Citizens Should Work and Pay a Tax to Qualify for Universal Healthcare [SPLIT]

[Benvolio]

If universal coverage were a right would that not mean that every able bodied person has an obligation to work and pay some income tax? It is illogical the think that a few people have the obligation while eveyone else has the right to get every thing free. Isn't free food more important than free healthcare? Free housing, free fuel?

 

[peeonme]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

If universal coverage were a right would that not mean that every able bodied person has an obligation to work and pay some income tax? It is illogical the think that a few people have the obligation while eveyone else has the right to get every thing free. Isn't free food more important than free healthcare? Free housing, free fuel?

Well, my friend, I can build a house. I can grow food. If I am cold or hungry I can see to these needs, I can shoot an animal and start a fire.
However, I never got my medical degree, I am disgraced.

 

[otters]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

If universal coverage were a right would that not mean that every able bodied person has an obligation to work and pay some income tax?

Benvolio, very unfortunately you appear to confuse the two basically different social insurance systems in question, the Bismarckian model and the Beveridge model.

It is illogical the think that a few people have the obligation while eveyone else has the right to get every thing free. Isn't free food more important than free healthcare? Free housing, free fuel?

[LOL, shouldn't you actually have learned some legal history, no? And: What is "free" in your opinion?]

 

[rareboy]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

If universal coverage were a right would that not mean that every able bodied person has an obligation to work and pay some income tax? It is illogical the think that a few people have the obligation while eveyone else has the right to get every thing free. Isn't free food more important than free healthcare? Free housing, free fuel?

This is so stupid.

Income tax isn't the only source of income for health care.

You are so hung up on the broken income tax system in the US that you fail to understand how health care is funded in other civilized countries.

People are paying consumption taxes every day and this is part of everyone's contribution toward these services.

In Canada health is administered by the provinces with revenue flowing from harmonized goods and services taxes and corporate income tax. In fact, because of the reasonable costs of health care in Canada, corporations benefit by not having to cover bloated, ineffective insurance plans for basic care and enjoy a healthier more dependable workforce. There is no question that in an aging population, provision of appropriate, effective care to the greatest number of people is a challenge, particularly after a deep recession caused by the US Wall Street wizards. But it is cheaper to keep everyone as healthy as possible and in Canada the focus has shifted since 1990 to preventive medicine and primary care instead of expensive and largely ineffective tertiary and quaternary crisis interventions.

Nothing is free and no one is saying that it should be. But if I had my choice as a citizen of the US, I probably would be asking for my tax dollars to be directed toward the health of me an my family instead of the military industrial complex producing excess materiel that then has to be unleashed somewhere else in the world.

Benvolio. Every time you post something on JUB, you display the most obstinate and unimaginably jejune inability to understand some of the simplest concepts and precepts.

 

[otters]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

Nothing is free and no one is saying that it should be. But if I had my choice as a citizen of the US, I probably would be asking for my tax dollars to be directed toward the health of me an my family instead of the military industrial complex producing excess materiel that then has to be unleashed somewhere else in the world.

There's a saying: Only the death is free — and that is costing one's life

BTW, the most expensive systems — particularly the US American "private" health insurances — certainly don't have the effect of a longer life span. Quite contrary:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_system#International_comparisons

 

[star-warrior]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

If universal coverage were a right would that not mean that every able bodied person has an obligation to work and pay some income tax? It is illogical the think that a few people have the obligation while eveyone else has the right to get every thing free. Isn't free food more important than free healthcare? Free housing, free fuel?

There's lots of different types of taxation besides income tax. For those who you are concerned about, the able bodied but lacking a job types (lazy folk, early retirees, rich, etc), if they don't qualify for government benefits they still have to pay local rates which include the upkeep of street lighting and road maintenance, trash collection, policing, fire and ambulance services etc, there's value added tax (VAT) on alchohol (as you're gonna say some of these folk partake too much of that vice), and cigarettes, hot food (as you know these lazy people like getting takeout food), petrol if they have a car, airport tax if they fly, tax on consumables, such as gas, electricity, water and telephony services if they have them, are just a few that are incorporated into the price of everyday consumables that the general public pay without much grumble, and the tax thereon is creamed off by the Treasury to grease the spending of government.

Nothing is free, like I and others have mentioned, our tax system pays for the National Health Service, and ultimately that tax is paid by everyone, including the tourists that visit the UK, and those which you deride as being somewhat unworthy because they aren't in employment.

 

[T-Rexx]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

If universal coverage were a right would that not mean that every able bodied person has an obligation to work and pay some income tax?

A right is something that is granted to a person by virtue of his humanity. Rights, by definition, come without obligation.

You claim to be a lawyer. And yet you don't understand the concept of rights, which is the whole point of having a constitution.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

A right is something that is granted to a person by virtue of his humanity. Rights, by definition, come without obligation.

You claim to be a lawyer. And yet you don't understand the concept of rights, which is the whole point of having a constitution.

A right can only exist if it is upheld by the obligations of others.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

Actually, I almost got caught up in that as well. It took my post (#2) ages to load. Even then, I was asked if I wanted to 'leave the page'. Experience told me that, even when you don't think it was posted, it really was.

A right can only exist if it is upheld by the obligations of others.

Exactly right. One cannot have a right to free health care unless another or others have the obligation to give it. And you cannot logically say that some people are obligated to give free care, while other people who could work have no obligation work and contribute.
And TRexx, nothing in the Constitution gives anyone a right to health care. If you understood the concept of rights, you would know that it is meaningless to call something a right absent an enforceable law giving the right.

 

[peeonme]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Some believe that health care would come under general welfare. Nothing is "free" including war.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

Actually, I almost got caught up in that as well. It took my post (#2) ages to load. Even then, I was asked if I wanted to 'leave the page'. Experience told me that, even when you don't think it was posted, it really was.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Some believe that health care would come under general welfare. Nothing is "free" including war.

'General welfare" does not mean welfare as it is now used, and certainly not free healthcare. The Federal government did not get involved in those for the first 200 years. The preamble is not operative as a grant of power. The government has only those powers expressly delegated to it, all others being reserved to the states or the people.
Universal healthcare would be free to most people. 40% of taxpayers pay 106% of the income tax.

 

[mikey3000]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

This is so stupid.

Income tax isn't the only source of income for health care.

You are so hung up on the broken income tax system in the US that you fail to understand how health care is funded in other civilized countries.

People are paying consumption taxes every day and this is part of everyone's contribution toward these services.

In Canada health is administered by the provinces with revenue flowing from harmonized goods and services taxes and corporate income tax. In fact, because of the reasonable costs of health care in Canada, corporations benefit by not having to cover bloated, ineffective insurance plans for basic care and enjoy a healthier more dependable workforce. There is no question that in an aging population, provision of appropriate, effective care to the greatest number of people is a challenge, particularly after a deep recession caused by the US Wall Street wizards. But it is cheaper to keep everyone as healthy as possible and in Canada the focus has shifted since 1990 to preventive medicine and primary care instead of expensive and largely ineffective tertiary and quaternary crisis interventions.

Nothing is free and no one is saying that it should be. But if I had my choice as a citizen of the US, I probably would be asking for my tax dollars to be directed toward the health of me an my family instead of the military industrial complex producing excess materiel that then has to be unleashed somewhere else in the world.

Benvolio. Every time you post something on JUB, you display the most obstinate and unimaginably jejune inability to understand some of the simplest concepts and precepts.

Your superiority complex is showing again. Don't be so rude, it just makes you look low rent.

 

[T-Rexx]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

Exactly right. One cannot have a right to free health care unless another or others have the obligation to give it.

Of course it is true that that the members of a community will not pay equitably or even fairly for the cost of providing rights. That is what a right IS. The community has decided collectively that something is so important to human existence that most will work together to provide it for everyone. Of course there will be people who are unable to contribute. Of course there will be people who can contribute to the common good, but refuse to do so.

It doesn't matter. Everyone is granted the right, regardless of how underserving they may be. That is the definition of a right. It goes out to all, regardless of merit. And the community pays, regardless of fairness.

And you cannot logically say that some people are obligated to give free care, while other people who could work have no obligation work and contribute.

Of course I can say that. That is part of the definition of a right. It is granted to everyone, regardless of how worthless one may be.

If healthcare is a right, then everyone is granted that right equally. Even worthless freeloaders who could work, but don't. Even rich skinflints who could pay, but refuse to do so. A right is granted to everyone, whether or not they seem to deserve it.

My county buries its dead. Even those who do not pay. Over the years, we have buried some awful scum. Drug dealers and criminals and mass murderers. People who spent their lives trying to harm those who are now spending their hard-earned money on their burials. Peope who never lifted a finger to help the community, or contributed a dime in taxes when they might have. It doesn't matter. We do not do bear the cost of these burials because it is fair. We do this because we believe it makes our community a better place to live.

And TRexx, nothing in the Constitution gives anyone a right to health care.

I never claimed it did. YOU said that IF healthcare was a right, THEN "every able bodied person" has an "obligation" to pay taxes. That is not the issue. People who work may be obligated to pay taxes, but that has nothing to do with rights. Rights come without obligation. That is the definition of a right. A thing so fundamental to the human experience that we all work collectively to provide these things for everyone.

You don't surrender your right to life when you declare bankruptcy. You don't lose your right to worship the religion of your choice because you don't pay taxes. You don't lose your right to free speech because you are homeless. And a hospital can't refuse to treat you because you have no insurance.

There will always be some people disproportionately bearing the cost of the rights we all enjoy. There will always be some people sacrificing their lives to pay for rights we all enjoy. I am sorry that you are so offended to be forced to contibute to the welfare of people you do not care about. Some of us take pride in the fact that we do more than most to try to make our communities great.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

Guaranteed health care is in the interest of the State and the populace.

An expectation of work and productivity is as well. There is nothing unsavory or selfish about a shared ethic that presumes citizens will make contribution to the society in material ways. No one should be able-bodied and rewarded for sloth.

It's a two-way street. Get and give. Give and get.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

Of course it is true that that the members of a community will not pay equitably or even fairly for the cost of providing rights. That is what a right IS. The community has decided collectively that something is so important to human existence that most will work together to provide it for everyone. Of course there will be people who are unable to contribute. Of course there will be people who can contribute to the common good, but refuse to do so.

It doesn't matter. Everyone is granted the right, regardless of how underserving they may be. That is the definition of a right. It goes out to all, regardless of merit. And the community pays, regardless of fairness.




Of course I can say that. That is part of the definition of a right. It is granted to everyone, regardless of how worthless one may be.

If healthcare is a right, then everyone is granted that right equally. Even worthless freeloaders who could work, but don't. Even rich skinflints who could pay, but refuse to do so. A right is granted to everyone, whether or not they seem to deserve it.

My county buries its dead. Even those who do not pay. Over the years, we have buried some awful scum. Drug dealers and criminals and mass murderers. People who spent their lives trying to harm those who are now spending their hard-earned money on their burials. Peope who never lifted a finger to help the community, or contributed a dime in taxes when they might have. It doesn't matter. We do not do bear the cost of these burials because it is fair. We do this because we believe it makes our community a better place to live.




I never claimed it did. YOU said that IF healthcare was a right, THEN "every able bodied person" has an "obligation" to pay taxes. That is not the issue. People who work may be obligated to pay taxes, but that has nothing to do with rights. Rights come without obligation. That is the definition of a right. A thing so fundamental to the human experience that we all work collectively to provide these things for everyone.

You don't surrender your right to life when you declare bankruptcy. You don't lose your right to worship the religion of your choice because you don't pay taxes. You don't lose your right to free speech because you are homeless. And a hospital can't refuse to treat you because you have no insurance.

There will always be some people disproportionately bearing the cost of the rights we all enjoy. There will always be some people sacrificing their lives to pay for rights we all enjoy. I am sorry that you are so offended to be forced to contibute to the welfare of people you do not care about. Some of us take pride in the fact that we do more than most to try to make our communities great.

As long as you agree that universal health care is not a right. A "right" is meaningless if no one has a corresponding obligation to give it to you. A right to health care would be meaningless if no one was obligated to give it to you. If "society" has the obligation then everyone would be obligated to contribute.

 

[peeonme]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

As long as you agree that universal health care is not a right. A "right" is meaningless if no one has a corresponding obligation to give it to you. A right to health care would be meaningless if no one was obligated to give it to you. If "society" has the obligation then everyone would be obligated to contribute.

A right is not given, it exists and is acknowledged and protected by the government. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, with government being mentioned in the same document to insure these rights.

One can not have life if they are dead, our government protects life and punishes those who take it from others. In modern society part of protecting that life is to insure that all (not just the wealthy) have access to proper and adequate health care.

 

[dpnice]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

The USA health system doesn't seem to be run to serve the population but rather to provide income for insurance companies and I suppose medical institutions.

Here in France my medical fees are zero after having been declared with a long term illness. No doctor bills, no medicament charges and free treatment in hospital. The system is even better than the NH in England as waiting lists do not exist here; treatment is immediate.

But it costs a lot of money to run. I therefore do not understand why the USA cannot afford to set up a similar system; I suppose it is too late to change now. I do find it terrifying when I hear stories of people unable to have treatment just because they can't afford it.

What on earth does an unemployed, uninsured person with cancer do?

 

[Benvolio]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

A right is not given, it exists and is acknowledged and protected by the government. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, with government being mentioned in the same document to insure these rights.

One can not have life if they are dead, our government protects life and punishes those who take it from others. In modern society part of protecting that life is to insure that all (not just the wealthy) have access to proper and adequate health care.

Free health care has never been a legal right in the US, and you cannot distort the Constitution to create that right. Your argument would apply with greater force to free food. You will die soon without it, so why is there not a right to free food? Free shelter? Free clothing? So if you are right, everyone has a right to live in a communist country where everything is provided by the government, and no one has to work or pay for it.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Re: Anyone uninsured?

The unemployed uninsured actually fare better than those near-but-not-at the bottom. Verifiably indigent people get Medicaid.

 

[star-warrior]

Re: Anyone uninsured?