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Op-Ed Civility in American Politics - the ghost in the machine.

WRT the original post:

I agree, except that it isn't just the right. If I were to name the top five such egregious posters, two would be on the left, though they're not 100% consistent about it.
 
Well, the political discourse has never been more one-dimensional, more shallow, more poisonous, more misinformed or less related to the real world. Why would it be any surprise that the little sample of politically involved regular people (even if they're gay) that this forum represents isn't any different? Falling into that mentality is hard to notice for the one doing it. I'm sure Chance thinks he isn't behaving any differently than before. But the discourse has changed, it's become more hateful, more simple, more vilifying of the "enemy". The rhetoric has degraded on both sides, so even if it's the Republicans' fault, it's not like the Liberal side is much more sophisticated.
 
^^ Kulindar is correct- both sides are guilty of this and I think it takes a little self-awareness to realize this. While I tend to personally agree that the right is ludicrous regarding particularly social issues, I must point out that many of these issues are more complex than we often give them credit for. More government/less government, faith/science, personal accountability/fairness and equity, tradition/exploration... I mean... these are BIG, complex issues... if the answers were simple the country would not be so divided on them and the same party would win every election.

Don’t worry, this isn’t some pointless plea for people to be nice to one another.

What I want to talk about is why we’ve descended into petty name calling and “I know you are but what am I.”

For myself, I actually reported a post yesterday, and I never do that, and I wish I hadn’t, because unless something is really egregious, it’s basically whining.

So why did I do that? Because I was whining of course, but what pushed me there was 2 things, one that doesn’t concern this conversation and one that does.

The one that does is this, it is my contention that we are reduced to a lot of this pointlessness because of disrespect. The disrespect of certain posters who spew insulting garbage at the rest of us, maligning our legitimate opinions, name calling, dismissing even our patriotism, they post the most extreme garbage they don’t bother to research, attach lies to our positions without bothering to fact check, they won’t discuss, they won’t argue, all they do is spew and bait. You can tell them they don’t know what they’re talking about but they don’t care, all they want to do is hate and insult.

You know who you are.

Certainly we shouldn’t fall to that level, but when the other side not only will not engage, but will not even listen, what is left?

This is the fundamental problem with trying to talk to the right. They live in their fantasy world where liberals are hiding under every bush waiting to jump out at your daughter and force her to have an abortion. The lies they made up for themselves about everyone else are where they live.

Neither here nor anywhere else are we going to achieve some semblance of civility until the right and the faggots who bend over for them step out of their fantasy.

I find it offensive every time one of these guys maligns Liberals as America haters, so I point out that the right is full of Brownshirts and religious nutcases, they respond with more of the same and on it goes.

Because they aren’t interested in conversation, they are interested in contention that validates the lies they tell themselves about the rest of us.

So what to do? Nothing much really, just wanted to get that out of my system.

And if you are one of the usual suspects, don’t bother, I’m taking a page from your playbook and I don’t give a good god damn what you think of this.

I must say that beginning a post on such a self-righteous pretense and then suddenly right-angling into a rant about how horrible the right is is going to ruffle some feathers and is rightly going to be found as offensive...
 
Anyone who thinks that the US has sunk so low in politics hasn't read much about the early presidential elections.

Check out the election of Jefferson or Andrew Jackson.

Politics in the US has always been a rough and tumble, dirty affair.

The only difference is that on this board, the juvenile personal insults and the teen-aged 'It isn't FAIR' pity party comments that pepper the threads issues derail most of them. At the moment it is the Republican supporters that are feeling way outnumbered and besieged, but I also remember the Bush years.

But from what I read on other forums, it is also pretty tame stuff.
 
TX-Beau, yours is a very uncivil way to start a discussion of civility.
 
TX-Beau -- it appears you've fallen into the trap that most liberals (and a few conservatives) fall into.

You come to the conclusion that your opinions are correct and there is no other way to believe or look at things.

I suggest taking some time away from politics -- and the media.

Respect might be the key word.
 
There is a way to be respectful BY being blunt and to the point, consistently, and answer a real idea with a real idea.

When you dehumanize your opponent, as the GOP has tried to do for four years to the president, it demeans your position and people don't take you as seriously. The american voter is very very weary of all of the BS. meanwhile, The presidents fear of facing his political foes head on has angered his base over and over again, and it's a symptom of the same issue in reverse.

He fails to tell us as individuals how he helped us, and how he could in the future, and Trust me on this one ;), his reasoning is because the last thing the first african american president needs or wants is to be seen as the classic angry black man that conservatives have in their mind when they think of activist african american organisations, like the panthers, farakhan, or malcolm X even. It has been the driving force in his cold mannerisms that even have democratic congressmen screaming for a life raft at times and never getting it.

Obama is what he is, a calculating lawyer and politician, who plays for the the long game, not the short one.

He is THAT intentionally removed, and at some point we all have to ask ... Does any of this serve our nation and ourselves. Hate and fear reduce american politics to a pinball game, full of flashing lights and noise but if you really try to tilt the game, the show is over.

Right now the game needs to be tilted, because neither of the two presidential candidates feel they have to leave their safety zone to win.

We have become that divided as a nation, and yes, it most definitely IS due to a concerted GOP obstruction of congress, to damage the first black president that got us there. Romney is now polling ZERO in two polls conducted among african americans. I would imagine they believe that Obama has been unfairly treated, and that they have been vilified because of it. When Romney went to the NAACP convention and basically made fun of them to their face, and then went on later to a GOP fund raising event to brag about it, He jumped the shark with them.

I watch people jump the shark here with every post they make, and that is the issue. Strength of position with no conviction or reason is just plain anger.

passion and anger are two different things. Ask anyone who has had rough consensual sex because they like it that way, versus someone who was raped. There is a difference, and if you can't tell which is which, you probably ought not play in the field of politics.

I am all for going for the jugular OF AN IDEA, and respecting the person who made the post. Am I successful? not always, and who would want to be all the time.There are times when getting angry is not only not bad, but appropriate. Do you think that Washington was thinking warm fuzzy thoughts about King George OR John Adams?

He was not.

you have to give people their humanity, something so removed on the internet. You also need to show your own.
 
Morning Joe is a mess today.

Liberal jerkoff session.

Joe is what makes the show work.

The crap that repub's are the cause of all the nation's problems is crazy. However, if it's repeated enough by the MSM -- people start to wonder.

The democratic administration and congress could have do miracles in their first two years of complete control however they choose to put into law a mess of health care reform that the majority of Americans do not want.

What about the economy, jobs, the deficit, medicare, social security, and the trade deficit ... nothing.

To listen to MSM, the Obama Adminstration, and most liberals today -- the biggest problem with America is Mitt Romney not releasing 10 years of his tax returns.

Can anyone really believe that crap and stay sane?
 
It's not the biggest problem in america unless you want romney to win.

What the "libs" are saying out there on Joe Scarborough's program...lmao... is that the biggest problem with the GOP pres pick is that he refuses to tell america why he hides money in international accounts, How much money he made, how much money he gave his church, wont tell people what any of his policies are, has gaffes at the speed of light, lies even more quickly, and does all of that while appearing completely devoid of human emotion and personal values.
 
Morning Joe is a mess today.

Liberal jerkoff session.

Joe is what makes the show work.

The crap that repub's are the cause of all the nation's problems is crazy. However, if it's repeated enough by the MSM -- people start to wonder.

The democratic administration and congress could have do miracles in their first two years of complete control however they choose to put into law a mess of health care reform that the majority of Americans do not want.

What about the economy, jobs, the deficit, medicare, social security, and the trade deficit ... nothing.

To listen to MSM, the Obama Adminstration, and most liberals today -- the biggest problem with America is Mitt Romney not releasing 10 years of his tax returns.

Can anyone really believe that crap and stay sane?

Jonathan Capeheart is the NEW talking points liberal who no matter what the topic is attaching Romney/Ryan is a bad way

they could be talking about the NFL season and he somehow finds a way (badly) to personally attack a Republican

Willie Geist sure is special though

as for this thread why it is allowed to exist is a mystery

it's just an attack thread - not even disguised well - by an individual who usually does so quite well

the mods instead apologize to the "threader" - nauseating

as for you BP, perhaps you have not watched this campaign which has been Obama's team demonizing Romney from the get so

say what you want about Romney as a political figure - his changing positions, his lack of backbone with the right, his willingness to morph - i get it - everyone gets it - we could argue it's the nature of the republican primary set-up, dueling with the likes of santorum and bachman pulls you into the mud

romney is a good man - a great businessman - clean as a whistle - family guy - stood by his very sick wife - good father - saved the olympics after 911 - he's no hero but he's a good man

Obama's henchmen have run a rove-ian campaign - the same type YOU and others complain about

now your guy is doing it and you ignore it and support it and actually deny it's happening

u just don't have the moral ground here at all

and that ground is very important

to summarize

this thread is a hit piece

and all the dead jumping on hitting more

and the mods are not only letting it happen but supporting it

think of the mods as the mainstream media

cheerio
 
you don't get the moral high ground because it appears, by reading your posts, that you have yet to find it.
 
And one more thing chance...

Don't tell me what Mitt Romney is or isn't did or didn't

I am one of the poor fucks that had to have him for a governor, and you know what?

We decided after the experience we would prefer to NOT have him as president. I know you will spin this comment into some bizarre conspiracy full of unconnected dots, so I will just ask you this...

If Gore had won Tennissee, his home state, He would have been president, not that idiot Bush.

Do you know of ANY president who has failed to carry his home state. I know that Romney considers Massachusetts his home state because in 2010, he listed his sons unfinished basement as his primary residence to vote for Brown. If that is what an honest man is? I think I never want to meet anyone you trust, because your skills of observation are a bit off.

Why does someone hide money unless he feels the need to keep it hidden? why does he refuse to show his tax return, spitting on the memory of his fathers contribution to the presidential election process? Why does he run ads on Television riddled with lies?

oh yeah... he's a doozie. He is unhinged.

If you really want civility you have to learn to be honest, first to yourself, and second to the rest of us.
 
say what you want about Romney as a political figure - his changing positions, his lack of backbone with the right, his willingness to morph - i get it - everyone gets it - we could argue it's the nature of the republican primary set-up, dueling with the likes of santorum and bachman pulls you into the mud

romney is a good man - a great businessman - clean as a whistle - family guy - stood by his very sick wife - good father - saved the olympics after 911 - he's no hero but he's a good man

Obama's henchmen have run a rove-ian campaign - the same type YOU and others complain about

now your guy is doing it and you ignore it and support it and actually deny it's happening

u just don't have the moral ground here at all

I can only speak for one member of the "dead", but I for one:
- DO NOT ignore it
- DO NOT deny it's happening
- but I DO support it (that's unfortunately called politics in our day and age)

What I DO NOT support is the UTTERLY RIDICULOUS notion that the Obama campaign is any worse/unethical than the Romney campaign (or any other notable actual "Rove-ian" campaign in the past) in this regard. The difference is that the Obama attacks are actually working and it frustrates the hell out of the Republicans that they are losing at their own game.

Evidence:
- 2012 Republican Primary: Are you honestly going to claim that Romney did not carpet-bomb his opponents with at least as ruthless and ridiculous personal attacks/ "half"-truths?
- 2008 Presidential Election (and continuing with futility into this election): Obama is not American, birth certificate, Reverand Wright, Bill Ayers, Muslim sympathizer Barack "Hussein" Obama, socialist... but this is old hash. They tried. They failed. And now nooone cares anymore. But to suggest that the Romney campaign would not be using these things more if they worked is ABSURD.

The truth is both sides are slinging equal piles of shit, but the Obama shit is actually sticking, because the American public is giving more credence to it because:
-they deem it (correctly or incorrectly), in their infinite wisdom, to be more accurate and relevant shit
-it's new shit
-Mitt Romney has completely left himself open and vulnerable to the attacks by taking the purely unrighteous and political gamble of doing the things you mentioned (flip-flopping, not having a spine/ conviction about anything except that "being successful is nothing to be ashamed of", bowing to the far right at EVERY whim) and refusing to do things like releasing his tax returns and talk about things he is uncomfortable with/ feels are political damaging (like his faith, abortion, his actual governership, etc.)

NO CAMPAIGN in this election has the moral high ground with regard to campaign strategy. So, rather then making ridiculous blanket statements about "my campaign is holier than thine", how about we try to be educated human beings and deconstruct individual campaign statements/positions and talk in specifics occasionally?

As for Romney being a "good man"... that seems a tad subjective, but sure. I think Obama is a "good man" too. Whoop-de-doo!
 
TX-Beau -- it appears you've fallen into the trap that most liberals (and a few conservatives) fall into.

You come to the conclusion that your opinions are correct and there is no other way to believe or look at things.

I suggest taking some time away from politics -- and the media.

Respect might be the key word.

Ah, the good old liberal "all opinions are equal" ploy.

Conservatives are supposed to believe in objective truth, right? So conservatives should recognize that opinions are, in essence, irrelevant, because what matters is facts.

I know; today's Republican leaders don't believe this; by example, they demonstrate that they believe lies and deception are legitimate tools in discourse. But many people here recognize that when, for example, a partisan columnist puts out a piece based on falsehoods, it's perfectly legitimate to denounce it as trash -- and the same when a Republican presidential candidate makes and approves an ad that is pure fabrication.

And saying that it's pure fabrication is not opinion: it's documentable fact.
 
It's not the biggest problem in america unless you want romney to win.

What the "libs" are saying out there on Joe Scarborough's program...lmao... is that the biggest problem with the GOP pres pick is that he refuses to tell america why he hides money in international accounts, How much money he made, how much money he gave his church, wont tell people what any of his policies are, has gaffes at the speed of light, lies even more quickly, and does all of that while appearing completely devoid of human emotion and personal values.

I'd say there's a bigger problem, though it encompasses all that: him explaining why he thinks it's perfectly moral to have laws that provide the wealthy ways to get even wealthier that aren't available to anyone else, why he thinks it's okay to have a system where he doesn't even have to chip in as heavily as the rest of us, why he thinks it's fine to have a tax law system which actually moves money from the poor to the rich.
 
I'd say there's a bigger problem, though it encompasses all that: him explaining why he thinks it's perfectly moral to have laws that provide the wealthy ways to get even wealthier that aren't available to anyone else, why he thinks it's okay to have a system where he doesn't even have to chip in as heavily as the rest of us, why he thinks it's fine to have a tax law system which actually moves money from the poor to the rich.

IF Romney wins, and he enacts the Ryan budget, which he stated in the debates that he would sign unconditionally, and since he chose Ryan top run with I believe him.... If he wins his plan will change his effective tax rate to 1 percent of his income.

That is to be done by strip mining the safety net programs, in a way that Ryans Church leaders call Immoral. They plan to take food and medicine from the poor, the elderly, and the sick to give the Greediest of the greedy more dead money.

Staggering
 
If Gore had won Tennissee, his home state, He would have been president, not that idiot Bush.

I saw a piece that analyzed the voting patterns of gun owners and concluded that if Gore had retained his positions on firearms from when he was first elected to D.C., he would have carried not just Tennessee but another half-dozen close states.
 
[STRIKE]Lincoln: born in Kentucky (lost in both elections)[/STRIKE] registered to vote and campaigned in Illinois, a fact that Mr Obama dotes on at times.

[STRIKE]Nixon: born in New York (lost in 1968, won in 1972)[/STRIKE] the year he lost his home state he lost the presidency. The year he won his home state, he won the presidency

[STRIKE]GHWB: born in Massachusetts (lost in both elections)[/STRIKE] Registered to vote in Maine when his election ran. had roots to texas.. won them both.

[STRIKE]GWB: born in Connecticut (lost in both elections)[/STRIKE] registered to vote and governor of Texas, where he still resides.

Fixed that list for ya ;)
 
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