Cuba, what about trade?

[rareboy]

Where's this big money you keep talking about?

The US still has a trade embargo.

The Castro regime is actually no more brutal than the post 911 American regimes have prove to be...although to their credit...they haven't been exporting wars of adventure and killing tens of thousands of innocents in places like...oh say...Iraq.

Face it Benvolio. The US no longer has any moral or political high ground now.

Its oligarchical, corrupt and corporatist system of governance, the systemic and institutionalized racism, the out of control gun violence, the staggering mass incarcerations, the torture camps...all of these things have lost the US the right to point fingers at anyone.

Thank Christ, his Dad and his Mom that Obama is in the White House and can maybe do something to mitigate the disastrous course of action that Bush /Halliburton charted.

 

[Benvolio]

Iu

Where's this big money you keep talking about?

The US still has a trade embargo.

The Castro regime is actually no more brutal than the post 911 American regimes have prove to be...although to their credit...they haven't been exporting wars of adventure and killing tens of thousands of innocents in places like...oh say...Iraq.

Face it Benvolio. The US no longer has any moral or political high ground now.

Its oligarchical, corrupt and corporatist system of governance, the systemic and institutionalized racism, the out of control gun violence, the staggering mass incarcerations, the torture camps...all of these things have lost the US the right to point fingers at anyone.
The
Thank Christ, his Dad and his Mom that Obama is in the White House and can maybe do something to mitigate the disastrous course of action that Bush /Halliburton charted.

None of that garbage is relevant to the question of ending the embargo. We should not help the Castros retain their You seem to be saying we should help the Castros sujugate the people of Cuba because America is bad.

 

[thewiz]

What you fail to realize is the 50 year methodology for dealing with countries like Cuba was a failure. It has resulted in nothing except to leave the United States as the last man out (again) in dealing with foreign countries.

While the Castros have faults, I can kind of see why they might harbor some resentment towards the United States that overthrew one of their leaders and then attempted to kill them over the years. Not exactly a good neighbor policy.

As for another generation -- both Fidel and Raul are in their 80's; they'll be dead in a few years. We probably should learn to work with the next generation of leadership because it will be the one that actually engages under this new policy. Hell, even the pope agrees with Obama and the Dems on this one (actually two popes -- JP II and Francis).

 

[bankside]

US foreign policy gave Castro the pretext to seize and maintain power. It makes no sense to think that an embargo would work when it has never worked to date, and when even other measures (propaganda; assassination attempts) failed to yield results. All of that made Castro seem relevant and necessary, and he spins it masterfully. Without inept external policies to galvanize their grip on power, the régime will fail to become a dynasty and will be on the way out before Hillary is.

 

[TX-Beau]

US foreign policy gave Castro the pretext to seize and maintain power. It makes no sense to think that an embargo would work when it has never worked to date, and when even other measures (propaganda; assassination attempts) failed to yield results. All of that made Castro seem relevant and necessary, and he spins it masterfully. Without inept external policies to galvanize their grip on power, the régime will fail to become a dynasty and will be on the way out before Hillary is.

Castro came to US for help first - we supported Batista.

 

[TX-Beau]

'Pubs have kittens over Castro mostly because they're the party of old and obsolete.

 

[thewiz]

It is interesting that they want to rely on an embargo and isolation for Cuba (that hasn't worked in 50 years) but now want to bomb Iran. Seems a little conflicting.

 

[Benvolio]

What you fail to realize is that the embargo was not primarily intended to bring down the regime. The primary purpose was to prevent soviet-allied communism from spreading in the Western Hemisphere. The danger was that with business from the US combined with subsidies from the USSR, communism would appear to other countries, particularly the dictatorships, to be a attractive deal. By playing the US and USSR against each other they would be able to extort benefits, or succumb to communist dictatorships.
Worse, it was feared that the USSR and Cuba would send military forces to subvert other regimes in the area. This, of course, did happen. Forces were sent by Cuba to overturn the elected government of Granada. Forces were sent to Nicaragua, Bolivia (remember Che died there) and others. Cuba sent an army to Angola for over a decade. It had a school on the Isle of Pines for subversives.
And, you are wrong. The strategy worked. No other country in the hemisphere went communist until out worst president, Carter, allowed it to happen in Nicaragua. And, the embargo has helped other democracies in the hemisphere as tourists and trade have gone to the Bahamas, Jamaica, Caymans which otherwise would have gone to Cuba.
All the while, Canada by its support, helped Castro to stay in power as one of the most oppressive regimes ever in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba's recent approach to the US was made out of desperation, suggesting that the people of Cuba might finally be able to achieve their freedom. Castro will reap enormous financial profits at the expense of other, friendly, countries. Obama's misguided support for the regime is a grievous mistake.

Giving money to Castro through trade will make it difficult for the people of Cuba to achieve their freedom. Totalitarian dictatorships have proven very difficult for the people to end. Economic failure would have been their best bet. But Obama has come to rescue of his fellow Marxist, and the people will be enslaved for another generation at least.

 

[rareboy]

Oh Bullshit.

And so your idea of doing good for the 'people' is to starve them into submission.

Give me a fucking break.

The way your mind works is just baffling.

As I noted. You've never been to Cuba. It is apparent that you know nothing of the people, their culture or even their political structure.

You are just another backwoods American reactionary who can't ever admit when a policy has failed or even begin to imagine that in the same way that engagement has opened up China in ways that were unthinkable under the Maoist regime, that engagement with the people and the leaders of Cuba may lead to a peaceful and productive relationship instead of the sterile and unproductive pissing match the US finds itself wasting time and effort on for decades.

 

[Benvolio]

Uu

Oh Bullshit.

And so your idea of doing good for the 'people' is to starve them into submission.

Give me a fucking break.

The way your mind works is just baffling.

As I noted. You've never been to Cuba. It is apparent that you know nothing of the people, their culture or even their political structure.

You are just another backwoods American reactionary who can't ever admit when a policy has failed or even begin to imagine that in the same way that engagement has opened up China in ways that were unthinkable under the Maoist regime, that engagement with the people and the leaders of Cuba may lead to a peaceful and productive relationship instead of the sterile and unproductive pissing match the US finds itself wasting time and effort on for decades.

So now you claim the people of Cuba are starving. I think you are lying.

 

[Sausy]

The Cuban government seems to be currently cracking down on human rights instead of using the reopening of relations to re-evaluate. While I support lifting of the embargo, which in a post Soviet Union world makes no sense to continue to implement, we should still make it clear to those in power that we don't support and won't enable Cuban oppression in the process. And of course I know we can't lecture too much, with our own failures especially in minority communities... but still standing with those who support basic human rights in Cuba, and are being hounded by the government for that, is the least we should do. Standing for the people of Cuba doesn't mean we should continue to have a policy which is only causing undo suffering to the people, not the government which still survives and thrives despite the 50+ years of the embargo and dissolution of diplomatic relations. While we re-establish relations and end the embargo, we have to remember that the Cuban people still aren't free, and now with full relationship restored we can use our voice to help bring down another cold war relic... the Castro dictatorship, through peaceful means. There was an Arab spring against authoritarian governments and corruption... let's help support those who would bring forth a Cuban spring.

 

[kallipolis]

Since Fidel retired due to ill health, his brother Raul has changed the rules of the game, realizing that he will also have to retire very soon...with the Communist Party also coming to terms with the end of financial support from the former Soviet Union.

Cuba has become a popular tourist destination for Europeans who pay in foreign currency for their hotel, meals, drinks, boys, and girls...there's big money to be made serving the sexual needs of European gays....

Europe has never had the same hostile obsessiveness with Cuba that has until recently gripped the United States.

 

[rareboy]

^ I have to laugh when Americans think that somehow they have quarantined Cuba because of their own snit and embargo up until now.

For Europeans and Canadians who have been travelling to Cuba and meeting the Cuban people for the last 4 decades....the failure of the American reactionaries like Benvolio and his fellow travellers to understand the country or the people and their society is hilarious...and also a little sad.



In many ways, the return of hordes of US travellers to Cuba only promises to ruin yet another Caribbean vacation destination. sigh.
And God help them from having the US vultures bankrupt them like Puerto Rico.

It makes me think we should get to Havana before it is too late.

- - - Updated - - -

Uu
So now you claim the people of Cuba are starving. I think you are lying.

Don't be foolish. Read the post above.

You know nothing of Cuba.

 

[Kulindahr]

When I lived in Miami, I knew three pastors (two Lutheran, one Episcopal) who traveled to Cuba regularly. One of the things they all agreed on, despite having congregations full of Cuban 'exiles' who hated Fidel with every breath, was that the biggest thing supporting the Castro regime was having the U.S. to hate. To the limits allowed, they took gifts to relatives of church members, and again agreed that those Cubans who had good relations with people in the U.S. understood just how much damage Castro had done to Cuba. So it was evident that, despite the theories, U.S. policy was in fact helping Castro stay in power.

Though another thing that kept him in power was the fact that he had indeed improved things in Cuba in many ways, and Cubans were proud of that. And these three pastors had found that denigrating everything Castro had done only made Cubans defend him, because it was indisputable that some good had been accomplished.

So the way forward is to allow contact with Americans, so Cubans can better see what Castro has kept them from, but at the same time acknowledging the good things he got done. An honest assessment rather than a blanket condemnation, since the Cubans are proud of the good things accomplished, shows respect for the Cuban people and makes them more willing to listen.

As a last item, there is something we in the U.S. could learn from Cuba: they learned to regard themselves as a people, standing together against problems and dangers, and believe that together they are able to handle anything. In the U.S., the great tendency is the attitude of "Fuck my neighbor", to grab for one's own self and let others fall by the wayside without a qualm; a good dose of the Cuban sense of solidarity would benefit us a great deal.

 

[Benvolio]

No, kulindahr, we once had solidarity. Now the democrat goal is diversity, multiculturalism, and Obama's hodgepodge of cultures.

 

[kallipolis]

No, kulindahr, we once had solidarity. Now the democrat goal is diversity, multiculturalism, and Obama's hodgepodge of cultures.

The Civil War 1861/1865 suggests otherwise.

 

[bankside]

No, kulindahr, we once had solidarity. Now the democrat goal is diversity, multiculturalism, and Obama's hodgepodge of cultures.

By solidarity you mean groupthink.

Freedom of thought (within the limits carefully imposed by the Supreme Republikan Presidium, of course.)

 

[Benvolio]

The Civil War 1861/1865 suggests otherwise.

Even so, both sides invoked the Declaration of Independence, Washington and the founding fathers as support for their positions.When the Confederate government was formed, the started with the US Constitution and made few changes. Lee was asked to assume command of the union forces. He opposed the war but could not go against Virginia. Jefferson Davis had been the US Secretary of War. The US and Confederates had a broad consensus on almost everything except slavery. Both sides were predominately British protestants in ancestry and culture.
As late as 1960 the US had a broad consensus on most issues. It began to unravel with the counter culture movement of the 60s, and in 1968, the democrats, realizing that minorities vote democrat, altered the immigration system, eliminating the quota preference for northern Europeans.

 

[kallipolis]

The sixties just about everywhere heralded a much more liberated atmosphere where due deference was ditched. Here in Greece the sudden emergence of individualistic thinking led to a counter reaction with a military dictatorship assuming political power to reverse the rise of "communism."

In the case of the United States, the unpopularity of the Vietnam War may well have been a major factor in increasing divisiveness.

My impression is that Latino immigrants, in the United States are much more conservative, than their critics give them credit for.

 

[Benvolio]

Latinos are often socially conservative, but the idea of taxing, taxing, taxing the rich to give freebies to the poor immigrants is appealing to them. So they strongly vote democrat and were often credited with swinging the 2012 election to Obama. So Obama has made massive immigration and amnesty of illegals his obsession, and the democrats strongly oppose requiring voters to show identification.