation of what PAUL said later on (he was referring to a specific group that got broadened into homosexuals in general in the King James version).

I can't really answer for the slave, but I can take a shot at the rape victim. The reason for marrying for the rape victim was that you had already established that you had intimate relations with the woman, so may as well as take all the way. HOWEVER, Daddy did have the option of asking for financial compensation instead if he so desired. And Heaven help you if she was already married.


RG
 
rareboy said:
It isn't true Christians who have trouble with homos.

It is the Old Testamentarian fundamentalists who believe that Paul has the same authority as God/Christ Himself.

But Christ let everyone know that He is the perfection of the old testament.

One notices, for instance that God has a lot to say about adultery, but nothing to say on cock-sucking.
Click to expand...

Deuteronomy 20:6

RG
 
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