Do you agree with Jesse Ventura's statement?

[Lostlover]

What did he say that was wrong, may I ask?

Nothing. And he knows it.

He started an obsession with me by taking a comment I made in general, to heart. Basically some people were like "yeah release the photos". You know, the photos that show American officials abusing Muslim detainees.

They're starting a fire they won't live to put out.

And I noted that it's odd that all the older posters were favoring the release especially when it's not them that will deal with the Muslim world in the future. It also wasn't them that voted for a president that sought to make peace with that part of the world.

They've had their day. Now, they need to move.

I basically was questioning why they said to hell with this country? And he just took that to heart.

Only a few more years of this nonsense.

 

[chuck10x]

What did he say that was wrong, may I ask?

Old white people
Old white women
Old white women with hoses
Sounds like a country/Western song to me.
People do not become Bigots when they turn 50.
It is learned behavior and LL is turning out nicely.
As I said in another post.
The definition of Bigot is:
A person obstinately or internally devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially one who regards ot treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.

 

[Lostlover]

Old white people
Old white women
Old white women with hoses
Sounds like a country/Western song to me.
People do not become Bigots when they turn 50.
It is learned behavior and LL is turning out nicely.
As I said in another post.
The definition of Bigot is:
A person obstinately or internally devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially one who regards ot treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.

Actually, I don't dislike any group. I was born in the 80's not the 40's or 50's.

You gotta deal with all kinds of people. I prefer judging people by how they act now what they might do or their skin color.

By the way, to all the complainers on here, I'm reading James Carville's latest book 40 More Years: How the Democrats Will Rule the Next Generation. Let me just say this, so far we see eye to eye on the root cause for a lot of the problems in America.

If I write about this book, will people not respond to the text or make remarks about me?

 

[chuck10x]

Nothing. And he knows it.

He started an obsession with me by taking a comment I made in general, to heart. Basically some people were like "yeah release the photos". You know, the photos that show American officials abusing Muslim detainees.

They're starting a fire they won't live to put out.

And I noted that it's odd that all the older posters were favoring the release especially when it's not them that will deal with the Muslim world in the future. It also wasn't them that voted for a president that sought to make peace with that part of the world.

They've had their day. Now, they need to move.

I basically was questioning why they said to hell with this country? And he just took that to heart.

Only a few more years of this nonsense.

The older Republican voters did not want the photo's released.
President Obama and the Left Democrats wanted them released.
Once the Court decided to release them, President Obama flipped and wanted them blocked and the Older Republicans agree with him on this issue.
If you have any source material that says different please submit it.

 

[MystikWizard]

Old white people
Old white women
Old white women with hoses
Sounds like a country/Western song to me.
People do not become Bigots when they turn 50.
It is learned behavior and LL is turning out nicely.
As I said in another post.
The definition of Bigot is:
A person obstinately or internally devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially one who regards ot treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.

Well, I know Older people may not want to hear it, but he is absolutely correct. When I speak, assume that I am not referring to "All older people", but generally speaking, yes the bigotry in this country tends to reside in the 50 and older crowd. If you are Older on here and presumably Gay, don't assume that claim necessarily applies to you. But again, generally speaking, yes there are a lot more bigots and racists in the older crowd than the younger crowd.

You saw who voted against Prop 8. And the racial hostilities in this country again are clearly reside more in the 50 and older crowd as opposed to the younger generation.

Every generation has its own share of faults. Those are the faults of that particular generation. And like Lost has said, there really is no other way to change their engrained attitudes towards Race and Sexuality other than for there to be generational change. The older they get, the less relevant they become ... and will eventually die. I know that sounds morbid and it is. But since they will not change in their attitudes, that is what needs to happen in order for real change to take place in this country. This really is nothing new.

 

[iman]

We have a choice. We can talk about the present, or the past.

When I talk about the past historical position of black people, I can correctly compare it to the past historical position of gay people. The parallels are obvious.

The parallels are also obvious in more recent history. iman, if you are free to go where you want it is because brave people laid down their lives. And I will not debate people who want to twist my words to suggest that I compare the modern position of gay people to the historical position of black people. However, when we are comparing histories, I would point out that nonchristian or nonsubservient women were also burned en masse as witches in the so called land of the brave and home of the free.

My point is, it hurts just as badly if you are burned as a witch, or lynched for being black, or beaten up, tied to a fence and left to die for being gay. In each case it is systematic opportunism combined with hatred.

Any anyone who feels they are entitled to a greater degree of indignation because they belong to x or y such group is an idiot, and I intend to continue saying so.

The struggle for equal dignity is only one struggle, and the only equation that can be made is "civil rights" = "equal rights for gays."

NO, what you have been doing is comparing the past to the present. The mere fact that there are so few Matthew Shepards to point to is an indication that we do not quite meet the qualifications to be permanent victims. Sheperd himself led a rather uneventful life until he picked up the wrong guys.

It is good for everyone that we deplore events like the Sheperd murder, but let's not believe our own propaganda and walk around like we are bearing a cross up the mountain. Seen anyone in a Crown of Thorns at the White Party lately?

The story that gays should be celebrating is the success of so many gay people in the face of hostility and the lives that gays have carved out for themselves despite the harassment and prejudice, all the while working to gain full civil rights.

Maybe there are two different personalities at work in the gay community - one that enjoys being gay and enjoys the gay life style who lives his life fully and the other personality that never adjusts to being gay and wants to imitate a st8 lifestyle, hungering for st8 acceptance and posing as a victim when that acceptance is not fully forthcoming and desperately looking for someone or some group to blame for his problems.

Believe it or not; we have that choice.

 

[chuck10x]

Well, I know Older people may not want to hear it, but he is absolutely correct. When I speak, assume that I am not referring to "All older people", but generally speaking, yes the bigotry in this country tends to reside in the 50 and older crowd. If you are Older on here and presumably Gay, don't assume that claim necessarily applies to you. But again, generally speaking, yes there are a lot more bigots and racists in the older crowd than the younger crowd.

You saw who voted against Prop 8. And the racial hostilities in this country again are clearly reside more in the 50 and older crowd as opposed to the younger generation.

Every generation has its own share of faults. Those are the faults of that particular generation. And like Lost has said, there really is no other way to change their engrained attitudes towards Race and Sexuality other than for there to be generational change. The older they get, the less relevant they become ... and will eventually die. I know that sounds morbid and it is. But since they will not change in their attitudes, that is what needs to happen in order for real change to take place in this country. This really is nothing new.

Yes, There are a lot of bigots out there.
To lay it all at the feet of the over 50- Is wrong.
In an earlier post I listed the breakdown according to Religion, Race,Age and sex.
Once you eliminate age in prop 8, 56% You would have to deal with religion, 85%.
Once you elminate Religion, You have Non whites, 57%.
To focus everything on 1 Demographic as the cause of all the ills in Society is delusional.
Just look to Hitler.
When the older generation dies out, You can bet a new generation of Homophobes will take their place, Smarter, More skilled and better organized.
I am seeing it happen here in Philadelphia with Marcavage, If you care to Google his name.

 

[iman]

These statements represent classic black-and-white thinking, and really do leave out quite a lot, iman.

Of course, but often they are the two poles. There is plenty of room in between.

 

[MystikWizard]

Yes, There are a lot of bigots out there.
To lay it all at the feet of the over 50- Is wrong.
In an earlier post I listed the breakdown according to Religion, Race,Age and sex.
Once you eliminate age in prop 8, 56% You would have to deal with religion, 85%.
Once you elminate Religion, You have Non whites, 57%.
To focus everything on 1 Demographic as the cause of all the ills in Society is delusional.
Just look to Hitler.
When the older generation dies out, You can bet a new generation of Homophobes will take their place, Smarter, More skilled and better organized.
I am seeing it happen here in Philadelphia with Marcavage, If you care to Google his name.

Just to take a look at the percentages you listed earlier ... (and if you could list your source for these findings, that would be even better)

Age does not supersede race.
Prop 8 was passed by 52% of the voters.
85% were Christians
57% were non white
56% were over 55
52% were men
Redirect your anger, and start at the top of the list.

Now, as you can clearly see, those totals do not equate to 100%. Those 85% of Christians can easily be broken down by Age and by Race.

So, once we know that, do we need to focus on the White Christians? Do we need to focus on the Black Christians? Do we need to focus on Older Christians? Do we need to focus on younger Christians?

The numbers that jump out, again assuming these numbers are accurate are:

>Obviously the 85% of the total Prop 8 supporters being Christian

> 57% of supporters were Non-White (I am very curious to see the breakdown between Blacks, Latinos, and Asians in that number)

> 56% being over 55.



When you are dealing with percentages this close in the final vote, every percent is critical to analyze. Therefore, the 56% over 55 is a cause of concern.

Anyway, if you can post your source, as I would like to look into this more before commenting any further on it.

 

[Lostlover]

So true, so true. Look, he hasn't got anything but psychosis driving his rants. He's a hater and a bigot. He repeats his inane and passive "let them die in 20, 30,or 40 years, that'll show ''em!" endlessly. Ghoul -- she's a ghoul.

Frankly, I think I've heard quite sufficient from her.

For the bolded part - passive? What do you want me to do to people that disagree with me? Hose them down? Put them in internment camps? Bomb their homes?

Haven't you learned anything from America's mistakes recently?

You sure are pretty defensive. What exactly where you doing in the 1960's?

 

[Lostlover]

Well, I know Older people may not want to hear it, but he is absolutely correct. When I speak, assume that I am not referring to "All older people", but generally speaking, yes the bigotry in this country tends to reside in the 50 and older crowd. If you are Older on here and presumably Gay, don't assume that claim necessarily applies to you. But again, generally speaking, yes there are a lot more bigots and racists in the older crowd than the younger crowd.

You saw who voted against Prop 8. And the racial hostilities in this country again are clearly reside more in the 50 and older crowd as opposed to the younger generation.

Every generation has its own share of faults. Those are the faults of that particular generation. And like Lost has said, there really is no other way to change their engrained attitudes towards Race and Sexuality other than for there to be generational change. The older they get, the less relevant they become ... and will eventually die. I know that sounds morbid and it is. But since they will not change in their attitudes, that is what needs to happen in order for real change to take place in this country. This really is nothing new.

Of course you're not speaking about all of a group. That's a pathetic trap they set to distract you from making your point.

We're aware of Jimmy Carter and other progressive older Americans that are trying to make America better.

We all saw how they booted Carter but voted for Bush twice.

Carter is the modern MLK and his peers hate him because he's peace-loving.

 

[Lostlover]

Lostlover, your posts really do seem to show an intolerant side to your nature. I suspect this has to do with your choice of words, which are a little bit too harsh in nature when you're referring to certain groups of people.

However, apropos the bolded sentence above, I really would like to hear what you have to say about Carville's book.

Well I can choose my words better but the message won't change. The message is what people don't like like Admiral Alfie.

Cries about Ventura's statement. Attacks him. Cries about mine. Attacks me.

While never addressing the issue. Find one post in here by him and tell me if he responded to the original post?

 

[MystikWizard]

Of course you're not speaking about all of a group. That's a pathetic trap they set to distract you from making your point.

We're aware of Jimmy Carter and other progressive older Americans that are trying to make America better.

I know it's a trap they try to pull. I just have to periodically re-emphasize that I'm not referring to everyone when I make generalizations like that, because posters then get mad that I'm not being PC about the topic. I just think it takes a real dumbass to actually think when I talk about voting patterns of groups, that they think I am literally referring to every single solitary member of a particular group. It simply is a whining tactic used to distract from the matter, I agree with you on that one. I just feel the need to say it before the inevitable comments start arising:

"How do you know that every Senior voted for Prop 8?"

"I can't believe you honestly think every Black and Latino voted for Prop 8!"

"You do realize that not every Christian voted for Prop 8, right?"


I mine as well make myself clear before the whining begins about how one "shouldn't stereotype".

BTW, off topic, looking at your signature with Cornette's quote in it ... I have a friend that actually knows Cornette and he and his wife Stacy are coming up for an Indy show here next month. We're going to try to arrange going out to dinner with him. I'm sure we can get him started on another political tirade like he made in that Commentary, among other things.

 

[MystikWizard]

I am combing through the numbers listed from the Exit poll which were posted on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)


Just wanted to throw a few numbers out there ....


These are some of the statistics reported:

Political Party

82% of the Republican voters voted "Yes"
46% of Independents voters voted "Yes"
36% of Democrat voters voted "Yes"




Political Ideology

85% of voters who identify with "Conservative social values" voted "Yes"




Choice for President

84% of people who voted for John McCain voted "Yes"
32% of people who voted for Barack Obama voted "No"




Race

70% of Blacks voted "Yes"
53% of Hispanics voted "Yes"
49% of Whites voted "Yes"
49% of Asians voted "Yes"

(If anyone has a different source that says otherwise about the Black vote, please pass it along)




Religion

65% of Protestants voted "Yes"
64% of Catholics voted "Yes"




Military Background

78% of voters with a Military Background voted "Yes"




Age

30-44 years- 55% of this group voted "Yes"
45-64 years- 54% of this group voted "Yes"
65 years and older- 61% of this group voted "Yes"




George Bush Approval

86% of people who approved of George Bush's job as President voted "Yes"

 

[chuck10x]

I found this article interesting.
http://kolotv.com/home/headlines/35523029.html
Singling out 1 Demographic is wrong and delusional.
Remove the older vote and prop 8 still would not have passed.
Willful blindness does not change the facts

 

[MystikWizard]

I found this article interesting.
http://kolotv.com/home/headlines/35523029.html
Singling out 1 Demographic is wrong and delusional.
Remove the older vote and prop 8 still would not have passed.
Willful blindness does not change the facts

You see, I think there are two ways of looking at this thing.



One way is to completely disregard the behaviors within each demographic and solely judge on a bottom line perspective.

For example, one may say that "70% of Blacks voted for Prop 8, BUT Black voters were only 10% of the entire vote. Therefore, we are basically going to ignore the behaviors within this entire group, since in reality, Blacks only comprised 10% of the vote."

Another example of this way of thinking is "61% of Seniors voted Yes on Prop 8, but all Seniors only represented 15% of the entire vote. Therefore, we aren't going to pay attention to them, either."





The other way of looking at it is to actually dissect behaviors INSIDE each demographic and address the problems that way.

For example, where as one may say that Blacks are only 10% of the entire vote, a person advocating holding Blacks accountable would say "that is still no excuse for 70% of the Black race voting in favor of Prop 8. This demonstrates a large amount of bigotry and homophobia (blamed on religious reasons) within this one particular community."

Another example of looking at the behaviors INSIDE the community and dissecting them would be to say "I realize that Seniors ONLY comprised 15% of the total vote, but 61% of those Seniors voted in favor of it. This also demonstrates a large amount of bigotry and homophobia (also blamed on religious reasons) within this one particular community."




Now, if we want to look at purely the bottom line in who physically got this bill passed, I did some basic multiplication based on the figures provided:


30.87% of the total "Yes" vote were White

7% of the total "Yes" vote were Black

9.54% of the total "Yes" vote were Hispanic

9.15% of the total "Yes" vote were Senior Citizens

27.95% of the total "Yes" vote were Protestant

19.2% of the total "Yes" vote were Catholic



Remove any one of those percentages from the Yes vote, and the bill would have failed. So, take your pick.






Let's look at what would have happened if we gave Blacks the exact same percentages in Favor/Against as the White Vote. The White Vote represented 63% of the entire vote. And the White vote was 49% in Favor and 51% against. (Exact same percentages as the Asian vote).

Now, common sense dictates that based on this, if Whites were 100% of the vote, then the Bill would have failed. So obviously, you have to look at the Non-Whites who were responsible for passing this bill.

Nevertheless, if Blacks who represented 10% of the total vote, were 49% in Favor and 51% against, then we would have had 4.9% of the total Yes vote coming from Blacks. That would have been a reduction of 2.1% from the total Yes Vote.


Keeping that in mind, here were the final percentages from Prop 8:

Yes- 52.24%
No- 47.76%


Subtract the 2.1% of Blacks who would have voted against it, and you would have had:


Yes- 50.14%
No- 49.86%


So, the bill would have still just barely passed.


Now, if Latinos voted based on the same Yes/No percentages as Whites, then here is what we would be looking at:


Latinos represented 18% of the total vote. 53% were in favor and 47% were against. If we changed those percentages to reflect the same percentages as Whites and Asians (which again, were 49% and 51%), then here is what we would have:


8.82% of the Total Yes vote would have come from Latinos. This would be a reduction of .72% from the total Yes vote.


Combined with the reduction in the Black vote in the scenario above, we would be looking at:


Yes- 49.42%
No- 50.58%


So, if both of these Racial groups voted in the same percentages as Whites and Asians, then the Bill would have failed. Clearly, I can understand why people are pointing the finger at both Blacks and Latinos in that regard.





As far as Age

the 18-29 year old crowd was the ONLY crowd that voted overwhelmingly "No"


39% voted "Yes" and 61% voted "No". If the other Age brackets would have voted along the lines of the 18-29 year olds, then obviously the bill would have failed.





As far as Religion, take a look at this.

People who do not identify themselves with a particular Religion comprised 10% percent of the total vote. They voted as such:

Yes- 10%
No- 90%


Again, another obvious example in what would have happened if religion wasn't in the equation.




So based on these results and really breaking down the numbers:


One could clearly accuse people of Faith in passing the Bill (duh!)
One could clearly accuse people above the age of 29 as passing the bill.
One can accuse Both Blacks and Latinos of passing the bill.


If there were any deviation in any of those 3 scenarios as outlined in each of the scenarios, the bill would have clearly failed.



If we are going by RACE and bottom line numbers according to this exit poll, Blacks AND Latinos did PASS the bill.

If we are going by AGE and bottom line numbers according to this exit poll, all Age Brackets who were 30 and above PASSED the bill.

 

[chuck10x]

Thank you for the breakdown.
As I have being trying to say, It was not just the old vote.
Blaming the old vote would not accomplish the goal of gay marriage.
Though, I see by your Post MystikWizard that 30 is the new 60.
Ever see Logan's Run?
Thanks again

 

[andysayshi]

This whole discussion was made here several weeks ago. I've quoted my post from a previous thread below.

I don't know how many Californians voted, but let's hypothesize 1,000,000 voters. Based on the statistics in the DBR poll, this is how many of those million people voted NO on proposition 8:

18-29 ... 93500
30-44 ... 109200
45-64 ... 201400
65+ ...... 75900

More than double the 45-64 year olds voted No on Prop 8 compared to 18-29 year olds.

The Gallop poll posted by Lostlover offers far less information, but if I extrapolate the voting percentiles from the DBR poll into the Gallup stats, they (roughly) end up like this with 1 million voters:

18-29 ... 100300
30-49 ... 84000
50-64 ... 140600
65+ ......73600

Percentages demonstrate trends, but actual votes are what change laws. So, regardless of which poll you prefer, in real votes in polling booths, more people around 45-64 voted to support gay marriage than any other age bracket.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264875

Based on real votes, 18-30 year olds had the power to beat Prop 8 but didn't bother to vote. More 45-64 year old Californians voted against Prop 8 than did 18-30 year olds.

So one way to support gay rights is to bitch about old people while you wait for them to die, and hope that younger generations don't become more conservative as they get older (which of course people usually do). Maybe we'll get those rights ... in 20 years or so?

Another way is to actually use your energy to rally younger people to vote, to get younger people to help in the fight for equal rights today, not in 20 years. In the process you might even sway a few older voters too.

Which option do you think has more chance of succeeding?

 

[Kulindahr]

I didn't figure the book would be too deep, and it wasn't. It was a light hearted take on things from Jesse's perspective.
. . . .

I like how he calls both the dems and the repugs on they're shit. He sees the pugs for the scum they are and the dems for the quivering punks they are..

Maybe if people took SOME of his advise and ditched both parties,we might be better off for it.

I wouldn't mind seeing him as the Libertarian candidate for president. Unfortunately, Libertarians aren't very libertarian when it comes to picking a national candidate -- they want someone polished, more than they want someone open and honest.

But the irony is, you're going to need a lot of people half your age voting to be an equal in this country. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

And if enough people half my age had been tolerant, Prop 8 wouldn't have passed.

Obviously we don't live under a "system that perpetrates oppression" since minorities have been able to access the system to an unprecedented extent during the last 40 years.

Live in a poor housing development for a while and tell us we don't live under a "system that perpetrates oppression". Oppression for non-whites, for the poor, and for anyone who isn't in the right 'image' continues, quite happily. Today we even have a new form of oppression, in political correctness.

Gay people don't face those struggles today, but then again neither do black people. It is because a whole lot of people worked hard to make it that way. Gay people support equality for black people, gay or straight, and I'm here to say the expectation is mutual.

Wake up.

But blacks don't see it that way. MLK carried a Bible, and from it drew his lessons for equality, but blacks can't see how one can carry a Bible and be for homosexuality in any form.

Of course they're basically fundamentalist on that point, even when they're into liberation theology and such.

My point is, it hurts just as badly if you are burned as a witch, or lynched for being black, or beaten up, tied to a fence and left to die for being gay. In each case it is systematic opportunism combined with hatred.

Any anyone who feels they are entitled to a greater degree of indignation because they belong to x or y such group is an idiot, and I intend to continue saying so.

The struggle for equal dignity is only one struggle, and the only equation that can be made is "civil rights" = "equal rights for gays."

Absolutely.

"We hold these truhts to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...."

I wouldn't mind having a bumper sticker, on a rainbow background, with that statement -- and a tag line that said, "What part of ALL don't you understand?" It would make a great banner in a parade, too.

 

[Kulindahr]

Don't agree at all. The older folks then hosed the blacks down. Now they've learned to use the ballot against us.

I guess the ballot is more civil than having high pressure water shot at you.

Have you ever been hit with full pressure from a fire hose?

I have, and I can tell you that the ballot is a LOT more civil than that. Fortunately for me, I wasn't very close to that pressure, just enough to feel I'd been beat up, close enough to get knocked down. If I'd been as close as some of the blacks who got hosed, I'd likely have had clothes torn off, skin flayed, even a concussion. Thankfully, a ballot doesn't put anyone in a hospital.

Everything is A-Ok, eh Iman? What's the gay equivalent to Uncle Tom? "Yessa massa, I beez a good ol' black bo'."

A Tio Taco? A Benedict Arnold?

A lot of times foreign posters come in here and ask why gays in America have to beg for things they have over there. Well, I think you have part of the answer here. Some of the older folks are happy getting the short end of the stick.

This is really pathetic.

Lost, you totally misrepresent what he said. As often before, you whine that because people are proud of the progress we've made, they must be against gay rights. All you're doing here is griping that those who came before didn't do all the work, and you might have to do some.

But as Alfie keeps asking, just what have you done? Have you dared to be out in places where that could mean getting bones broken and your vehicle smashed? Have you talked with an Evangelical who thinks you're bound for hell and disputed the assertion that being gay is a choice? Have you been to places where rednecks surround you, all holding guns, and calmly admitted you're gay? Have you stood calmly while some parent abused and attacked you verbally for being a pervert who was molesting his children merely by being at the same swimming hole -- and answered quietly with facts?

None of us are "happy getting the short end of the stick". What we are is thankful that people before us (that means older people) got us this far along the path, thankful that when others want to go gay-bashing, the law is now (mostly) on our side, thankful that the really big issues (like being locked in a psych hospital and subjected to a battery of drugs) are behind us, thankful that even though "big ticket" items keep getting beaten down small steps to progress are made steadily.