Did Jesus Christ ever existed? If so...

[RobbyIsTehCool]

Respectfully, because you choose to ignore the burden of proof does not mean it is not there, my friend.

If you fail to provide that proof, many many unfortunate souls will be traversing into hell, because the arguements of reason are very persuasive.

For that reason, it should be your highest priority not to shrug off the burden of proof but in fact embrace and seek the proof. Without it, humanity is doomed to hell, and that is most unfortunate.

Respectfully.

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

This is the premise of the French philospher Pascal's famous "bet". That is to say, if you are a betting person, it is better to believe in God than not as here are the options:


There is no God and you believe-- no harm done
There is no God and you don't believe-- no harm done

There is a God and you believe-- good for you
There is a God and you don't believe-- oops!

Personally I would think if there is a God, he'd be on to you.

The atheists response is, generally...

"If god is, then we hope he respects intellectual integrity over cheap fear, and if he doesn't, then we have all been doomed from the start."

 

[bagley]

I don't think that the "Jesus" of the gospels really lived. I think Jesus is a composite mythic figure. Christianity seems to blend some Jewish teachings with a gnostic/ Hellenic mystery religion.

 

[provenlogic]

I'm reasonably convinced there was a real person named Jesus of Nazarith running around 2000 years ago. However i am more than equally convinced he was just a man. Holy man? Sure maybe, priest? Prophet? Whatever you'd like to call him. Deity? No. Supernatural? No. Son of god? No. Good role model if you don't take the things he said too literally? Probably. The whole son of god thing was added much later, around 400AD. Jesus himself would probably have a shit fest if he knew people actually beleived he was the son of god.

And no, i don't beleive in god. Just to clarify.

 

[drrimmm]

Personally I would think if there is a God, he'd be on to you.

He is. Thank God!!
My life is the only proof I need. I am so far better off now that I know Him than before when I didn't. Not in any material way, but in the way I live my life. Living in the service of God has improved my life in so many ways that even the people around me are seeing the difference. Miracles happen and I am one. I have died twice on the operating table only to "recover" after the doctors gave up hope. There are so many stories like mine that I can't help but believe.

 

[valis23]

Wasn't this an amazing production?

This clip gets really good about half-way through.

 

[Jeimuzu]

Could not 'prove' that today for sure... It's a faith thing, sorta like 'love,' cannot prove to me you love someone either.



Couple Billion people to date

1.) I have faith, just not in him. I have faith that if there's anything out there, it won't care if I kneel every sunday and chant repetitive dull dirge-like songs. It'll be happy if I live my life well, and if I offer those around me the respect they deserve. It matters what you do, not in whose name you do it. If God is good, I'm sure he'll be appeased by that. And never in my life have I loved someone I've never talked to, and have no real reason to believe that they exist.

2.) I was referring specifically to the Apostles. He didn't convince the billions, the book did that, undoubtedly sensationalising the story and adding a few things in to interpret - which a lot of people fail to do. For example, my RE teacher from secondary school interpreted the feeding of the 5000 as a case of Jesus convincing everyone to share their food - which is a much more sensible message than just saying "Wow! He's a wizard! He can make food!" No, he was a man, probably with heaps of charisma, who had people's well-being at heart.

I'm not saying he was a bad guy. I think that on some level, Jesus was probably a really nice guy, a born leader but humble, all of that. People like that happen. One in a million, but they happen. I regard him as a similar figure to Mother Theresa. He spent his life doing what was best for other people, and thought of them before himself.

However, I don't believe he was some sort of sorceror, which is what the bible suggests to all who're unwilling to interpret.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but frankly these are my religious beliefs, and I'm not gonna pretend for anyone's sake. I think organised mass religion is ludicrous, because the very principle of it is both archaic and pointless. If your God is good, then be a nice guy. He's not gonna cast a man into hell purely for being agnostic. You're just as well off hedging your bets and following a moral code. Spending your life basically kneeling and begging to get into heaven is hardly the best way. He wants you to live as a good man, according to pretty much the general gist of all holy books, usually. Live as a good man, and you'll find it easier to get into heaven than someone who spent all of his bowing and repeating chants.

Consider it this way. You're a manager, for the sake of this explanation. There are two people wanting to be hired. You interview them both. #1 spends the whole interview begging for the job, and at no point explaining why he deserves it. #2 has done everything you asked of applicants, but at no point actively begged for the job.

Who do you hire? And I know some managers like the whole begging, bowing down, bootlicker types, but assuming that you're an inherantly nice manager. I don't know what sort of manager you'd be in real life, to be honest.

Funny thing about the ceremonial nature of religion... kneeling. Lighting candles. Chanting about how wonderful he is. Doesn't that make you think of cults? It does with me. They're just sometimes quite big. Even the guy leading them will often wear ceremonial robes. This is supposed to be a celebration of what we've been given by some power up above, last I checked, not some magic ritual!

 

[SantaCBear]

And never in my life have I loved someone I've never talked to, and have no real reason to believe that they exist.

Thats because you dont think and believe as a christian does (no judgement meant), they believe by faith they do talk to God through prayer.

Back to the faith/love thing... Can you prove to me you love someone?

2.) I was referring specifically to the Apostles. He didn't convince the billions, the book did that

I addressed those issues in other posts above...

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

I have no doubt that Jesus existed, as he is considered a prophet in a number of religions, but to be the Son of God?

To those of you who believe in God, I apologise, but God is a figment of Man's imagination; a figment manufactured to keep the lower classes in their place, to give them something to fear and, at the same time, to revere.

The entire New Testament: the life and teachings of Jesus, was written years after his crucifixion and many parts, by those who only knew of Jesus through 2nd-, 3rd- and 4th-hand accounts .

The vast majority of Christian imagery, writings and doctrine has been taken from the ancient Egyptian religion, which had all but died out by the time Christianity started to become popular in the 4th Century CE.

ALL Christian festivals are set to the same dates and same cycles as the older Pagan festivals, a ploy by the Church to con the commonfolk into embracing the new Christian religion.

Slowly and surely, through very clever manipulation, Christianity has become a dominant religion, but over the centuries, the Church has deliberately obfuscated the truth about Jesus: that he was a common man, that he was a rebel and that he was not born of a virgin, in order to give him divine status.

That is a pretty rude thing to say, it's one thing if you don't believe in God, which is fine, but straight up telling some one that he/she does not exist, when they believe he/she does, is rude. This is a persons beliefs, just like you and I have.

You have no proof that there is no God, as any one else does. A person has a right to believe in a God, but to tell them there is no such thing is kind of stomping on ones beliefs.

It will be quite clear to you on whose side in this argument I fall on, as far as the idea goes.

But another problem can be seen here, one that does need to be dealt with.


Religion is worth discussing, but when atheists simply go into attack mode (as I know myself I have done), noone listens, because listening to a leaf blower is annoying.

However, hiding behind political correctness is a ridiculous notion when discussing the creator of the universe. Even more ridiculous when the creator has rules you must follow.


So stop whining about people 'ridiculing' your beliefs and defend them in an intelligent way. Don't just attack without really making it clear what your saying.

Thats all. Respectfully.

 

[Jeimuzu]

To those of you who believe in God, I apologise, but God is a figment of Man's imagination; a figment manufactured to keep the lower classes in their place, to give them something to fear and, at the same time, to revere.

That would've probably gone down a little better if you said "I believe" before God is a figment.

Oh, and SantaCBear, I should point out that, no, you haven't addressed that issue. He did not convince those people. He didn't walk up to those people and say those things. What happened was that most of those people were convinced by the bible, certainly in recent years - I refuse to believe that Jesus, even if he's the son of God, would appear to 2 billion people in person.

So, my point stands. He didn't convince them. They were convinced by a book, with undiscernable accuracy.

Anyways, you didn't comment on any of the rest of my post. If you're gonna compare your beliefs to mine, at least be thorough, please.

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

.Back to the faith/love thing... Can you prove to me you love someone?

Through the use of neuroscience, yes.

 

[SantaCBear]

Through the use of neuroscience, yes.

Interesting you bring that up

I saw a TV show on my local PBS station the other night claiming that 'Science' may be able to prove there is a 'God Spot' in our brain That is why so many believe in a god.

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

Your quite right. There is some evidence supporting that.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to effect the choice between the God of Abraham and Quetzecotl too terribly. Nor does it seem to effect the outcome of prayers.

Also, that research is suprisingly old. I was hearing about it seven years ago, to be frank.


PBS is really not the best place to get your scientific evidence. Respectfully, of course.

 

[Jeimuzu]

Neuroscience is a tricky area. It's almost impossible to work out what each little bit does. I prefer to look at this from a purely logical, and perhaps psychological angle, rather than anatomical.

As shocking as this is... I REALLY don't want to know what our brain does.

I'd like to think there's some level of me that exists in a non-physical way, and neuroscience has stripped away a couple of the things we were sure were part of the soul. I don't want to know if we cease to exist. I'd like to think there's an afterlife, but if we exist entirely in this body, it becomes impossible. Now, it doesn't matter if there actually is one. I'd like to die thinking eternal bliss awaits me, because if it doesn't, I'll never know.

 

[SantaCBear]

So, my point stands. He didn't convince them. They were convinced by a book, with undiscernable accuracy.

I thought I did explain it... I guess i did a poor job

'He' (God Head/Trinity) convinced them, the billions of people, through the Holy Spirit by enlightenment. This illumination gave them discernment to understand the scriptures.

Without the Holy Spirit's intervention the scripitures are as you believe a book of fairy tales.

 

[SantaCBear]

Also, that research is suprisingly old. I was hearing about it seven years ago, to be frank.

Yeah... I read a book by Matthew Alper on this subject about that long ago.

 

[metta]

I think that Jesus Christ existed as a man.

He was not THE son of God.

Mythologically, he could be considered the son of God in the same way that everyone is the son of God (came from nature), being that God is actually nature and not an individual being.

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

Neuroscience is a tricky area. It's almost impossible to work out what each little bit does. I prefer to look at this from a purely logical, and perhaps psychological angle, rather than anatomical.

As shocking as this is... I REALLY don't want to know what our brain does.

I'd like to think there's some level of me that exists in a non-physical way, and neuroscience has stripped away a couple of the things we were sure were part of the soul. I don't want to know if we cease to exist. I'd like to think there's an afterlife, but if we exist entirely in this body, it becomes impossible. Now, it doesn't matter if there actually is one. I'd like to die thinking eternal bliss awaits me, because if it doesn't, I'll never know.

Well I don't want to know that SID exists, nor aids, nor any other number of things.

Unfortunately, they do, and will continue to exist whether I like it or not.

Its gut thinking like this that keeps stem cell research from being publically researched, meaning that private companies will be able to hold back all that lovely information.

Then sell it at an incredible price.


Neuroscience may one day lead to cures for things like epilepsy, MS, Parkinsons and any other number of wonderful things.

Still, I respect your freedom and therefore your choice. But know that I do not respect the idea of remaining ignorant for conveniences sake, because its an idea that inevitably leads to impeding progress as opposed to embracing it.

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

Yeah... I read a book by Matthew Alper on this subject about that long ago.

Google "Neuroscience and the god spot" and I suspect you will find the general consensus is not in favor of the idea too terribly. Sam Harris writes about it as well, and he is a neuroscientist, or will be shortly. If I remember correctly, he said it didn't sound good.

The idea that sounds more plausible is the "God Network" in the brain, but that really does'nt say much. After all, theres a "being trained to use the toilet" network as well.

 

[Jeimuzu]

I'm an incredibly insecure teenager, terrified of death at the age of 18. I know it's a shallow attitude, but it's mine.

Either way, I don't want them to stop. I just don't want to know how it works. I just want them to find their cures and save lives.

I don't want to believe we don't have a soul, which only Neuroscience could prove. There's another not so shallow reason. If we don't have a soul, then our sexuality is anatomical, right? If we develop a way to modify small sections of the brain, then someone will start a clinic to turn people straight. While not all of us will go, some of us will, and when the next generation comes through, the conservative parents will, upon hearing that their son is gay, force him to have this surgery.

As our group gets smaller and smaller, we'll be regarded as less important as a demographic, our rights will shrink because there's less opposition, and more and more people will regard homosexuality as an abnormality. Suddenly, we shrink again. Basically, we'll lose most of our rights and be forced underground, and all the hard work gay rights activists will have put in will be for nothing.

Maybe I sound like I should have a sandwich board on saying The End Is Nigh, but if there're any logical flaws in the possibility, please do point them out. It'd be something of a comfort, really.

In a while, when homosexuality is as normal as heterosexuality, then we'll be ready for neuroscience of that level. Not convinced we are yet.