Cuba, what about trade?

[rareboy]

What you fail to realize is that the embargo was not primarily intended to bring down the regime. The primary purpose was to prevent soviet-allied communism from spreading in the Western Hemisphere. The danger was that with business from the US combined with subsidies from the USSR, communism would appear to other countries, particularly the dictatorships, to be a attractive deal. By playing the US and USSR against each other they would be able to extort benefits, or succumb to communist dictatorships.
Worse, it was feared that the USSR and Cuba would send military forces to subvert other regimes in the area. This, of course, did happen. Forces were sent by Cuba to overturn the elected government of Granada. Forces were sent to Nicaragua, Bolivia (remember Che died there) and others. Cuba sent an army to Angola for over a decade. It had a school on the Isle of Pines for subversives.
And, you are wrong. The strategy worked. No other country in the hemisphere went communist until out worst president, Carter, allowed it to happen in Nicaragua. And, the embargo has helped other democracies in the hemisphere as tourists and trade have gone to the Bahamas, Jamaica, Caymans which otherwise would have gone to Cuba.
All the while, Canada by its support, helped Castro to stay in power as one of the most oppressive regimes ever in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba's recent approach to the US was made out of desperation, suggesting that the people of Cuba might finally be able to achieve their freedom. Castro will reap enormous financial profits at the expense of other, friendly, countries. Obama's misguided support for the regime is a grievous mistake.

You've never been to Cuba have you? Desperate? Not hardly. Their whole world doesn't revolve around the US. Seriously. It doesn't.

And puhhhhlleeeze....don't try to tell me that the embargo was only to stop communism from spreading. It was not. And the US has the bay of pigs and attempted assassination of another country's leader on the record.

The testament to the Cuban people is that after 50 years of US oppression, they still have one of the highest literacy rates in the world....have a high standard of health care and have not devolved into a type of corrupt militaristic dictatorship like North Korea.

 

[rareboy]

True. A tiny, empoverished island like Cuba is relatively powerless. In terms of international relations, this was a good move by the USA. The embargo was looking increasingly irrational. Like an elderly man's grudge against his lifelong neighbour.
The context has changed.

This is all it has been. A lot of cranky old Cubans and anti-communist hardliners who have persisted in the failed notion that they could starve Castro out of office by fomenting counter-revolution. Well folks....it didn't work.

And keeping an offshore torture and detention without charges or trial prison camp on the sovereign soil of another nation doesn't look good on the US either. But point taken.

 

[kallipolis]

The testament to the Cuban people is that after 50 years of US oppression, they still have one of the highest literacy rates in the world....have a high standard of health care and have not devolved into a type of corrupt militaristic dictatorship like North Korea.

Noteworthy................................

 

[Benvolio]

You've never been to Cuba have you? Desperate? Not hardly. Their whole world doesn't revolve around the US. Seriously. It doesn't.

And puhhhhlleeeze....don't try to tell me that the embargo was only to stop communism from spreading. It was not. And the US has the bay of pigs and attempted assassination of another country's leader on the record.

The testament to the Cuban people is that after 50 years of US oppression, they still have one of the highest literacy rates in the world....have a high standard of health care and have not devolved into a type of corrupt militaristic dictatorship like North Korea.

I did not say the impeding the spread of communism was the only reason, but the primary one.The US has not oppressed Cuba. We have not chosen to do business with them. If trade with the US is so important to Cuba, they should not have chosen to ally the country with USSR and against the US. The US was friendly to the Castro coup until he announced that he was a communist and was allying himself with USSR.
The people of Cuba have been oppressed by their government, aided and abetted by the likes of Canada. And yes, Cuba is a corrupt military dictatorship.
It is very hard for a people to throw off a communist dictatorship. How will the people of Cuba ever achieve democracy and freedom? How the people of North Korea, how the people of China?

 

[peeonme]

I did not say the impeding the spread of communism was the only reason, but the primary one.The US has not oppressed Cuba. We have not chosen to do business with them. If trade with the US is so important to Cuba, they should not have chosen to ally the country with USSR and against the US. The US was friendly to the Castro coup until he announced that he was a communist and was allying himself with USSR.
The people of Cuba have been oppressed by their government, aided and abetted by the likes of Canada. And yes, Cuba is a corrupt military dictatorship.
It is very hard for a people to throw off a communist dictatorship. How will the people of Cuba ever achieve democracy and freedom? How the people of North Korea, how the people of China?

Truth be told, in my opinion we the USA (speaking collectively) don't give a rats ass about how free these people are.
It's all about money, can money made? Can we exploit them? Use them? Can we get richer?

If a country can't be used to make money for the wealthy, then we wave the flag and cry freedom and go to war. TBH, it stinks.

 

[Benvolio]

I

I did not say the impeding the spread of communism was the only reason, but the primary one.The US has not oppressed Cuba. We have not chosen to do business with them. If trade with the US is so important to Cuba, they should not have chosen to ally the country with USSR and against the US. The US was friendly to the Castro coup until he announced that he was a communist and was allying himself with USSR.
The people of Cuba have been oppressed by their government, aided and abetted by the likes of Canada. And yes, Cuba is a corrupt military dictatorship.
It is very hard for a people to throw off a communist dictatorship. How will the people of Cuba ever achieve democracy and freedom? How the people of North Korea, how the people of China?

Truth be told, in my opinion we the USA (speaking collectively) don't give a rats ass about how free these people are.Americans would have made money tradin with Castro as well.
It's all about money, can money made? Can we exploit them? Use them? Can we get richer?

If a country can't be used to make money for the wealthy, then we wave the flag and cry freedom and go to war. TBH, it stinks.

False. How has our defense of Kosovo made money? Our defense of South Korea, South Vietnam, Taiwan? Granada? Israel?

 

[opinterph]

If you haven't noticed, China is spending part of its huge cash reserves to build and enormous military as is Russia, its ally. Why? I don't think they intend to play nice. Meanwhile we are sharply reducing out military and borrowing out way to currency collapse.

The roughly $600 billion of US military spending (all regular activities of the Department of Defense; war spending; nuclear weapons spending; international military assistance; and other Pentagon-related spending) in the current fiscal year accounts for more than half of all federal discretionary spending. US military spending exceeds that of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, France, United Kingdom, India, and Germany combined.

 

[Brian Smith]

Well, the thing you have to understand about Cuba is that the regime that still holds power there robbed many people of their property, some of whom were merely doctors who had relatively typical luxuries for that, such as a few horses and a beach house. They were hardly paupers, but they did not take part in the corruption of the Batista regime. They were white-collar men and women. Anyway, when such people complained about Castro's followers, they were treated in a very shoddy manner and manhandled very much. The survivors and descendants of that number are still rather annoyed over it. It wasn't so much the politics of Castro's government, but you don't win friends very well by scaring their children storming in with military weapons.

Although I don't agree with the embargo, I think Cuba's political stability is yet to be proved. I only hope that Raul proves a more agreeable statesman than his brother, although I imagine the Castro family is going to have a long way to go before they have won widespread acceptance.

Anyhow, I see the reopening of the embassy as good enough news.

 

[Benvolio]

The roughly $600 billion of US military spending (all regular activities of the Department of Defense; war spending; nuclear weapons spending; international military assistance; and other Pentagon-related spending) in the current fiscal year accounts for more than half of all federal discretionary spending. US military spending exceeds that of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, France, United Kingdom, India, and Germany combined.

Who knows what China and Russia spend?

 

[opinterph]

Who knows what China and Russia spend?

As a percentage of its GDP, China's military spending is arguably decreasing.

 

[thewiz]

Who knows what China and Russia spend?

Well, I presume your Republican friends who have been demanding we spend more and more to "keep up with the Russians and Chinese" based some of their paranoia on some fact? It's quite obvious you throw out links and statistics that have little to do with supporting your opinion or adding to any discussion. In high school and college we were told how the Soviet Union was beating us in every way -- military spending, Sputnik, the economy, education, health -- and we needed to always spend more and more of our budget to "keep up with the Jones" (or Soviets). It turned out it was all smoke and mirrors when the Soviet Union broke up and the China markets were opened.

Again...Google and research can be your friend.

 

[Benvolio]

As a percentage of its GDP, China's military spending is arguably decreasing.

How is that relevant? If its military spending is increasing, that is what we need to worry about. And again, how would you know. They are not likely to tell us the full extent.

 

[thewiz]

How is that relevant? If its military spending is increasing, that is what we need to worry about. And again, how would you know. They are not likely to tell us the full extent.

Wow....ignorance is truly bliss.

 

[bankside]

Cuba, and Cuban citizens, have not suffered from having an open trading relationship with Canada all these decades. If anything, having a few links with a real country has provided a lifeline for the sane people there to make advances that have allowed the country to open up as much as it has.

I don't think you can starve a country into action. Look at North Korea for fuck's sake. Even the Chinese think they're weird, and they're still going.

Speaking of China, it is a complete fantasy to think you could ever isolate a country like that anyway. It's huge. It's a member of the security council!

Just one country, bigger than Europe and North America put together, and we're supposed to "Cut them off??!!??" What does that even mean to "cut them off..." Pfff.

If Europe and North America didn't even exist it would make it that much easier for the Chinese government to pretend things there are normal. But the more we deal with them, the less they can keep up that illusion. People know. If we tried to ignore China, China could ignore us, to the detriment of its people.

 

[Brian Smith]

Well, that is why I am so immensely relieved about Hassan Rouhani's successes in winning the confidence of our own government. I honestly and earnestly think that, if he can succeed in stabilizing Iran's relationships with external parties, he will be worthy of a Nobel. I honestly think that policies geared toward estrangement are simply nutty.

What are opinions on Mariela? She's a friend to Cuba's LGBT community, which is a positive, but are there fair criticisms of her?

 

[bankside]

What are opinions on Mariela? She's a friend to Cuba's LGBT community, which is a positive, but are there fair criticisms of her?

F.W. de Klerk won a nobel prize and the work he did was positive for millions of South Africans, but he still had to give over the reins of power to a new generation unbeholden to the old régime. She can step aside too in a few years.

 

[Benvolio]

If Canada helped Castro stay in power, it hurt the people.

 

[peeonme]

I

False. How has our defense of Kosovo made money? Our defense of South Korea, South Vietnam, Taiwan? Granada? Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex
There are corporations that make huge dollars from war, be it a legitimate one or a manufactured war such as Iraq.

 

[bankside]

If Canada helped Castro stay in power, it hurt the people.

Exactly my point! North Korea shows that no matter how much a state may be shunned and alienated, it's leadership can maintain a ruthless grip. The point of trade with Cubans is not to sustain the Castro régime, but the Cubans, so they can be strong enough and informed enough and wealthy enough to make a change. They need that contact. They need that lifeline to the outside world to make it happen.

 

[Brian Smith]

If Canada helped Castro stay in power, it hurt the people.

Only a conservative would think that starving people to death is somehow a way of helping them.

This is how conservatives think. Let's stop fucking around, and let's acknowledge that conservatives are evil.