Dharun Ravi Indicted in Tyler Clementi Suicide

[JB3]

realistically, though, if Tyler hadn't killed himself and this wasn't a national story, (rightly or wrongly) it probably never would have elevated beyond dorm hall drama (and maybe Ravi getting expelled)

I'm not convinced. The same law he was charged with violating could have also been applied in your alternate situation.

 

[glo-unit]

^ he was given the sentence clearly because Tyler died

He hasn't even been sentenced yet, he COULD get up to 10 years, I doubt he will.

 

[chance1]

^ sorry - that's what i meant

i just think the parameters are over the top

and an over reaction

because this is a national story

and he did die

 

[JB3]

it absolutely could have been... I just don't think it would have been.

without a body in the morgue, I'm sure the residence staff (and any local law enforcement that got involved) would have been a lot more likely to push all parties involved to settle matters within the college (probably via Ravi forced to move dorms and maybe some on-campus community service/sensitivity classes)

It depends. I don't think the situation would be different.

 

[Kulindahr]

But let me ask everyone -- let's say that Tyler Clementi DIDN'T commit suicide. Let's say that Tyler Clementi changed his mind at the last minute & chose NOT to jump off the bridge, and went back to Rutgers.

Right here is where your tale first goes astray. The likelihood of someone who just backed off from suicide going right back to where he'd been abused enough to get that far is small. He would have sought some refuge.

What would have most likely happened?

The Resident Assistant (RA) of the dorm would have seen Tyler Clementi's request for a room change (which was filed prior to his suicide). There would have been some kind of resolution. Most likely Tyler Clementi or Dharun Ravi would have moved to a new dorm room. If the whole "webcam spying" from Dharun Ravi was discovered, Dharun Ravi would have received a stern warning from Rutgers. At most he may have even been expelled from the college for personal misconduct (but with no criminal charges).

Really? The RA wasn't paying much attention to him before -- why would he suddenly change that?

But it wouldn't have ever reached a criminal courtroom, with the proceedings being followed by the national media.

Perhaps.

But Tyler might have gone to the school clinic or whatever they had. He might have told his story, and the doc or counselor would have realized that this was incredibly serious. I'm not sure of state law there, but there's a good chance the counselor would have been required to report such extreme abuse to authorities.

So the cops would have shown up, charges would have been filed.....

In some ways, the Tyler Clementi case became the cause celebre of ALL episodes of gay bullying in America's schools. Certainly, there have been at least 10 to 15 LGBT youth (almost all of whom are young gay men) who committed suicide in the last couple years, with national coverage of the aftermath.

But there haven't been any other legal trials with the perpetrators being prosecuted & convicted of bullying gay students.

Part of the problem is that there is no clear villain when it comes to bullying of LGBT teens & adults. Who is directly to blame, who can be legally prosecuted? Is it a particular student? Is it the gay person's family? Is it a school teacher or the school administration? Is it American culture as a whole? The problem with bullying against LGBT teens & adults, is that the "villain" is amorphous and abstract....

The powerbrokers in the LGBT community (from head of HRC, to Get Equal, to the Trevor Project to Dan Savage & Michael Signorile) were furious about lack of a concrete "villain" or person directly to blame in ALL of the other cases of bullying against gay youth.

BUT in Tyler Clementi's situation, there WAS a clear person to blame (at least for the webcam spying). And that was Dharun Ravi.

Somebody's "head had to roll"............and that head belonged to Dharun Ravi.

As keeps being said -- try reading the charges, and the reasons.

 

[JB3]

we'll never know... but it seems unlikely to me that this was the first/only time one college student has used a webcam to spy on his roommate. it's just the one that made the national news.

It wasn't just the spying. It was the spying with the intent to humiliate him because he was gay. Which was actually the most serious charge brought against him.

 

[Just_Believe18]

I disagree - justice has not been served

This kid has been made an example of - for what end I don't know

He clearly did something very wrong - but he did not cause the death of Tyler Clementi

and now there are two victims - Tyler and Dharun

Tyler's own mom did not support his sexual orientation - should she be held accountable in a court of law?

Tyler was obviously a troubled young man and to put all of the blame on Dharun's actions is just not reasonable

I just don't see how this verdict is just


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sunil-adam/dharun-ravi-case_b_1355504.html

Way to defend a homophobe, chance1.

I was following the thread when Tyler first posted for help. We gave him the best advice we could. He was clearly disturbed and upset about what Ravi was doing to him. This asshole was in the beginning stages of tormenting Tyler. It just kills me inside Tyler didn't give us any warning. I wish he would have said something, anything, to let us know he was going to jump off the GW bridge. The moment I heard the news, I went immediately back to the forum and asked if it was Tyler.. and it was. I am so angry by what homophobia does every day to young gays and lesbians. Bullying can drive someone to suicide. You may disagree with the responsibility of death, but the reality is Tyler is still dead, and he wouldn't have died if Ravi would not have been the demented pervert trying to publicly film Tyler having sex with another guy.

You are so off the wall if you want to make a comparison of Tyler's mother to blame with Ravi. She wasn't trying to film him with another guy. To even think that's an acceptable form of logic is ludicrous. Don't apologize for evil.

 

[Kulindahr]

I sense a gulf between those of us who were communicating with him and those who weren't.

I've had enough friends and acquaintances, including students, lost through suicide that my gut reaction is that Ravi should get the maximum possible sentence for each count and serve them consecutively. But that isn't justice, and I have to remind myself of that. OTOH, I've know people who went to prison, having never had anything to do with the justice system before, and know what an infinite horror it is for even a months, let alone a year. From that side -- also emotional -- I wish Ravi wouldn't have to see the inside of a prison at all, but could serve the entire sentence on probation with some monthly community service, and be allowed to get his degree -- though at a different school.

I think I said before that were I the judge, I'd put him on that ten years of probation. And I think I still would, but make him report to jail for six weeks every summer between school years. And to remind him of his status, I'd make him wear one of those electronic anklets that track his every move. And for another kind of justice (there's a term for it I can't recall), I'd put a webcam in his room, on remote control, and he'd never know if he was being watched. On top of that, I'd require him to attend "sensitivity" classes twice a year, over and over, making it sink in.

The one thing I wouldn't do is send him to prison. Unless he was kept constantly in solitary, for protection, it would become a death sentence: he's not white, so he'd get no protection from white gangs; he's not black, so he'd get no protection from black gangs -- and he's young and cute, so he'd end up passed around the prison as a sex toy, and either die of a disease or get killed in some argument over who could have him.
Besides that, his only hope there would be to become a worse homophobe than now, not just an unintentional harmer of gays, but an active one, seeking ways to find and harm us. Because that would offer him a slim chance for "fame", a small chance at an independent existence -- if he said, "Yeah, I would have killed him if I could, but it worked out anyway, huh?"
Prison is just a school to make the bad into real evil.

But on the outside, constantly tracked, constantly supervised, and required to change his attitude, he would be safe, he wouldn't be turned more evil, and he just might come to understand what he did.


Though maybe not -- someone with sense would have taken the initial offer.

 

[chrisrobin]

Anecdote alert:

One of my classmates in 7th grade decided to trip me while dancing at a class party. Her "intentions" were to "make me look silly." I ended up with a foot fracture and needed a walking cast for six weeks and probably another six for rehab. I didn't find it terribly amusing. If my parents had been litigious, the young lady's parents would have been compelled to underwrite my college expenses, at least.

Please Google: The Law of Unintended Consequences

Davy Crockett once said, "Be sure you're right, and then go ahead." I don't think Mr. Ravi bothered to consider this. What a shame.

There may come a time when being gay will not carry the social stigma that it has now. I sure hope so!

 

[chrisrobin]

Tyler's own mom did not support his sexual orientation - should she be held accountable in a court of law?

No. But in the court of public opinion... I'm sure a day won't go by when she doesn't think that her non-supportive attitude played at least a minor role in Tyler's death, and that's too bad.

Imaginary "coming out" dialogue: Mother says, "why didn't you tell me?" The son might say, "because I didn't want to hurt you." The mother explains, "I already knew." The son replies, "how could you possibly have known?" The mother exclaims, "because you're my son." Nobody ever said that practicing unconditional love is easy.

 

[Ninja108]

Let me state this..Tyler had other issues as well,his parents not being accepting of him being one of them. All the webcam incident simple did was push them over the top.
But for those saying Dharun is a victim,no he isn't. There was a simple way for him to avoid what happened,and that was not to do it in the first place.
Instead he chose to do it because he didn't want a gay person as a roommate. Now's he reaping what he sowed.

 

[chance1]

5 ^ to JustBelieve

Not fair
I'm not "defending" the boy
What he did was mean - terrible
The judgement wildly excessive and IMO obviously fueled by media coverage

I don't know that he was a "homophobe" either

The punishment does not fit the "crime" which IMO was a fraternity like prank gone very bad

If it was me he'd have to do gay related community service for a VERY long time

Ruining his life is not the answer

And it's not justice

But I completely understand the rage directed at him

 

[sixthson]

There can be little doubt that the goal was to humiliate and degrade Tyler. For this, Ravi will have to pay, and rightly so. As I said in another thread on this topic, the focus needs to be on Tyler and other kids like him. What do we have to do to make them strong and not feel like suicide is their only way out?

Is this a case of bullying? Probably so. Since the issue of unaccepting parents has come up, I can't help but feel that Ravi is not the only guilty person here. Did Tyler, knowing that his parents would not approve, begin the downward spiral long before meeting Ravi? Had Tyler known he had the unconditional love and acceptance of his parents, I think this would have helped to make him strong. Instead, they weakened him and made him vulnerable to assholes like Ravi. This does not, for an instant, lessen Ravi's reponsibility in this.

I apologize if this if off topic, but it reminds me of our responsibility to each others and to always be there for others in whatever way we can.

I can't help but wonder how many other Tylers have passed through JUB over the years. Their lives have ended at their own hands, but only those nearest them know about it.
Maybe some good can come from all this publicity.

 

[Kulindahr]

But for those saying Dharun is a victim,no he isn't. There was a simple way for him to avoid what happened,and that was not to do it in the first place.
Instead he chose to do it because he didn't want a gay person as a roommate. Now's he reaping what he sowed.

Yeah -- he may soon be getting some VERY non-gay roommates.

 

[JB3]

5 ^ to JustBelieve

Not fair
I'm not "defending" the boy
What he did was mean - terrible
The judgement wildly excessive and IMO obviously fueled by media coverage

I don't know that he was a "homophobe" either

The punishment does not fit the "crime" which IMO was a fraternity like prank gone very bad

If it was me he'd have to do gay related community service for a VERY long time

Ruining his life is not the answer

And it's not justice

But I completely understand the rage directed at him

You just don't get it. He didn't film it as a 'fraternity prank' or any such nonsense. He filmed it because Tyler was gay and because he wanted to humiliate him. THAT is why your defense of Ravi rings so false and is so wrong.

 

[glo-unit]

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/02/06/120206fa_fact_parker

Here is a link to a good article about the case that is worth reading. It would probably give most posters here more info about the this entire incident.

 

[backpacker]

I'm one of those who tried to help Tyler via his JUB post. I watched all the trial coverage on TruTV. The only surprise for me was the conviction on the bias charges. I thought they could go either way. The New Jersey law is poorly worded and led to debate between the lawyers and judge as to the intent of the law and how the jury should be instructed. I think there is a good chance that the bias convictions will be overturned on appeal based on the unclear law.

Let's make something clear, Dharun did just broadcast and attempt to broadcast Tyler with a guy. He changed evidence, destroyed evidence, lied to the police and attempted to tamper with a witness. I believe Dharun knew what he did was illegal and that's why he tried to cover it up.

A correction regarding the potential sentence. He could get as much as 65.5 years if the sentences run consecutive. Nobody thinks that would happen, but it does illustrate how seriousness of the charges and that he was convicted of 15 felonies. Dharun had the opportunity to take a sweetheart plea deal and avoid jail time. He decided to roll the dice and lost. As a matter of public policy, they don't give those convicted through a trial the same sentence as they could have gotten in the plea deal. What defendant would take a plea deal if there was nothing to be gained? Dharun also re-victimized MB by forcing him to testify in court, which has now outed him to his family (they recognized him when he testified). Dharun made Tyler's family deal with the stress and emotions of a trial. Dharun's body language during the trial showed that he still didn't get the seriousness of what he did. Dharun needs to spend some time in prison to learn his lesson.

Additionally the second degree charges carry a presumption of prison time in New Jersey (5 to 10 years). The experts say that 99% of the time a conviction on second degree charges means prison time. Given that Dhuran was convicted of 15 felonies, two of which are second degree, it's highly unlikely the the judge would find good cause to disregard the presumption. Given that Dharun has no criminal history, these were non-violent crimes and Tyler's family had previously said they don't want jail time, I suspect the judge will go toward the low end of the guidelines and have concurrent sentences. That means I would expect a sentence of 5 years, which would mean he would spend a little over 4 years in prison.

Dharun stands a good chance of being deported at the completion of his sentence. The felonies he was convicted of certainly fall within the type of felonies they deport people for. His best chance of staying in the U.S. is probably seeking a hardship request based on him growing up in the U.S. and not having strong ties to India.

Had Tyler not committed suicide, I don't think charges would have been so aggressively pursued. The reality is that Tyler did commit suicide and Dharun's actions certainly played a roll in that suicide. It's very common in the justice system that the results of the crime play a factor in determining the type and zealousness of the prosecution. For example, if someone is driving down the street and runs a red light in front of a cop. Chances are the person would get a ticket, pay a fine and not think too much more about it. Now change the facts slightly. The person runs a red, a car swerves to avoid the car running the light, drives onto the sidewalk and kills a bystander. Under those circumstances the driver who ran the red light would probably be charged with manslaughter. Drunk driving is another example of how the outcome determines the charges. When one chooses to commit a crime, they take the risk of being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I personally think Dharun was trying to be "that guy" in his dorm. Trying to be a big man on campus has certainly altered his life forever. If he is allowed to stay in the country, I would expect his dad will give him a job. I doubt he would be too successful in finding employment elsewhere. Going back to India would probably give him a good shot at a normal life. I would imagine there is a big market for U.S. educated employees in India.

 

[Rolyo85]

However, to say that he meant for Tyler to kill himself (as someone did on this page) borders on vicious. I know what the law says, but Ravi WAS still a kid when he did that. I'm fairly certain he either has grown up pretty quickly now, or will in the immediate future, but even though he probably acted out of bigotry and homophobia, I can't help but feel sorry for him as well.

I put the blame on him, but ask yourselves - how much of your response has to do with justice, and how much with desire for vengeance. And don't get me wrong - I have that too. But that's not how we're going to make a point. We are not the strong majority that could make cruel examples out of people, and a sentence that seems disproportionally harsh will only work against us... I am not saying slap him on the wrist, but I also don't think the kind should rot in prison until he's 30 or even older...

 

[Rolyo85]

I could see myself going through the same steps that he did though. Obviously not in a similar situation, but anyone who claims they never did something blatantly wrong without giving it much thought, then realized how much trouble it could get them in and tried to cover their tracks, is either lying, or very noble and pure.

Again, I do not want to play Ravi's advocate. I despise what he did, and my heart aches for Tyler. BUT to say he wanted to HURT him, and acted with the intent to cause direct harm rings false to me. I just can't help but feel that I could put myself in Ravi's shoes if not in motives and reasons, then in terms of making a chain of fucked up choices that you seriously misjudge.

 

[Rolyo85]

Harm? Harm how? Other than make fun of him with his friends - fun, which, I might add, I am not sure he ever intended Tyler to know about.

Seriously, don't look at it from the outside, try to put yourself in the kid's head. The malicious intent you are talking about could come from either deep extremist convictions, or personal vendetta. Neither was present.