Do u think bullying is being scapegoated?

[Yves]

I think bullying is a contributing factor in gay youth suicide.....but I dont think that bullying causes suicide (bullycide)

Studies have shown that gay, lesbian and bisexual teenagers are significantly more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers.

Suicide causality is multifactorial, but suicide risk factors such as lack of social support, bullying, abuse or depression are critical. A gay teenager with a history of bullying living in unsupportive surroundings is at higher risk.

A recent study from Columbia University has provided more evidence. Researchers looked at the suicide risk of nearly 32,000 teenagers in Oregon: The risk of an attempt was 20% greater among gay teenagers who lacked supportive social surroundings, like schools with gay-straight alliance groups or school policies that specifically protected gay, lesbian and bisexual students.

The social environment and suicide attempts in lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth
Pediatrics
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21502225

Community a Factor in Suicide Attempts by Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Teens
Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/305/19/1951.extract

 

[kallipolis]

And there are no excuses or reasons for allowing bullying to continue, either. That is denying the problem exists.

Self-empowerment is just fine for those who aren't terrified of violence. Most victims of bullies simply are not cut out for martial arts. To lay the blame on them for their own lives is ridiculous. The bullies are to blame - not the victims.

There should be zero tolerance for bullying in every school and on every school property. There isn't, and the bullying continues unabated and kids are dying because of it. 'Sticks and stones' doesn't work anymore, and bullies are little more than murderers who use words instead of guns and knives.

The school authorities; the police; the judiciary; politicians et al are powerless to stop bullying.

Murder, robbery, muggings etc are all illegal and yet occur with great frequency.

Bullying has been a fact of life since the year dot.

We conquer our fears by facing up to them, and not drowning our self in a pool of tears bitching over why life is so unfair to us.

Our answer to bullying is only revealed when we learn how to defend our self, and by so doing deter bullying.

Many soft, gentle school boys are doing just that.

I am one of their teachers who offers my skills, and experience on a voluntary basis.

Stop presenting us with excuses. Our well being is our responsibility.

 

[wonderwort]

I do admit that the word "scapegoat" was a bad choice of words.

How many here would disagree if the title was

" Do you think we are over reacting or over hyping or blowing bullying way of proportion?"

 

[Seasoned]

As no one can get inside the mind of anyone else no one can claim that because they survived bullying that everyone else can.

 

[kallipolis]

As no one can get inside the mind of anyone else no one can claim that because they survived bullying that everyone else can.

Bullies succeed because their victims permit them to succeed.

When we stand up to bullies by learning to defend our self the bullying stops.

The example set by those victims of bullying who have learnt to defend themselves is an encouragement for other victims to emulate their success.

Either we take personal responsibility for our well being, or we become yet another statistic.

 

[mbamike]

No, I do not think bullying is being scapedgoated. I don't understand the need to bully someone in the first place. There seems to be something missing in these situation.

I agree with Kallipolis up to the point of self-defense. Ask the bully to stop and report the bullying to the authorities. If this does not resolve the issue, then defend yourself by kicking the bully's ass.

 

[kallipolis]

No, I do not think bullying is being scapedgoated. I don't understand the need to bully someone in the first place. There seems to be something missing in these situation.

I agree with Kallipolis up to the point of self-defense. Ask the bully to stop and report the bullying to the authorities. If this does not resolve the issue, then defend yourself by kicking the bully's ass.

I've known a stereotypical neurotic Mary take self defence lessons to defend their well being against assault by those who would attempt to abuse them by physical violence, and public humiliation.The bullying stopped when one of the regular abusers received a broken wrist.

Academic exchanges that vent our rage on such matters as bullying will not address, and certainly not solve the problem of bullying.

Either we take personal responsibility for our well being, or we can expect to be abused for being another recent immigrant who speaks with a funny accent; or for being fat, skinny, tall, short, red head, queer, black, Asian etc.

 

[Sam Blum]

We are now in a realm of semantics. Scapegoat: The expression comes from an ancient Jewish custom whereby the Rabbis would come together once a year and curse a goat with all of the sins of the town before sending it out into the wilderness, thereby freeing the townspeople of their wickedness. Then the Rabbis would bless the best lamb and sacrifice it for God.

People who choose to coerce, to stress, to subjugate, to diminish and marginalize others; individuals and groups who choose to make people vulnerable to psychological illness, physical violence and who choose to cause others emotional pain, who decide to act in a way that will stunt another's mental, social, sexual, financial, physical well-being and growth are deliberately acting to undermine and ruin another person. In an age of instant communication and revelation, and in a time when even school children in the Western World are mostly aware of the consequences of their choices and actions, it is oddly out of sync with social evolution to claim our violent intentions have no real consequences and do not predictably culminate in the demise of another through suicide.

It is the specious argument to claim intimidation is only a 'cog' in the machine of suicide. It is impossible to separate the "internal" and the "external" struggles that adolescents work through from any victimizing intimidation that they are subject to.

And while I address that point: To claim that there is no place for the word "VICTIM" is to steal another word from the vocabulary of any victim of bullying to describe what it is that they may well feel. It is dishonourable to reduce the ability of a person who has been treated in such a way from articulating their position and emotional standing.

 

[HunterM]

Bullying has always been around through the history of mankind. Empires bullied each other. Dictators bullied people with tanks and guns. Communists lined people up and shot them to death for not having the same belief as the Communist party. Political activists are being arrested for life for speaking out against their own government. There were waves of random carjacking and kidnapping (children, teeanger, adults, whoever) in Mexico City a few years ago for ransome money. Drug lords/mafia are bullying local citizens/businesses to pay protection money, etc. Being gay is a crime (punishable by death) in the some Middle Eastern countries. Some people did commit suicide because they couldn't deal with it. But many many people do what it takes to survive because life (to them) is worth living.

When Communists took over Russia, China, Loas, Vietnam, etc., highly educated people (professors, lawyers, doctors) and weathly families (adults and children) were being persecuted...arrested, being spat on in town squares as public humiliation, bannished to the wilderness (labor camp prisoners) isolated from the rest of society, or shot to death because high education is poisonous to the minds. Universities were shut down. Finishing junior high is good enough education for the masses because smart people is harder to be controlled. After junior high, teenagers were drafted to the army by force and trained to be good Communist soldiers.

Fast forward to today, parents need to be much more involved in their children's lives! Rearing children is not the government's or school's responsibilities! Know what they are doing; know who they are hanging out; know what they are feeling; BE IN THEIR BUSINESS so you would know how to support your children...to instill self-esteem and confidence in them. Teach them the courage to live with a purpose...to HAVE FUN with life...to manage stress...to resolve conflicts, etc. Teach them "you cannot please everyone. You don't have control over other people's actions...just as you cannot control earthquakes, Tsunami, hurricanes, etc."

Some parents just feel sorry for their children when things don't go well in their children's lives. Feeling sorry is not helping anyone to grow. They need to do something. Teach them life lessions and how to manage in this world...is the parents' job. Give them a purpose to live.

Teach them love, courage, peace begin within ourselves. Then we can change what's around us.

 

[kallipolis]

Too bad your example is not always the case and that not every individual is capable of doing so for a variety of reasons. By not targeting Bullying as the problem, we'd also can expect to continually abused and taunted by people for being 'different'.

Self limiting our choices to respond to bullying restricts our birth right to live in freedom from fear of violence, and other forms of personal abuse.

Either we take responsibility for our well being, or expect to be abused.

There is nothing to be gained by crying over the injustices of life.

I took responsibility for my well being when I was threatened by learning to defend myself.

 

[kallipolis]

It is dishonourable to reduce the ability of a person who has been treated in such a way from articulating their position and emotional standing.

Totally agree.

I recall your report on your particular incident very well.

 

[Sam Blum]

How many here would disagree if the title was
" Do you think we are over reacting or over hyping or blowing bullying way of proportion?"

Okay, because I'm a bit slow and only read the opening handful of posts before I went nuts and blurted out my thoughts, I now have to ask how many people responding to these questions have either first hand or as teachers or parents dealt with the children who struggle to cope with incessant bullying by some person? I don't mean occasional taunting - I say incessant and that is what I mean. Kids who are subjected to the overwhelming threats of a particular person or group, or over time perhaps because those kids start to develop physical responses that betray their experiences and desperation to survive the threats of many people or groups. Some people go on to become the victims of rape, incest, neighborhood beatings, muggings, self-harm and suicide.

It frustrates me so much to read that even here, among a group of generally well informed, socially inclusive gay men, that some refuse to believe that there is such a thing as a direct consequence for social and psychological/physical intimidation and victimisation that is so extreme that it results in suicide.

Okay, just ignore me - I can see my grammar has lost construct and I'm clearly too flu-ey and emotional to think clearly on this one.

 

[kallipolis]

It's not 'limiting', not everyone who is bullied has the physical/mental means to do so. Especially when someone has a bully on their hands. And fighting a bully isn't always going to end with on you top, that is just one possible scenario.



That is nice and I am glad you did. But you can't expect people to do the same thing you did, not everyone is like you, people are different and handle things differently.

There is nothing to be gained over 'crying', but we're talking about kids. At this point the adults are the ones who should be taking care of the responsibility of the childrens well being.

You are presuming to speak on behalf of others; which you cannot.

Murder, muggings, robbery etc are illegal and yet are a common occurrence.

Society's institutions cannot stop bullying, any more than society can stop murder. If the bullies do not abuse their victims on the school premises they will find them, and abuse them off school premises.

Parents can empower their children by introducing them to self defence classes that will ensure their children are able to defend themselves against bullying.

Many gentle children are self empowered through learning self defence techniques sufficiently for them to stand up to bullies.

Academic discussions that vent our rage over acts of bullying will not resolve the issue of bullying, any more than we can stop murder, war, rape etc.

 

[gsdx]

The school authorities; the police; the judiciary; politicians et al are powerless to stop bullying.

Blame the victims, then. I'm done with this.

 

[kallipolis]

I doubt whether any one on this thread would deny the many consequences arising from bullying.

There are no guarantees against any form of violence against the human person, by another human being. Domestic violence and abuse of children by their parents rarely enters the debate for discussion of such abuses remains taboo.

 

[kallipolis]

I'm definitely not trying to speak for others.

I am saying that not everyone is physically or mentally capable of using your 'solution'. Bullies tend to make people for weaker and inferior and not every individual is capable from picking themselves up from that. Bullies don't pick on kids that are bigger than them for a reason.

So you are suggesting that since these things still happen regardless of trying to crack down on the issues is useless because they'll still happen? Because that sounds like laziness to me. Not everything needs to be solved with a physical confrontation.

You are assuming that your idea is the only way to combat the issue. Which it is not.

And this sounds too close to saying just because the way a woman dresses she should expected to be harassed by groups of men. Or even worse, raped.

Some of the greatest martial arts champions are short, skinny and gentle people. They learnt to defend themselves as a result of being bullied, abused and violated by bigger boys when they were attending school.

Society does not have the means to eliminate all crime. No matter how many police officers there are in our local communities crime will continue to be a fact of life.

Either we lock the door of our home, or we invite uninvited guests to steal our possessions.

Weak, gentle children learn to defend themselves against the assaults of bigger boys knowing that only they can take full responsibility for their well being, and life.

Self empowerment reduces our risk of being violated, and abused.

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

Suicide for any cause likely is the result of a domino effect and not one event. When these events add up and one sees no way out (change) through the help of others or environment then its easy to figure out a final solution or change the best you can to end suffering.

It was a horrible solution for the people in the top of the burning world trade center to realize a better choice was to jump from the burning inferno to a gruesome death 80 floors below. Yet a better solution then the hell they were in for those minutes.
Yet not everyone chose to jump, or commit suicide by jumping. No one can blame those that did if they disagree with suicide. The physical pain is treated differently. Mental illness and extreme distress can burn/terrorize/ & scar just like
physical pain to a point. All is everlasting and numbing depending on person.

What amazes me are some of the answers here how many can only relate to their personal circumstances as the logical best choice, a superior choice as if they have the answers for someones situation making those that commit suicide because of bullying due to being gay seem weak spiritually or mentally.
There seems to be a very real lack of empathy, a understanding what someone else is or could be going through.

What terrorizes one person to make a drastic and final solution to their problems might not bother another however that doesn't mean the tough guy would be so tough in another life long battle where as the bullied might not consider suicide but the kick boxer might bow out. Another weapon of the bulllied is to take out a first aggression on the bullier hurting them with a weapon and then they are charged. This is common too, often overlooked.

You call me a fag (bully me for whatever reason) in school everyone laughs. They do it everyday. Then I get a gun I blow your fucking ass away and I will show you who is weak. I believe there was a certain high school in Colorado where this example can be used effectively?

Family, oppression due to religion, basic regional or Countrywide held views on things like homosexuality easily are reason enough to see a endless black hole that does not get better with time but only leads to mental anguish, belittlement, & lonely suffering for a life time because its accepted or tolerated.

Certainly gay bullying (and there are many types) is a key factor to suicide amongst gay men, young and old.

You are a black sheep in a sea of white sheep and the white sheep want you out of the flock. You are the broken machine to many and when they gang up as one voice they find power to kick you even harder when you are down for their own ego building, and no fear or true punishment.

 

[kallipolis]

I hope you aren't suggesting that regular scapegoating is acceptable.That's simplistic, kalli. Hey, kid, haul your ass out of that wheechair and learn self defence.

Is it?

Not so for those parents who are ensuring that their children are suitably empowered through self defence lessons to defend themselves against bullies.

 

[kallipolis]

I've already made points about this, people are differently and handle thing differently.



No one is suggesting that bullying would be fully stopped, I don't think anyone even suggested in a thread about bullying. But it seems like a common point that comes into the thread.

Of course these things exist, but you take action against it you are showing that there is something wrong with it. And when you take action against it you're limiting the amount of people who are effected by the crimes/bullying. You can't completely eliminate these things, but the less people that get hurt with these things when we take action against it, the better.

No one on this thread is suggesting that official measures should not be implemented to reduce, even eliminate bullying.

However..... despite rewarding murderers with a life time prison sentence, or even execution murder remains a constant reminder that the state cannot eliminate acts of violence, and thus each of us should equip our self with the means to defend our self. Even then this is not guarantee against all acts of violence.

 

[kallipolis]

This is just as idealistic as your suggestion that people think we can completely stop bullying/crime. And you ignored his initial point.

You think that just because these kids would learn self defense lessons that it's going to work out. You're wrong, things don't always work that way.

When you drive your motorcycle you wear a helmet to reduce the risk of injury, or death should you meet with a traffic accident. Likewise you wear a safety harness when driving, or being a passenger in a car.

Learning to defend your self reduces the risk of serious assault, even death.

The only guarantees in life are that you will pay taxes, and die.

I am happy that I am a master of Wing chun knowing that my skills are sufficient to reduce a potential abuser to painful tears.