Did anyone see Hardball tonight?

[Runewell]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzCoPh8DZ7M[/ame]

All I have to say is Mrs. Abram got completely owned. *yikes* Another uninformed ignoramus bites the dust...The concern for our country is greatly appreciated, but seriously, try to know what you're talking about a just a little.

 

[opinterph]

What point does your post represent as a matter of interest for discussion?

Who are the parties involved? What is the background? What is the significance of the video and how does it relate to current events & politics?

Please do not use the forum as a news ticker. It is reasonable to assume that members have access to their own news sources.

 

[Runewell]

The guest on Hardball, Katy Abram, was one of the attendees of Senator Arlen Specter's town hall meeting at the Penn State Conference Center. The big issue was health care, and the direction it's taking in the country. Mrs. Abram was among a large group of people who were angry and put-out over the situation, and she spoke up pretty loudly about it, with full crowd support. She went on to Hardball tonight to explain what beliefs she had, what caused her to speak up after 35 years of "not caring about politics". After seeing this clip though, it's pretty apparent that she doesn't know anything.

This post could start a debate over the direction of health care (as so many others in this section of the forums have) but I think this clip is more of an example of how angry people can get with little correct information to back it up. It can be dangerous, but I mostly found it embarrassing.

I hope that was enough context for those wondering.

 

[Runewell]

Well as I said on my thread I started earlier this evening on this topic, this Katy Abrams is a 9/12 - Glenn Beck lover. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.

http://www.meetup.com/WeSurroundThemGathering/members/3510141/

lol, I was hoping I wasn't posting this after someone else, but at least I wasn't the only one who thought it should be seen. I give you first credit

 

[JB3]

The founders of the Constitution didn't envision the abolition of slavery either did they?

Not to hijack the thread, but the founders shared an unequivocal contempt of slavery. (with the exception of Jefferson, to some extent) The only reason they didn't confront it when they wrote the constitution was because they were more concerned about the formation of the country, which would not have happened if slavery was abolished in the document. Most, if not all, of the founders wrote extensively on the subject of slavery, and all regretted not abolishing it sooner. However, the decision to allow it to continue was a purely pragmatic one; the founders knew that the constitution would not have been ratified had anti-slavery language been included in the document, and they also knew that an immediate end to slavery would have crippled the fledgling US economy. (at that point in time, the US economy was heavily dependent on slavery economically)

 

[White Eagle]

No worries, it's not your fault.

It just goes to show you that this whackadoodle fringe that claim they are angry, really have no idea what they are talking about. They sup at the pig trough of Drugs Limbaugh, Bill O'theClown, and Lou Dubious, and just parrot whatever they've been told. They have no critical reasoning skills or curious about the truth.

She's the latest Joe the Plumber™ of the right.

The sad part of this I think is the people, with her knowledge of what is going on, aren't prone to watch Hardball. Even stories that come out of it won't even get into the main media. It was so embarrassing for her that I don't think any reporter will do it.
Boy I would have loved for Matthews to be the inquirer of that show. She would have left in tears.

 

[NickCole]

The guest on Hardball, Katy Abram, was one of the attendees of Senator Arlen Specter's town hall meeting at the Penn State Conference Center. The big issue was health care, and the direction it's taking in the country. Mrs. Abram was among a large group of people who were angry and put-out over the situation, and she spoke up pretty loudly about it, with full crowd support. She went on to Hardball tonight to explain what beliefs she had, what caused her to speak up after 35 years of "not caring about politics". After seeing this clip though, it's pretty apparent that she doesn't know anything.

You are wong and you are disrespectful.

She does know something. In fact she knows a lot.

She knows, for starters, that Washington is spending in huge deficits that's going to have to be paid for and that she and her friends and family will be paying for it. She's concerned about that and it's a legitimate concern that's not being addressed forthrightly and honestly.

If Obama Democrats would address what she and others like her are actually saying, which is not unreasonable even if it has some holes of ignorance in it, we might actually be a more unified nation and might be able to pass a great health care reform.

But this disrespect and dismissiveness, rolled often in ridicule, is the way Obama Democrats have been all along. And that puts a lie to the Hope and Change meme. There's no hope in that kind of destructiveness within a society.

 

[NickCole]

The sad part of this I think is the people, with her knowledge of what is going on, aren't prone to watch Hardball. Even stories that come out of it won't even get into the main media. It was so embarrassing for her that I don't think any reporter will do it.
Boy I would have loved for Matthews to be the inquirer of that show. She would have left in tears.

And the value of that would be what?

It seems Obama supporters are less interested in passing a gold standard health care reform (or anything else) and more interested in revenge and hurtfulness.

Yes We Can.

 

[NickCole]

Well as I said on my thread I started earlier this evening on this topic, this Katy Abrams is a 9/12 - Glenn Beck lover. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.

http://www.meetup.com/WeSurroundThemGathering/members/3510141/

The nasty comments people have left for her at that site, which are similar to many comments made by Obama supporters all along, only cause hurt and anger and division.

What is that supposed to accomplish?

Katy Abram didn't say anything nasty or even unkind during that interview. Really have to wonder why so many Obama supporters are gratuitously mean spirited and hurtful, and what they hope to gain by it.

We have such possibilities. We really could set our own nation in a healthier and more prosperous direction. But we won't do it as long as the people in power, whether it's Bush & Co and his supporters or ObamaCo and his, use their position to hurt rather than help.

Even I am disappointed in the depths of ugliness I'm seeing from those who "won" last November. Those blue skies our Alfie was so delighted to see all around sure have turned dark.

 

[palemale]

President Obama is responsible for so many bad things, and now he's gone and made poor Katy Abrams make a fool of herself on national TV. I think he also responsible for making mean people kick cats.

 

[NickCole]

President Obama is responsible for so many bad things, and now he's gone and made poor Katy Abrams make a fool of herself on national TV. I think he also responsible for making mean people kick cats.

Katy Abrams didn't make a fool of herself.

She went on a show where she knew her interviewer would disagree with her and would be prepared with knowledge and superior skill at arguing his position. That took courage and good for her.

She was respectful and she was forthright about presenting her opinion. (And she was right --O'Donnell was wrong-- that she'd heard Obama say he supported single-payer.)

She was not armed with information as O'Donnell was, like knowing we looked to Bismarck's social insurance program when modeling our own Social Security, but she made her point well enough. I know people like Katy Abram, my sister in law and brother in law are like her, and I bet most Americans know people like that. They're not stupid and even if they aren't polished in presenting their viewpoints, many of us don't agree that they make fools of themselves in their effort to be heard.

 

[NickCole]

She didn't have any solid answers to good questions.

If you mean about Medicare and Social Security being socialist programs, and effective, I agree.

But we see it differently. Obama supporters apparently see it as her looking foolish. I see it as an opportunity to explain to her how health care reform will be good for her, her family, her friends and the country just as Medicare and SS have been. But going after her with ridicule and personal insults is not going to bring about better health care reform. All it'll do is widen divisions, deepen resentment and give people who have a taste for revenge and cruelty a feel-good moment.

A bad choice if you ask me. I certainly wouldn't have if I were her. The poster image of the typical health care reform opponents embarrassed herself in front of millions of viewers.

People who agree with her don't agree she embarrassed herself, they think she acquitted herself very well. That's what they're saying all over the Internet. And even some who don't agree with her, like me, think she did fine, made her point, kept it about the issue and not personal insults, and was respectful.

Ok. You got to pick one NickCole, because it doesn't work both ways.

Either what Obama has said in the past counts or it doesn't. If it does, that also means he supports gay marriage. If it doesn't, he doesn't support a single payer health care system.

Darn right it counts. It counts in showing how untrustworthy Obama's words are.

In both cases Obama said very clearly he supported single-payer and supported gay marriage, and then when those positions were not politically expedient for him he did a 180 and said very clearly he does not support gay marriage and does not support single-payer. He can do that because he is unprincipled and has zero integrity.

Don't encourage ordinary people to make appearances where they will be grilled without mercy, they will only be pan-fried to look like an idiot. I didn't see any good reasons from her why we shouldn't keep socialist elements in our society that work. Medicare is a good example of a working socialist health care plan that is also a single payer system. Nobody is forced into it. The gloom and doom prophecies of a socialist state that Reagan warned about have not manifested.

Being wrong, even being unable to effectively defend her position, does not make her look like an idiot.

And it's really sad that we've got to the point in this nation that someone as intelligent and educated as you dismisses her that way.

She's a citizen who's married, raising children, paying taxes and contributing to our society as most Americans do, she's reasonably articulate and she cares enough about our nation and our future to put herself in the line of fire this way. Saying this ordinary American looked like an idiot next to O'Donnell with his face-lift surgery and dyed hair and condescension and pretentious knowledge of Bismarck's social insurance program is just weird IMO.

 

[NickCole]

Read what I actually said please: "they will only be pan-fried to look like an idiot "

I read what you actually wrote and respected it with my response: "does not make her look like an idiot"

Everything I said in the entire post was in defense of her intelligence and a criticism of the interviewer about they way he made her appear.

You think this is a defense of her intelligence: "Don't encourage ordinary people to make appearances where they will be grilled without mercy, they will only be pan-fried to look like an idiot." ??

I'm glad you not moved to defend my intelligence!

I do criticize her for not thinking twice about appearing on hard ball. They put words in your mouth.

How do you know she didn't think twice about it?

I say she has nothing to fear. I think those fears she does have will wane after some time, like the conservative criticism did after Johnson signed onto Medicare in 1965.

In the long run her fear, anybody's fear about health care reform, is relevant only insofar as it impacts the substance of health care reform legislation that's signed into law.

Democrats have the WH and Congress and a substantial voice in the media to frame the narrative of this; if we don't get the strong health care reform we need, we all have something to fear, and it will be the fault of Democrats who have the power to make the right thing happen.

 

[thermodynamics]

The problem with many (not all) of these opponents is that they can't string together solid, logical arguments. And when someone tests their logic with a thought experiment, the opponent claims they're putting words in their mouth.

 

[White Eagle]

Katy Abrams didn't make a fool of herself.

She went on a show where she knew her interviewer would disagree with her and would be prepared with knowledge and superior skill at arguing his position. That took courage and good for her.

She was respectful and she was forthright about presenting her opinion. (And she was right --O'Donnell was wrong-- that she'd heard Obama say he supported single-payer.)

She was not armed with information as O'Donnell was, like knowing we looked to Bismarck's social insurance program when modeling our own Social Security, but she made her point well enough. I know people like Katy Abram, my sister in law and brother in law are like her, and I bet most Americans know people like that. They're not stupid and even if they aren't polished in presenting their viewpoints, many of us don't agree that they make fools of themselves in their effort to be heard.

Well, I flip flopped. I promised not to respond to any of your posts. But her I am.

In regard to the line in red. She WAS armed with information. She believed all the lies the right is putting out. If she had done some research on the internet she would see what every American is able to see. The right is putting out misinformation right and left. It's no wonder there are people out there with this mindset.

 

[palemale]

Katy Abrams is the poster child for the dumbing down of debate in this society. She's also the perfect example of how the Republicans prey on the ignorance and prejudices of an uninformed population. O'Donnell's interview showed how ill-informed the opposition to the health care reform bills are (which is not to say that supporters of health care reform are well informed, but they're well informed enough to know that our health insurance system is a disaster).

Anyone who is going to go on television, or speak out at a town hall forum, and complain about socialized medicine should know that social security and medicare are socialized programs. If they do not, the deserve to be publicly skewered. If one advocates a ridiculous position like returning the country to the time of the founding fathers, she should be prepared to defend her position. She was publicly rather aggressive with Senator Spector, in front of a television camera, she deserved equally harsh treatment by O'Donnell.

Saying this is in no way disrespectful to Katy Abrams. All citizens, especially those who intend to speak out publicly, have an obligation to educate themselves on the issues on which they intend to speak.

 

[NickCole]

Well, I flip flopped. I promised not to respond to any of your posts. But her I am.

In regard to the line in red. She WAS armed with information. She believed all the lies the right is putting out. If she had done some research on the internet she would see what every American is able to see. The right is putting out misinformation right and left. It's no wonder there are people out there with this mindset.

Yes the right is putting out misinformation.

Obama's putting out misinformation as well.

I agree that's troubling and should be addressed.

But correctly informing those who are misinformed is not what you seemed interested in when you posted, "Boy I would have loved for Matthews to be the inquirer of that show. She would have left in tears."

You may fool the fools but you don't fool me.

 

[NickCole]

However, as she found out educated adults actually discuss things more in-depth than 30 seconds.

Watch again and bring your stopwatch.

The intelligent and educated Mr. O'Donnell (whom I like and respect, incidently) didn't "discuss things more in-depth than 30 seconds" ... whatever that means.

 

[White Eagle]

I've found the ignore feature crucial when you are trying to insulate yourself from lunacy on a discussion forum/site.

She was armed with exactly the 30 second sound bytes that define the Republican party. All those easy to remember, cheesy, little "Drill, baby drill" type platitudes. However, as she found out educated adults actually discuss things more in-depth than 30 seconds.

This idiot agreed to go on Hardball, not Knitting Circle Weekly, the Today Show, or Martha Stewart. It was Hardball!. And yet she couldn't answer the most basic of questions. She, just like Joe the Plumber™, showed how little she knows and the logical failure of her mind.

But really it shouldn't be a surprise. The Republican party has worshipped, celebrated, and exalted stupidity and uneducated boobism as the pinnacle of good government. The Republican establishment has pandered to this buffoons for 2 decades, and now the zoo animals of the extreme right have hijacked their zoo handlers of the Republican establishment, and taken over. Hence, the idiotic behavior of the right these past few years.

I don't put anyone on ignore. I like to see what they are all saying.

Nick, I'm sorry, but if Matthews had been there she would have gone away in tears regardless of what I or anyone else thinks. Sorry that you feel we are being too hard on her. She should have never gone on that show or any other one. It's just like Palin going on Katie Couric's show.

 

[NickCole]

Nick, I'm sorry, but if Matthews had been there she would have gone away in tears regardless of what I or anyone else thinks.

Assert that as fact all you want, the truth is you don't know what would have happened if Matthews had been there.

And that's beside the point. What I pointed to was the sadistic glee you revealed in this comment: "Boy I would have loved for Matthews to be the inquirer of that show. She would have left in tears."

If the goal is a strong and solid health care reform, nothing is gained by Katy Abrams or anybody else leaving in tears.

Sorry that you feel we are being too hard on her.

I don't "feel" you're being too hard on her.

Except for JockBoy87, nobody in this thread who's knocking her has even mentioned specifics of what she said. It's all personal insults and ridicule. The thirst for revenge, the desire to destroy, in so many Obama supporters is stunning. If you were "being hard on her" in response to the substance of what she said, taking issue with the opinions she offered, that'd be one thing. But yet again all some Obama supporters do is attempt to detroy.

If this is change you can believe in, it's hard to imagine the nature of the change you expect will come of this kind of nastiness.