Do u think bullying is being scapegoated?

[StlKj]

Is it?

Not so for those parents who are ensuring that their children are suitably empowered through self defence lessons to defend themselves against bullies.

But by your argument, if all parents taught their kids self defense, then bullies would get even better at kicking ass.

One could just as easily say all parents should teach their kids not to bully.

We know neither of those things is going to happen, so continuing to reiterate it is pointless.

 

[Sam Blum]

...You are a black sheep in a sea of white sheep and the white sheep want you out of the flock. You are the broken machine to many and when they gang up as one voice they find power to kick you even harder when you are down for their own ego building, and no fear or true punishment.

I have to agree that Tombastep has a valid point that not everyone is able or inclined for whatever reason/s to respond to violent hostility with physical defences, and as a one time friend in the SAS here in Perth once commented, you never want to say you know Martial Arts unless you really have to because for all you know, the other guy is more highly trained. When I was in Year Eight, the brawl of the year was booked by students for a week before it happened when a tall skinny kid called Ron who was apparently very good at Karate was scheduled into a match with a huge, genetic experiment called Lachlan. Ron won the battle, but the rest of the year saw him having to face up to all of Lachlan's mates on the way out of school at the end of the day - everyday. It was relentless.

That said, I was broken before I finally realised that I had to be prepared to fight if I were to survive. The bullies may not have the unqualified support of the majority in all instances, but on the whole, it is the order of society that facilitates the process of domineering behaviour in the first place and we mostly are biologically predisposed to support the most aggressive, most domineering males. Some of us subvert, some of us learn how to effectively undermine that authority, but mostly people go along with that order.

THAT said, some countries clearly have more evolved social order than others and it is not lost on me that those countries have higher proportions of their populations completing higher education and living in better, more equitable and more comfortable conditions.

So, which comes first, the mind and heart shift or the better education and living conditions? I do think you can legislate to control parental behaviours and responsibilities, to manipulate juvenile social behaviours and to re-shape social orders and priorities. I do think teachers and social administrators can be trained to recognise and value the influences that they can wield over these constant difficulties, and I do think that all members of society have a responsibility to change their own behaviours and those of aggressive folk around them. We have evolved socially a great deal in the First World over the last 70 years and there is no reason we shouldn't put much greater expectations upon ourselves to improve more rapidly and decisively.

 

[kallipolis]

But by your argument, if all parents taught their kids self defense, then bullies would get even better at kicking ass.

One could just as easily say all parents should teach their kids not to bully.

We know neither of those things is going to happen, so continuing to reiterate it is pointless.

In a Utopian world ideals are easily implemented.

Meantime, back in our dysfunctional society we can attempt to balance the equation by learning to defend our self against those who prey on the weak, and defenceless person.

Following your logic we should disarm our armed forces as an example for others to emulate, and invite other countries not to intimidate, or coerce us with their military forces as a means to create a better world.

 

[kallipolis]

THAT said, some countries clearly have more evolved social order than others and it is not lost on me that those countries have higher proportions of their populations completing higher education and living in better, more equitable and more comfortable conditions.

So, which comes first, the mind and heart shift or the better education and living conditions? I do think you can legislate to control parental behaviours and responsibilities, to manipulate juvenile social behaviours and to re-shape social orders and priorities. I do think teachers and social administrators can be trained to recognise and value the influences that they can wield over these constant difficulties, and I do think that all members of society have a responsibility to change their own behaviours and those of aggressive folk around them. We have evolved socially a great deal in the First World over the last 70 years and there is no reason we shouldn't put much greater expectations upon ourselves to improve more rapidly and decisively.

In the developed world the United States demonstrates the highest rates of crime per capita.

This despite a highly evolved system of primary, secondary and higher education.

This despite the easy willingness and apparent deterrent value of the judicial systems in the various American states to imprison offenders for long periods, and even use capital punishment in response to capital crimes.

How does this square with your reasoning?

 

[kallipolis]

^

That's why parents are introducing their children to self defence classes, knowing that with all the good will that there is in the world, there will remain those who will prey on the weak, and defenceless person.

Better to have defended our self against violent assault knowing that we have tried our best, even were we to die in the process.

Following your logic in 1939 the free world should have permitted Germany, Italy and Japan to have their way in order to avoid incurring casualties.

No, thanks. I am not a defeatist for I respect myself with my actions, not just with words.

Any one who dares to assault me will be rewarded suitably.

 

[kallipolis]

No, NOT following my logic. Read my first paragraph about the armed forces and why they're different.

I'll quote your words:

And even if they were to fend off attackers, the mental/emotional aspect of the abuse could still be enough to put them over the edge. Not to mention, if they lose the fight the risk of serious injury is increased, because now instead of just maybe a push or a shove, and/or maybe a punch, they've now been beaten to a pulp.


I will take the risk of being injured, or even killed when choosing to defend myself against those who would dare to abuse my right to live in freedom from violence, and any other form of abuse.

 

[kallipolis]

No, in regards to your military reference, this is the quote in my own words:

That's totally different. Your armed forces have no one higher to look to if attacked. They're the last line of defense. They are specially trained professionals. They're adults. It's their job.

Or are you suggesting victims of bullies run the risk of having their homes occupied, losing everything, and being sent to a gas chamber if they don't fight back because nobody else is powerful enough to step in and stop it? That is, after all, the situation in your 1939 example.

You know, if the Allies could have ran to the the world principal and told on Germany and given them detention, or reported them to the world police and had them arrested and thrown in jail for a night, or called their parents, that would have been much more preferable, but that was completely unrealistic and impossible for obvious reasons. For kids it's not, or at least, shouldn't be. There are better alternatives to physical fighting which should only be reserved as a last resort if all else fails. If a kid's own fist is his or her last resort, then something with society is broken.

Find a single child psychologist out there who would disagree with me.

Unlike you I do not know every child psychologist out there to test your claim.

To ensure that bullies do not gain the upper hand there is an absolute need to stand up to them by defending our right not to be bullied.

Had the free world not stood up to the Axis powers in 1939/45 there is a strong possibility that the world's gay population would have been incinerated by those Nazis advocating Eugenic techniques to purify the human race. Not just the Jews. Not just the Gypsies, but also we queers for daring to be different from the majority.

When the free world stood up to the likes of Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini it was with an absolute will to sacrifice everything to be able to live in freedom from enslavement.

I repeat that the only way to defeat bullies is to stand up to them and use all means - legal, and otherwise - at our disposal to stop them from committing their acts of violence.

I must go to work. Thanks, for the exchanges.

 

[StlKj]

In a Utopian world ideals are easily implemented.

Meantime, back in our dysfunctional society we can attempt to balance the equation by learning to defend our self against those who prey on the weak, and defenceless person.

Following your logic we should disarm our armed forces as an example for others to emulate, and invite other countries not to intimidate, or coerce us with their military forces as a means to create a better world.

No, that's not following my logic. I didn't say holding hands would work. My point was that arguing we should all hold hands is about as pointless as you repeatedly saying to teach them self-defense. Ideally, they would all know self defense AND hold hands.

Again, not going to happen, unfortunately.

 

[gsdx]

Abuse is illegal. Grown-ups can be charged and imprisoned for abuse, both physical and mental. Abusers are nothing more than bullies in size 10 shoes. People end up dead because of it.

Schoolyard bullies rarely get so much as a slap on the wrist. Nobody thinks it's a big enough problem to worry about and school authorities pass it off because they either don't know how or are afraid to deal with it. They close their eyes and ears to the reports of the suicides, passing them off as 'a child with problems'. They see the effect, but they don't dare look at the cause.

What about the children who are abused by paedophiles? They are scarred for life, and some never recover from it. It follows them throughout their lives. Some even take their lives because they can't face life let alone face themselves.

Spousal abuse. Paedophile abuse. Bully abuse. It's all the same. It's all rape - rape of the mind if not the body. There is abuse and there are helpless victims. The only difference is that bullies get away with it and their victims die because nobody cares. . . or tells the victims to grow some balls and stand up for themselves.

Society has to wake up and see bullying as the crime that it is and start dealing with it as a crime. We can't eradicate it any more than we can eradicate any other crime, but we can certainly show the bullies that there are consequences to their actions.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Does bullying really cause suicide or is bullying being overly scapegoated?

My personal view is that bullying doesn't directly cause suicide but it can be a contributing factor.

I've did a poll on "How comfortable were you in high school with your homosexuality?". 57% of the votes came back as "NOT AT ALL" comfortable with their homosexuality during high school. http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348189&highlight=bullying+suicide

My theory is that the adolenscent years (12--18 years) are the most vunerable years of young gay person's life. The added pressure that alot gay youth have go thru that straight youth dont have to go are

1)Struggling with their homosexuality (internally)

2)Having to cope with external homophia in all it's ugly forms.

On top of the internal and external pressures of being gay........a gay youth has the added pressure of being bullied constantly.....and all the factors work together........and leads to youth attempting or commiting suicide.

I think bullying is a contributing factor in gay youth suicide.....but I dont think that bullying causes suicide (bullycide)

Therefore I think bullying is being scapegoated.

(I do agree that with all the efforts to try to stop bullying.....and bullying is truly hurtful)

try figure reply this yet world abouts obvious dawn of MAN discova ----------

shame of countrys>collections of soemthang< is noted right a up ta da minute ans second ofs a now wot they put folk through no just da latest new words

bullyings< so a word is no a cover it of da fun so many countrys collections of somethang put sooooooooooooo many folk through fa eons

internet a amazin ins its just amazin ans amaazin da stuff internet dig up ta make amazin

thankyou



wot human cultures of collections a somethangs make achievenments past 200 year?
Lot a extras

ans
' SSSSSSSH '
ooh!

nice day now

 

[barnbuddy]

no

how many times have we heard the same story:

kid bulliied in school, later kid kills self

sure, it's more complex, every human story is

but these are our little gay brothers and sisters

and if we don't have their back...

man, I don't get some people

 

[kallipolis]

Kall, I see this sentiment as "blaming the victim."

On a related note, most families—particularly in this recession—can not afford martial arts training.

The dead we cannot help. We can help the living; those who need advice, and support for them to defend themselves against bullying.

The cost of classes for self defence lessons is minimal when participating in a class with other children. The alternative is to suffer.

 

[kallipolis]

No, that's not following my logic. I didn't say holding hands would work. My point was that arguing we should all hold hands is about as pointless as you repeatedly saying to teach them self-defense. Ideally, they would all know self defense AND hold hands.

Again, not going to happen, unfortunately.

Then we agree.

We can work towards helping the bullied person to stand up to the bullies.

 

[kallipolis]

Following your logic, allied forces will mobilize against bullies.

Jamey and plenty of others are alone against gangs. It's real and it's brutal and it never ends. It's not some Karate Kid movie with a happy ending because the kid learns how to balance on one foot.

Bullied kids kill themselves because in their lives, no one cares.

Many bullied children are helped when they speak to their parents, friends, teachers and others.

The overwhelming majority of bullied children to do not kill themselves.

Self defence lessons empowers bullied children.

 

[kallipolis]

I understand this idea in principle, Kall, but please keep in mind that a particularly vicious recession rages in the United States, so few parents these days could afford even this expense.

I agree with you, however, that a high-risk child in a family of decent income, should be given the opportunity to learn a martial art. A bullied child would probably jump at the opportunity.

I am an example of a martial arts teacher who provides free lessons for primary, and secondary age children who I select as my pupils.

I select those who are particularly physically weak and vulnerable.

I am not alone in supporting the vulnerable person with practical assistance.

 

[sixthson]

Typically, Lucky, the suicide takes place only after months or years of bullying. It's very seldom a snap decision.

It seems to be easy to be unaffected by a suicide when it happens to someone unrelated to you, in a state far away.

But when a brother or sister, or son or best friend does it, the scars never heal. Ever.

If I am not mistaken, Lucky is talking about bullying, you are talking about suicide.

 

[fetaby]

I'm afraid of what may become of society if we take this too seriously.. to the point where nothing can be said even in jest and kids are jumping off bridges because they are called "girly" or "unathletic".
Of course stop physical abuse.. the rest is a gray area.

Really? Let me guess, you're just joking... Is a laugh more important than another person?

 

[Sam Blum]

In the developed world the United States demonstrates the highest rates of crime per capita.

This despite a highly evolved system of primary, secondary and higher education.

This despite the easy willingness and apparent deterrent value of the judicial systems in the various American states to imprison offenders for long periods, and even use capital punishment in response to capital crimes.

How does this square with your reasoning?

Actually, I was not thinking of the USA! I know, I know, highly developed...blah,blah,blah. I was contemplating Northern and Central European countries - I should have been more explicit - sorry.

But the 'deterrent' value of imprisonment and capital punishment is questionable, particularly when the social programming is geared to destabilise empathy and equity.

And I have to be honest and overt and remind you that I am 'to the Left.' I don't consider indoctrination or merely teaching kids how to read the advertisements and movie scripts an education. I was thinking of 'education' as more along the lines of giving students a classical education, teaching them the fundamentals, teaching them how to think critically, how to analyse, how to assess for biases, how to explore the lives of others and how to fit into a world that includes others on equitable terms. So, as you can see, that precludes a typical American (and Australian) education, sadly.

 

[Sam Blum]

That's totally different. Your armed forces have no one higher to look to if attacked. They're the last line of defense. They are specially trained professionals. They're adults. It's their job...
Sorry, that's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it.

The armed forces of the world do have a higher authority to respond to: In the event that they have no government, they have the United Nations for guidance and counsel, and the International Court. But I wonder if being a paid employee or being of an age of majority has much to do with the logic of the debate of this question of scapegoating, bullying and the consequences of bullying/influence on suicidal behaviour.

And there are many martial arts combatants who as teens have training that exceeds that of many soldiers. But importantly, it is apparently normal for martial arts instructors train their fighters to learn to respect each other, and to respect themselves. I haven't done martial arts training, but I did have to academically study the arts of Kendo and Karate when I studied Japanese language and culture back in the day, and the instructors we met were very clear on this point.

 

[Sam Blum]

Oh god.. not bullying again.

I think the subject of bullying is "in".

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. I'm afraid of what may become of society if we take this too seriously.. to the point where nothing can be said even in jest and kids are jumping off bridges because they are called "girly" or "unathletic".
Of course stop physical abuse.. the rest is a gray area.

What the Fuck? Are you completely insane? Have you lost your mind altogether or what is happening inside your head? Are you a fuckwit? It amazes me when people of your ilk spread this caustic poison across the world with absolute disregard for the feelings and well-being of others. Clearly you are either a sociopath or the result of some kind of narcotics experiment.

Anyway, I do not, OF COURSE, mean any of that garbage, but I do wonder if it might have taken you by surprise or set you a little on edge - just a little? Perhaps not, but if you opened the newspapers and regularly saw something that spoke down to you that was then reinforced with intimidating behaviour at school by students and or teachers, by preachers, by neighbours and perhaps by siblings or even by parents and police officers etc, I wonder if you might feel the net closing in on you?

Empathy doesn't actually cost you anything, and in return you will find your perceptions enriched. There is nothing "gray" about non-physical bullying.