Do you agree with Jesse Ventura's statement?

[Lostlover]

Well, if our 65+ members on here feel differently against Gay Marriage then the rest of their counterparts (which is a very safe assumption), then why should they take offense to any of the things he is saying? They shouldn't.

BINGO.

I'm curious to what the older posters were doing in the 60's during the civil rights movement.

There's a whole lotta skeletons in peoples' closets here.

I can't imagine defending a group of people that are bigots even if they're my peers.

 

[NickCole]

Not a fantasy world, you stopped posting entirely for months thereafter.

And you think that had anything to do with you??

The Great Depression is not remotely comparable to overprotective yuppie parents mainly because one truly did resonate across the nation (the Great Depression), the yuppie parents thing isn't true for everyone. Most, actually.

I didn't compare the two, I offered two separate examples of common generational experience. One example was a larger public event common experience like the World Wars, Viet Nam, AIDS, social upheaval, and the other was family experience that's common. Each generation shares common experience, and although the events are experienced differently person-to-person, living daily life while those common events are happening and shaping society tends to create common elements in each generation.

I used "yuppie" as shorthand for parents of children who mostly grew up in the 80s and 90s -- an improper use of the word, sorry. Tried to come up with a fun word that wouldn't trigger your usual knee jerk response but it was a wrong choice. My bad.

Still, although it wasn't my intent in that post, I'm thinking now it's interesting to compare the common experience of the Great Depression versus the way children grew up 1980 to today in how each resonated across the nation. Because of the rapid evolution of personal and mass communication, even though the events of the past 30 years may not have been as remarkable as events like the Great Depression, these 30 years provided an especially widely shared common experience. Your generation may not have shared big historic events but it's a generation that shares incessantly. There maybe has never been a generation that shares so much over so large a geographical area. From Donahue to Oprah to cable news, from fax machines to Internet to cell phones, long distance communication has opened the shared experience from the local to the world. Even as recently as when I grew up in the 60s and early 70s, if someone called New York from California you generally heard, "it's long distance!" yelled out to whomever the call was for, and then we paid attention to how long we stayed on the phone. I wonder how many of your generation even understand what that was about. Today, in between work tasks at my desk in Connecticut I can spend all day communicating with my buddy in Germany with no more effort or cost than with my bf in the next room - that impacts the nature of common experience. Anyway ... I should be writing this paragraph to someone who understands what I'm talking about; no point in wasting this on someone who can't accept the obviousness of common experience.

Further, you weren't even alive during the Great Depression...

I wasn't alive during most generations and most world events in history. So what? My point of common experience remains valid.

so is your generation the one with yuppie parents?

No, in what I intended to convey, my generation were the yuppie parents.

 

[Kulindahr]

Spare me the PC bull, Iman. We are talking about hard, concrete data here. Nobody is making any of this up. What you need to do is "man up" and accept that we have problems in these communities that need to be addressed.


If the Youth crowd voted to the same degree that the Seniors did, they would be under the spotlight, too.

I'm addressing the problem in the "young" community because rather than deal with his own group's failure's a certain person here regulalry puts the blame for everything on "older people".

If that generation "voted to the same degree that the Seniors did", Prop 8 would have failed, and we'd all be congratulating them on their respectable, responsible turnout.

I'm curious to what the older posters were doing in the 60's during the civil rights movement.

Potty training?
Learning to read?
Starting high school?

Since your definition of "older" jumps around, it's hard to say.

I can't imagine defending a group of people that are bigots even if they're my peers.

No one's been defending bigots here. You, though, seem perfectly content to be part ofa generation that in aggregate doesn't think democracy is worth enough to bother getting off their asses and voting on a matter of tolerance -- and thus saying that whatever the outcome, it's fine with them.

 

[MystikWizard]

I'm addressing the problem in the "young" community because rather than deal with his own group's failure's a certain person here regulalry puts the blame for everything on "older people".

If that generation "voted to the same degree that the Seniors did", Prop 8 would have failed, and we'd all be congratulating them on their respectable, responsible turnout.

That was a poor choice of wording on my part as I unintentionally left out a single word. That word was "Yes".

"If young people voted "YES" to the same degree that the Seniors did, then they would be the ones who would be getting grilled at the moment. But they didn't.

You want to address more Youth getting to the polls, then fine. I just want to understand your rationale with putting more blame on them, who actually voted most favorably to the Gay Community, as opposed to the bigoted Seniors who were physically the ones that voted and cost Gays the vote.

I am curious to know if you think that changing the minds of Seniors is a lost cause?

 

[andysayshi]

You want to address more Youth getting to the polls, then fine. I just want to understand your rationale with putting more blame on them, who actually voted most favorably to the Gay Community, as opposed to the bigoted Seniors who were physically the ones that voted and cost Gays the vote.

I've not seen anyone say that younger voters are MORE to blame. The point is that constantly berating one age group ignores other obvious factors in the vote.

Let's do a final breakdown based on DBR stats:

According to US Census (2006 most recent figures available) there are 5,400,000 Californians aged 18-29, and 3,595,000 Californians aged 65 and over.

13,743,177 votes were lodged on Prop 8.

17% of voters were aged 18-29: 2,336,340
23% of voters were aged 65+ : 3,160,930

In age 18-29, 1,284,987 voted NO (55%), 1,051,353 voted YES (45%), and 3,063,660 didn't vote. 43% of the age group voted.

In age 65+, 1,043,106 voted NO (33%), 2,117,823 voted YES (67%), and 434,070 didn't vote. 87% of the age group voted.

That's right - the number of 18-29 year olds who didn't vote at all is over 1 million higher than the number of seniors who voted YES. The number of 18-29 yo's who didn't vote (3.06M) is almost equal to the total number of senior voters (3.16M)

While 2.1M seniors voted against us, 4.1M 18-29yo's either voted against us or didn't vote at all. The youth vote easily had the power to offer the 650,000 votes needed to overturn Prop 8, they just didn't turn up.
If less than half of the missing youth vote had shown up, the target would be easily reached.

But I don't see anyone starting threads berating Californian youth for ignoring gay rights. I just see multiple threads each month berating old people, despite the fact that over a million Californian seniors voted NO on Prop 8.

 

[Lostlover]

I'm not old enough to answer LL's question.

In 1969, I was in first grade.

I don't remember you getting all defensive.

The ones getting all antsy are the ones with something in their pasts to hide.

 

[andysayshi]

^ Huh???

 

[andysayshi]

Just to further clarify my post from yesterday here's a graph!

Clearly, the largest group within the two age demographics is 18-29yo non-voters.

 

[Lostlover]

I was merely answering the question that was asked—passing along information, as it were...

I think I might have misunderstood the point.

Cool. ....

 

[Centexfarmer]

Cool. ....

Of course I don't think anyone expected you to respond to this post:

I've not seen anyone say that younger voters are MORE to blame. The point is that constantly berating one age group ignores other obvious factors in the vote.

Let's do a final breakdown based on DBR stats:

According to US Census (2006 most recent figures available) there are 5,400,000 Californians aged 18-29, and 3,595,000 Californians aged 65 and over.

13,743,177 votes were lodged on Prop 8.

17% of voters were aged 18-29: 2,336,340
23% of voters were aged 65+ : 3,160,930

In age 18-29, 1,284,987 voted NO (55%), 1,051,353 voted YES (45%), and 3,063,660 didn't vote. 43% of the age group voted.

In age 65+, 1,043,106 voted NO (33%), 2,117,823 voted YES (67%), and 434,070 didn't vote. 87% of the age group voted.

That's right - the number of 18-29 year olds who didn't vote at all is over 1 million higher than the number of seniors who voted YES. The number of 18-29 yo's who didn't vote (3.06M) is almost equal to the total number of senior voters (3.16M)

While 2.1M seniors voted against us, 4.1M 18-29yo's either voted against us or didn't vote at all. The youth vote easily had the power to offer the 650,000 votes needed to overturn Prop 8, they just didn't turn up.
If less than half of the missing youth vote had shown up, the target would be easily reached.

But I don't see anyone starting threads berating Californian youth for ignoring gay rights. I just see multiple threads each month berating old people, despite the fact that over a million Californian seniors voted NO on Prop 8.

If your "age group" was really so much better than those within the same age group that you demographically chastise, why don't they vote in the same margins as those of us who "haven't done anything," or who are too stupid, ignorant, or "old" to know what's good for the rest of us?

 

[Lostlover]

Of course I don't think anyone expected you to respond to this post:



If your "age group" was really so much better than those within the same age group that you demographically chastise, why don't they vote in the same margins as those of us who "haven't done anything," or who are too stupid, ignorant, or "old" to know what's good for the rest of us?

I don't respond to spammers which is why I didn't answer it.

I find it funny that you'd want people fresh out of high school to vote in the same percentages as people who've been voting all their lives.

That's really reaching and you know it.

I filed taxes last year for the first time. I can imagine most people who haven't filed taxes not really giving a shit about what the government does. I still don't believe a lot of policies impact me and I follow politics.

You're reaching just like Colonel Alfie. When he talked about some 10 year old saying something homophobic towards him. I'm not talking about 10 year olds. I'm talking about people old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

That's why my argument stands today so strongly. That's why Kuli has to dissect my words. That's why Alfie has to attack me personally. The truth hurts.

You [STRIKE]can't[/STRIKE] shouldn't excuse bigotry from older people. Jesse Ventura and James Carville (who I'm reading now) are a part of this generation and they've filleted their peers for their nonsense. The last thing I would expect is for gay men to defend these bigots.

This whole argument that the younger people didn't vote enough to offset the older peoples' votes is the same bullshit excuse some pathetic men believe about women who wear revealing clothing at work. I guess it's the woman's fault for wearing revealing clothes?

Put the blame on the people who voted in bigotry.

Stop making excuses for these people. They don't like you.

By the way guys, Kuli, Colonel Alfie and the others here... if you talk about twenty something year old Neo-Nazis, I won't run to their defense. I don't like them and I have nothing in common with them. You won't hear a peep out of me.

 

[andysayshi]

I don't respond to spammers which is why I didn't answer it.

Facts and figures is spamming?

Stop making excuses for these people.

Excuses? You mean like this:

I filed taxes last year for the first time. I can imagine most people who haven't filed taxes not really giving a shit about what the government does. I still don't believe a lot of policies impact me and I follow politics.

But in your own words about 18-29 year olds:

I'm talking about people old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

And yet, despite knowing right from wrong, the majority of them didn't bother turning up to a polling booth. 3 million of them.

Nobody is defending the 2 million older voters who voted Yes. But they are disputing your constant defamation of a generation, when the blame for Prop 8's loss can easily be shared by all.

 

[Kulindahr]

You want to address more Youth getting to the polls, then fine. I just want to understand your rationale with putting more blame on them, who actually voted most favorably to the Gay Community, as opposed to the bigoted Seniors who were physically the ones that voted and cost Gays the vote.

I am curious to know if you think that changing the minds of Seniors is a lost cause?

I put the blame on them because if they'd actually turned out and voted as responsible citizens ought to, Prop 8 would have gone down in flames -- and we wouldn't be heaaring more whining about how horrid older people are.

The ones getting all antsy are the ones with something in their pasts to hide.

I guess you think that standing up for our rights is something people ought to hide, since those of us who are "older" are the ones who have done so.

And you still haven't told us one single thing you've done for gay rights!

I don't respond to spammers which is why I didn't answer it.

Oh, nice -- when you post facts and figures, and others acknowledge them, but you keep on insisting we didn't, that's okay, but when someone posts facts and figures that make a solid point you ought to acknowledge, it's spam?

Fascinating how the bigoted mind finds ways to make excuses for anything!

I find it funny that you'd want people fresh out of high school to vote in the same percentages as people who've been voting all their lives.

Really?
Teens totally look forward to driving; most look forward to drinking legally. Yet you want us to believe that we shouldn't expect them to eagerly embrace the fundamental participation in the political life of the country?

I'd expect that people who have been voting for a long time would get disillusioned, given how we vote over and over and government just keeps getting more oppressive and less personal; those who are new to the game should be the ones turning out in droves.
But want to know why those seniors vote in such numbers? Because they started doing it when they were first eligible, and held to it. Those who don't develop the habit at first aren't likely to change. Seniors have been "voting all their lives", because they started off that way -- so odds are that your newbie voters who didn't, won't... for all their lives.

That's why my argument stands today so strongly.

Your argument doesn't stand at all!
You're blaming an entire generation when the failure is in yours -- as the figures in that "spam" show: your generation couldn't be bothered to vote! The issue was theirs to lose, and they did that very well.

You [STRIKE]can't[/STRIKE] shouldn't excuse bigotry from older people. Jesse Ventura and James Carville (who I'm reading now) are a part of this generation and they've filleted their peers for their nonsense. The last thing I would expect is for gay men to defend these bigots.

Nor should we excuse lazy-assed apathy from younger people. You think younger people are the future of this country, and all you have to do is what for the older people to die off, but apathy is as great a danger as bigotry. Just think, if your generation had turned out to vote on Prop 8, you wouldn't have to be morbidly waiting for the older folks to die off, because all the bigots of all ages would have been outvoted!

This whole argument that the younger people didn't vote enough to offset the older peoples' votes is the same bullshit excuse some pathetic men believe about women who wear revealing clothing at work. I guess it's the woman's fault for wearing revealing clothes?

Put the blame on the people who voted in bigotry.

If there's a battle and a few million soldiers just decide not to participate, who do you blame for the defeat? the enemy?

No, you blame the jerk-offs who didn't show up and do their duty!

Stop making excuses for these people. They don't like you.

Stop making up these non-issues as a dodge.

 

[andysayshi]

Hey Centex - the quote in your siggy is particularly poignant in this thread:

If large numbers of People are interested in Freedom of Speech, there will be Freedom of Speech, even if the law forbids it; If Public Opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them. ~George Orwell

 

[Lostlover]

Midnight and Jockboy! We didn't vote in large enough numbers to outnumber Kuli's peers voting!

 

[andysayshi]

This thread is gettin' kinda old but I thought it might be nice to resolve it on a positive note.

Here's a suggestion for a different way to discuss age and voting trends on gay marriage:


Well, Proposition 8 managed to squeeze it's way into law, but there is good news to be had! Firstly, it only won by 2.5 percent! Just 260,000 more NO votes would have got us over the finish line. We are so close.

Secondly, a big congratulations to the ONE MILLION voters over 65 years old who voted in support of our cause. Despite growing up in a time when gay causes were unknown or frowned upon, one million of you have voted to recognize the rights of your fellow citizens - thank you!

We have work to do, of course. Twice as many over-65's voted against us, and we need to address ways to win their votes. To our fellow JUBbers in that demographic, can you suggest ways to win the hearts and minds of your generation?

The work doesn't stop there. Less than half the under-30 demographic made it to a voting booth in California, and I beg you all to talk to your family and friends to fix this - the younger vote can easily swing the 2.5% needed if they can be motivated to turn out on polling day.

Losing Prop 8 is a body blow, but one battle doesn't win a war. We are close, and unity amongst us all will help us win next time, in other States and one day in California. Again, thankyou for all your NO votes, everybody!

 

[Lostlover]

I put the blame on them because if they'd actually turned out and voted as responsible citizens ought to, Prop 8 would have gone down in flames -- and we wouldn't be heaaring more whining about how horrid older people are.



I guess you think that standing up for our rights is something people ought to hide, since those of us who are "older" are the ones who have done so.

And you still haven't told us one single thing you've done for gay rights!



Oh, nice -- when you post facts and figures, and others acknowledge them, but you keep on insisting we didn't, that's okay, but when someone posts facts and figures that make a solid point you ought to acknowledge, it's spam?

Fascinating how the bigoted mind finds ways to make excuses for anything!



Really?
Teens totally look forward to driving; most look forward to drinking legally. Yet you want us to believe that we shouldn't expect them to eagerly embrace the fundamental participation in the political life of the country?

I'd expect that people who have been voting for a long time would get disillusioned, given how we vote over and over and government just keeps getting more oppressive and less personal; those who are new to the game should be the ones turning out in droves.
But want to know why those seniors vote in such numbers? Because they started doing it when they were first eligible, and held to it. Those who don't develop the habit at first aren't likely to change. Seniors have been "voting all their lives", because they started off that way -- so odds are that your newbie voters who didn't, won't... for all their lives.






Your argument doesn't stand at all!
You're blaming an entire generation when the failure is in yours -- as the figures in that "spam" show: your generation couldn't be bothered to vote! The issue was theirs to lose, and they did that very well.



Nor should we excuse lazy-assed apathy from younger people. You think younger people are the future of this country, and all you have to do is what for the older people to die off, but apathy is as great a danger as bigotry. Just think, if your generation had turned out to vote on Prop 8, you wouldn't have to be morbidly waiting for the older folks to die off, because all the bigots of all ages would have been outvoted!



If there's a battle and a few million soldiers just decide not to participate, who do you blame for the defeat? the enemy?

No, you blame the jerk-offs who didn't show up and do their duty!



Stop making up these non-issues as a dodge.

Will ya say something about 20 something year old Neo-Nazis? See if you can get a rise outta me?

I'm not a Neo-Nazi so I can't take offense to what you say. Now if I shared some of their views, maybe.

 

[Kulindahr]

Will ya say something about 20 something year old Neo-Nazis? See if you can get a rise outta me?

I'm not a Neo-Nazi so I can't take offense to what you say. Now if I shared some of their views, maybe.

How about you actually discuss the topic and the issues, instead of jumping off into totally irrelevant crap?

Andy's example is one you could learn a lot from: it actually addresses the problems, and calls for ideas for progress.

Which reminds me -- just what have you done to help gay rights?

 

[Centexfarmer]

How about you actually discuss the topic and the issues, instead of jumping off into totally irrelevant crap?

Andy's example is one you could learn a lot from: it actually addresses the problems, and calls for ideas for progress.

Which reminds me -- just what have you done to help gay rights?

This thread is gettin' kinda old but I thought it might be nice to resolve it on a positive note.

Here's a suggestion for a different way to discuss age and voting trends on gay marriage:


Well, Proposition 8 managed to squeeze it's way into law, but there is good news to be had! Firstly, it only won by 2.5 percent! Just 260,000 more NO votes would have got us over the finish line. We are so close.

Secondly, a big congratulations to the ONE MILLION voters over 65 years old who voted in support of our cause. Despite growing up in a time when gay causes were unknown or frowned upon, one million of you have voted to recognize the rights of your fellow citizens - thank you!

We have work to do, of course. Twice as many over-65's voted against us, and we need to address ways to win their votes. To our fellow JUBbers in that demographic, can you suggest ways to win the hearts and minds of your generation?

The work doesn't stop there. Less than half the under-30 demographic made it to a voting booth in California, and I beg you all to talk to your family and friends to fix this - the younger vote can easily swing the 2.5% needed if they can be motivated to turn out on polling day.

Losing Prop 8 is a body blow, but one battle doesn't win a war. We are close, and unity amongst us all will help us win next time, in other States and one day in California. Again, thankyou for all your NO votes, everybody!

Here Kulindahr, let me help you out with that:

Someone said, "BLOW!"










It's interesting how no one in this thread has pointed out the difference between "age" and "maturity."

 

[Lostlover]

How about you actually discuss the topic and the issues, instead of jumping off into totally irrelevant crap?

Andy's example is one you could learn a lot from: it actually addresses the problems, and calls for ideas for progress.

Which reminds me -- just what have you done to help gay rights?

It's not irrelevant.

You defend your peers who (as a voting bloc) are bigots. And I said if my peers were Neo-Nazis, I wouldn't give a damn if you criticized them.

It's actually related.

I would only defend Neo-Nazis if I was ashamed of what my peers did or if I believe in racism or anti-antisemitism.