Do you believe in God ?

[Tantric-Master]

I think Tantric-Master has raised a good point about the question "how did we get where we are now?" Yes, science has answered a lot of the what, with the Big Bang, and biological evolution once the earth had been established. I think in simple terms, the question can be illustrated by being a passenger on a train going through a large railroad yard in which there are multiple tracks. The passenger may look out and ask the question "Why am I on this track, and not any of the others?" Contrary to what TX-Beau has said, I do not believe that you have to have had extensive previous religious instruction to ask that question. Applying that analogy to the larger question of "how did we get to where we are now?" we can look at the Big Bang and its setting up the physical laws of the universe, and the formation of galaxies and stars, the formation of the earth, the emergence of single-celled organisms from the primordial soup, the evolution into multicellular organisms, from fish to amphibians to reptiles to mammals, and finally the emergence of humans, we can say "science has explained all this-- that's all we need to know." Or we can ask, "OK, the What has been explained to us, but not the how and why? How did we end up with this particular set of physical laws? How did this particular solar system and earth form? How did this particular earth just happen to fall within the "Goldilocks zone?" How did humans evolve the way we did, and not as something completely different? The question becomes especially pertinent when we realize that at every step there were an infinite number of possibilities, which if ANY ONE were different, we simply could not exist. We're in effect asking how did we end up on this particular track, the only one which would allow up to be here, and be aware that we are here. How did we end up "winning the lottery" in which there were infinite upon infinite possibilities, in which there are infinite ways that would eliminate the possibility of being here?

First of all, I want to say that I agree COMPLETELY with your statement that "I do not believe that you have to have had extensive previous religious instruction to ask that question". As a matter of fact, I will go one step further and say that, in many cases, religious beliefs in scriptures being the "unadulterated word of God" can actually hinder significantly an objective investigation directed towards answering the questions that we are now discussing.

My suggestion is to proceed slowly now in this public forum regarding the question "how did we get where we are now?" I will submit a personal life experience which I consider relevant to this discussion and then, using the Hermetic "as above, so below" Principle, proceed even further as this is obviously a very deep subject where a step-by-step investigative approach seems advisable in this forum.

As previously mentioned in this thread, I had a mind-boggling, life-transforming near death experience (NDE) many years ago. I emerged COMPLETELY SYMPTOM-FREE from a 3-day "irreversible coma" with a clear recollection of all that had transpired. The doctors had said that, in the unlikely event of survival, there would be severe brain/organ damage. In that state, there was an indescribable peace ... the proverbial "peace that surpasseth all understanding" that lies beyond time and space. I was perfectly content to stay there. However, my attention was somehow directed "downward" where I saw a vast panorama of activity both within the hospital and beyond the hospital. Thoughts started to arise. (That is my body. That is my mother. That is my brother and sister in the hallway, and so on.) Emotions started to arise. (That is my mother crying, "Don't die". ) My life force was drawn to the unfolding scene and I was consciously aware of my life force descending towards the body after which I say up completely alert and said, "I'm hungry and I want to go home". The doctors were shocked as I was completely symptom-free. What had happened was so alien to my Roman Catholic upbringing that I started a life-long quest to understand what had happened. I was, however, very aware that there is a vantage point from which one realizes with complete certainty that everything is interconnected.

My investigation led me to meditation to discover the way back to that "peace that surpasseth all understanding". I gravitated towards certain meditation techniques that started with the body, proceeded to the emotions, then to the underlying thoughts of various subtleties, and then to that "peace that surpasseth all understanding" that lies beyond thoughts. It was the process of returning step-by-step to that indescribable state. During that ongoing meditative process, answers to questions being raised here were addressed and continue to be addressed regarding "how" and "why" I was back here in the body ... as per this very limited example which can serve well as a starting point for further discussion.

The psychologist Carl Jung empirically discovered that vantage point and called it the "collective unconscious" since many are unaware of that perspective (which can be reached in meditation). The biologist Rupert Sheldrake has some interesting theories on morphogenetic fields. There's a lot of interesting stuff pointing to subtler levels of consciousness.

Lastly, while I don't want this to become a discussion on Einstein, TX-Beau had mentioned something about Einstein's beliefs regarding the afterlife. Actually, Einstein's comments were quite intriguing. Although he definitely didn't believe in a "personal God" (the proverbial "man in the sky"), his comments on the afterlife were actually quite profound and that can become part of this discussion. "But there is only one true immortality, on a cosmic scale, and that is the immortality of the cosmos itself. There is no other." This corresponds to the "Echad" (there is ultimately no plurality) in Kabbalistic Judaism, Brahman in Hinduism, and various other understandings in the various wisdom traditions of the world. As I mentioned, Buddha maintained the Noble Silence when asked metaphysical questions about the afterlife and so on.

What Did Einstein Believe About Immortality and Life After Death?

Einstein on life after death? He wrote: 'Immortality? There are two kinds. The first lives in the imagination of the people, and is thus an illusion.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[Tantric-Master]

OK, and I fundamentally disagree that whatever "dead end" you were at is relevant beyond your personal context. You had the experiences you had, and I appreciate that you found them profound, but that doesn't mean any of the factors that caused you to have that experience are a common baseline for anyone else. You were never "just like me" or anyone else. You have always been you.

The path you took to get where you are is not something that's ever going to be repeated in my existence, and once again it's paternalistic and dismissive to say something that comes across as "I was just like you, but then I knew better."

I am not at a dead "end," I am not an absolutist, if there is some reasonable reason in my own context to believe in metaphysics certainly, I'll consider it. So far, there has been nothing. Whether or not there is some kind of metaphysical universe is the first question in religion, (see below) it has to be because everything that follows is absolutely conditional on that answer. That answer will end the pretensions to the "truth" of a huge amount of religious humanity.

When someone approaches me with an assertion of living dead and virgin birth, I'm not just going to believe it without something more. It doesn't matter what happened to that guy on the road to Damascus. Some other guy claimed something that contradicts him on the road to Mecca. Whose epiphany is real? Both are absolutely sincere; both are wanting to share something they found profound; BUT, they can't both be right. That's before you get to the people using religion for a far less noble purpose.


"Religion" - Once again, we see the absolute necessity of common nomenclature. Religion as I'm using the term groups all forms of metaphysics together for the sake of brevity, as the distinctions between orthodox Jews and Wicca New Agers are not important to this discussion.

You are correct that one must be wary of the subjective elements in such investigations. What drew me to my spiritual guide was her opening statement when I met her. "Question everything, even what I say, and, if a teacher can't point you to the direct experiences, then go elsewhere". Once one has direct verifiable experiences, one's understanding becomes unshakable despite the skeptics.

When there is a commonality of direct experiences across the various wisdom/mystical/scientific/psychological traditions, then it seems appropriate to delve deeper into those common direct experiences albeit colored by personal belief systems. This is an intriguing process.

William James once wrote a book called "Varieties of Religious Experiences" in which the experiences across traditions were very similar but colored somewhat by religious beliefs. For examples, Christians would have visions of Jesus while Hindus might have visions of Krishna or Ram but the essence of the experiences/revelations was often very similar. Your questions and skepticism regarding subjectivity are very very valid and understandable.

 

[Tantric-Master]

OK, and I fundamentally disagree that whatever "dead end" you were at is relevant beyond your personal context. You had the experiences you had, and I appreciate that you found them profound, but that doesn't mean any of the factors that caused you to have that experience are a common baseline for anyone else. You were never "just like me" or anyone else. You have always been you.

The path you took to get where you are is not something that's ever going to be repeated in my existence, and once again it's paternalistic and dismissive to say something that comes across as "I was just like you, but then I knew better."

I am not at a dead "end," I am not an absolutist, if there is some reasonable reason in my own context to believe in metaphysics certainly, I'll consider it. So far, there has been nothing. Whether or not there is some kind of metaphysical universe is the first question in religion, (see below) it has to be because everything that follows is absolutely conditional on that answer. That answer will end the pretensions to the "truth" of a huge amount of religious humanity.

When someone approaches me with an assertion of living dead and virgin birth, I'm not just going to believe it without something more. It doesn't matter what happened to that guy on the road to Damascus. Some other guy claimed something that contradicts him on the road to Mecca. Whose epiphany is real? Both are absolutely sincere; both are wanting to share something they found profound; BUT, they can't both be right. That's before you get to the people using religion for a far less noble purpose.


"Religion" - Once again, we see the absolute necessity of common nomenclature. Religion as I'm using the term groups all forms of metaphysics together for the sake of brevity, as the distinctions between orthodox Jews and Wicca New Agers are not important to this discussion.

P.S. I'm sorry that you took umbrage at my comment that "I've been there". I can understand your reaction. After my Roman Catholic upbringing with an "infallible" Pope who couldn't be questioned, I too became very skeptical of teachings/statements that I could not directly validate for myself. That's precisely why I sought out guides who could point me to the direct experiences so that I could see for myself and not just rely on their say-so. Your point is very valid.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

I believe that asking religious (see above) questions is a moot exercise until you know which religion is accurate. Otherwise, one is just debating the reasons Superman can fly - only someone is going to start a war over it.

Oh, hon ... Someone would start a war over something else if it weren't religion. We're half chimpanzee, and that's what they do. And it's what we do.

(Our other half is bonobo, and they'd fuck or jerk off instead.)

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh, hon ... Someone would start a war over something else if it weren't religion. We're half chimpanzee, and that's what they do. And it's what we do.

(Our other half is bonobo, and they'd fuck or jerk off instead.)

That isn't the point. Someone is definitely going to steal something tomorrow, is it logical to refuse to try and stop theft? We should also be questioning every other cause for war that exists.

 

[Tantric-Master]

Oh, hon ... Someone would start a war over something else if it weren't religion. We're half chimpanzee, and that's what they do. And it's what we do.

(Our other half is bonobo, and they'd fuck or jerk off instead.)

Even if your post wasn't directed towards me, I enjoyed reading it. You have a cool sense of humor.

 

[mark88]

Absolutely not, we evolved over millions of years from microbes and dirt, the idea that a man in the sky with a long beard created it all is absolutely laughable

 

[Kulindahr]

the idea that a man in the sky with a long beard

I'd say that the number of people who believe in that deity number close to zero.

But that illustrates a big problem with the question here: when someone says "God", there are many different ideas for what the word means.

 

[cityboy-stl]

I'd say that the number of people who believe in that deity number close to zero.

But that illustrates a big problem with the question here: when someone says "God", there are many different ideas for what the word means.

Which is exactly the problem. Why are there so many different ideas for God?

If there is a real God, cut out all the hocus pocus, the contradictions, the confusing uncertainties, the conflicting actions by supposedly the same God. Cut out all the guessing games, the analogies and parables, and all the bullshit.

If there is a real God...then BE real for once, and show the fuck up. Because...you know...we could really use your help!

 

[mark88]

Which is exactly the problem. Why are there so many different ideas for God?

If there is a real God, cut out all the hocus pocus, the contradictions, the confusing uncertainties, the conflicting actions by supposedly the same God. Cut out all the guessing games, the analogies and parables, and all the bullshit.

If there is a real God...then BE real for once, and show the fuck up. Because...you know...we could really use your help!

There’s so many because all the different countries/cultures etc each invented their own to try to explain and make sense of life and why we are here

Since then science has done a pretty good job of explaining things so best we go with that

 

[Rickrock]

I know that there is life after death. If there is life after death then I believe that there has to be a God. That doesn't explain what life after death is like nor what God is like. Some of my relatives have seen people who are dead in unexplained circumstances. People have seen ghosts throughout history and people who were clinically dead have been revived and can explain what happened while they were dead. There are too many eye witnesses to not believe that there is something there and some sort of life after our death.

The Bible says that God said let there be light. God then continued his creation. Science says that God created light with the Big Bang Theory, which would create light. Science says that God continued his creation using the tools of evolution and Mother Nature. The Bible says that first God made fishes, then birds in the air and then land animals. I believe that science now says that there were fishes, then birds in the air, and then land animals in the same order as the Bible. Science is proving the Bible correct and the Bible is proving that science is moving in the right direction.

I picture God as being an ever expanding energy force for good.

 

[Rickrock]

^ Our ancestors described God in terms that they understood, but it it the same thing.

 

[Rickrock]

A man with a long beard and an energy force for good are both father figures. ( I keep thinking of things I should have said with the first post. )

 

[Jacquemar]

I, once an atheist, have now adopted Valentinian Mysticism. Yes, I believe in something that might be called "God".

 

[newspaper_love]

I would like to think there is a plan, a meaning ... but looking at it with my science head, we are so small, not even a speck in the universe . 1 in a billion planets just in our galaxy .. and there are billions of galaxies... for all we know there are billions of universes... i would like to think there is a plan, a meaning ... but I fear not

 

[MSG_Otter.w/Ardour]

I, once an atheist, have now adopted Valentinian Mysticism. Yes, I believe in something that might be called "God".

can I inquire: What brought about the change of mind/heart??

 

[MSG_Otter.w/Ardour]

I believe in "GOD" as a POWER that is Universal.
My belief has transitioned, transformed, been deconstructed and rebuilt. AND it has not always been easy... no one learned ever claimed it would be, right?
I had a moderately-influenced religious indoctrination. "Christian" family, strongly influenced by maternal side. Mom took my brother and I to bible school and services; Dad would sometimes come, but wasn't a 'big deal" if he didn't (and that was the pattern from my Maternal Grandmother that I learned; Grandpa on Mom's side didn't go to Church with us when we visited, but he said 'Grace' at every dinner.
About when I was 8yrs old, asked if I could stop having to go to bible school with my peers/age group because I had noticed that the kids in my class 'acted different at Church' from when they were not. I later understood that to be the hypocrisy I would come to associate with "Christianity" for Years.
When I was in High School I developed a nasty crush on this guy from a Christian fundamentalist family that led to Metanoia/Exodus (Pray the gay away) conversion therapy. I was bit messed up by it all, and almost brought my life to an end.
I wasn't successful, thankfully, and from there I started my personal, spiritual journey (still on it).
I am eclectic with my personal views. I try with degrees of success to see other perspectives. I read some too. Listen to an occasional Podcast.
I really like Joe Dispenza's research and what is being accomplished/discovered/learned with that modality. I have listened and read Dr. David Hawkins, A Course in Miracles (and lecture groups discussing ACIM)
I enjoy the perspective of folks like Louise Hay, Wayne Dryer, Marianne Williamson, Gregg Braden to name a few. I've read "new thought" authors from early 20th century (1920's...) and wondered why so many of us; we still struggle with our thinking and attitudes, We do not have the 'knack' of maintaining alignment with various ideals (who's ideal anyway??)
I attempt to live my principles, and I try to Not be an antagonist with varied ideas and perspectives.
It is really one of the things I was seeking here among the JUB Community. I want to be given different perspectives, and I want to question to learn, not to correct. I believe that there is really more to all of this than we are aware, and I believe we have the potential to know and understand more than we do. I think about the multi-dimensional views. I think/feel/believe that socially we need to divest ourselves of our Ego and learn to listen better and observe, operate from a place of Love and Acceptance. Ultimately, I think it an individual, personal journey for EVERY person. I like to entertain that when this life ends and I again am an energetic signature (or some-such) that I will have a proverbial face palm moment and achieve an understanding of a bigger picture.
Enjoy the read...
I would appreciate feedback...

 

[TX-Beau]

I believe in "GOD" as a POWER that is Universal.
My belief has transitioned, transformed, been deconstructed and rebuilt. AND it has not always been easy... no one learned ever claimed it would be, right?
I had a moderately-influenced religious indoctrination. "Christian" family, strongly influenced by maternal side. Mom took my brother and I to bible school and services; Dad would sometimes come, but wasn't a 'big deal" if he didn't (and that was the pattern from my Maternal Grandmother that I learned; Grandpa on Mom's side didn't go to Church with us when we visited, but he said 'Grace' at every dinner.
About when I was 8yrs old, asked if I could stop having to go to bible school with my peers/age group because I had noticed that the kids in my class 'acted different at Church' from when they were not. I later understood that to be the hypocrisy I would come to associate with "Christianity" for Years.
When I was in High School I developed a nasty crush on this guy from a Christian fundamentalist family that led to Metanoia/Exodus (Pray the gay away) conversion therapy. I was bit messed up by it all, and almost brought my life to an end.
I wasn't successful, thankfully, and from there I started my personal, spiritual journey (still on it).
I am eclectic with my personal views. I try with degrees of success to see other perspectives. I read some too. Listen to an occasional Podcast.
I really like Joe Dispenza's research and what is being accomplished/discovered/learned with that modality. I have listened and read Dr. David Hawkins, A Course in Miracles (and lecture groups discussing ACIM)
I enjoy the perspective of folks like Louise Hay, Wayne Dryer, Marianne Williamson, Gregg Braden to name a few. I've read "new thought" authors from early 20th century (1920's...) and wondered why so many of us; we still struggle with our thinking and attitudes, We do not have the 'knack' of maintaining alignment with various ideals (who's ideal anyway??)
I attempt to live my principles, and I try to Not be an antagonist with varied ideas and perspectives.
It is really one of the things I was seeking here among the JUB Community. I want to be given different perspectives, and I want to question to learn, not to correct. I believe that there is really more to all of this than we are aware, and I believe we have the potential to know and understand more than we do. I think about the multi-dimensional views. I think/feel/believe that socially we need to divest ourselves of our Ego and learn to listen better and observe, operate from a place of Love and Acceptance. Ultimately, I think it an individual, personal journey for EVERY person. I like to entertain that when this life ends and I again am an energetic signature (or some-such) that I will have a proverbial face palm moment and achieve an understanding of a bigger picture.
Enjoy the read...
I would appreciate feedback...

The human experience is replete with spiritualism. For me, at least, the problems start when that evolves into a formal doctrine. I also think that we get taught in places like bible school to close off other perspectives. No one is born a Christian, Hindu, or anything else, but that's not what we teach children usually. Once a person is invested in a formal religion, it's almost impossible to reverse course.

I also think that some people are born with the disposition to be open thinkers; some are not and are pre-disposed to prefer the safety of a universe where the answers are mapped out for them. This isn't a function of intelligence, just genetics and stimulus. I think how people value abstracts like happiness or grace and what priority that gets in a person's life is also variable, based on the same factors. Everyone says they want to be happy, but how many people are actively pursuing that goal as opposed to wealth, or science, or anything else?

In general, people are genetically inclined to one camp or the other, and the context in which they grow will determine how they feel about spiritualism, as opposed to doctrine and dogma or atheism. I myself always get accused of being an atheist, which is just not the case. I played with atheism, but in the end, it has the same absolutist logical pitfalls that doctrine does. It's reactionary and dependent on beliefs in gods since, without that, it has no reason to exist. The point is, how much was my individual brain influenced by me growing up as a Southern Baptist, and how much of my reaction to religion comes from being gay? Roll that up, and like everything else human, you get idiosyncratic individuals in all of us, and I don't see how any one faith or doctrine will serve everyone. None of them are right, because we are all different.

 

[Araucaria]

I believe in "GOD" as a POWER that is Universal.
My belief has transitioned, transformed, been deconstructed and rebuilt. AND it has not always been easy... no one learned ever claimed it would be, right?
I had a moderately-influenced religious indoctrination. "Christian" family, strongly influenced by maternal side. Mom took my brother and I to bible school and services; Dad would sometimes come, but wasn't a 'big deal" if he didn't (and that was the pattern from my Maternal Grandmother that I learned; Grandpa on Mom's side didn't go to Church with us when we visited, but he said 'Grace' at every dinner.
About when I was 8yrs old, asked if I could stop having to go to bible school with my peers/age group because I had noticed that the kids in my class 'acted different at Church' from when they were not. I later understood that to be the hypocrisy I would come to associate with "Christianity" for Years.
When I was in High School I developed a nasty crush on this guy from a Christian fundamentalist family that led to Metanoia/Exodus (Pray the gay away) conversion therapy. I was bit messed up by it all, and almost brought my life to an end.
I wasn't successful, thankfully, and from there I started my personal, spiritual journey (still on it).
I am eclectic with my personal views. I try with degrees of success to see other perspectives. I read some too. Listen to an occasional Podcast.
I really like Joe Dispenza's research and what is being accomplished/discovered/learned with that modality. I have listened and read Dr. David Hawkins, A Course in Miracles (and lecture groups discussing ACIM)
I enjoy the perspective of folks like Louise Hay, Wayne Dryer, Marianne Williamson, Gregg Braden to name a few. I've read "new thought" authors from early 20th century (1920's...) and wondered why so many of us; we still struggle with our thinking and attitudes, We do not have the 'knack' of maintaining alignment with various ideals (who's ideal anyway??)
I attempt to live my principles, and I try to Not be an antagonist with varied ideas and perspectives.
It is really one of the things I was seeking here among the JUB Community. I want to be given different perspectives, and I want to question to learn, not to correct. I believe that there is really more to all of this than we are aware, and I believe we have the potential to know and understand more than we do. I think about the multi-dimensional views. I think/feel/believe that socially we need to divest ourselves of our Ego and learn to listen better and observe, operate from a place of Love and Acceptance. Ultimately, I think it an individual, personal journey for EVERY person. I like to entertain that when this life ends and I again am an energetic signature (or some-such) that I will have a proverbial face palm moment and achieve an understanding of a bigger picture.
Enjoy the read...
I would appreciate feedback...

First, I'm glad to hear that you narrowly escaped from the conversion therapy trap (and suicide attempt?). You indeed paid a high price to find out what a soul-destroying crock of shit it is. Be happy that you were able to walk away from it.

Those of us in the LGBTQ+ community cannot afford to take in religion uncritically, as it seems to have come to embody all of society's homophobia, if indeed it is not the cause of it. I too was raised in an evangelical/fundamentalist background, so I'm familiar with all the dangers that lurk for us there. Fortunately for me, I did some reading as a teen that helped me see that there was nothing wrong with me, that the problem was with religion. At least that inoculated me from some of the worst effects of religious indoctrination, although I was stuck in a homophobic environment which extended way past religion, that made it impossible for me to come out.

From reading your responses in Just Us Boys, and not just this post, you seem to be very inquisitive, questioning everything, almost like a curious child. That's a good trait, especially when you want to find out the way things really are. You mentioned a number of famous authors, some of which are familiar to me, some whose names I have heard, but really don't know much about, and a few that are completely new to me. I like your ideas of divesting from the ego and operating from a place of love and acceptance. Beyond that, I find that I'm still questioning, that I don't have all, or perhaps hardly any, of the answers. I'd just say keep an open mind and keep investigating, but also think critically about the ideas you come across. And I agree that there is a bigger picture-- much, much greater than we can possibly comprehend.

 

[MSG_Otter.w/Ardour]

First, I'm glad to hear that you narrowly escaped from the conversion therapy trap (and suicide attempt?). You indeed paid a high price to find out what a soul-destroying crock of shit it is. Be happy that you were able to walk away from it.

Those of us in the LGBTQ+ community cannot afford to take in religion uncritically, as it seems to have come to embody all of society's homophobia, if indeed it is not the cause of it. I too was raised in an evangelical/fundamentalist background, so I'm familiar with all the dangers that lurk for us there. Fortunately for me, I did some reading as a teen that helped me see that there was nothing wrong with me, that the problem was with religion. At least that inoculated me from some of the worst effects of religious indoctrination, although I was stuck in a homophobic environment which extended way past religion, that made it impossible for me to come out.

From reading your responses in Just Us Boys, and not just this post, you seem to be very inquisitive, questioning everything, almost like a curious child. That's a good trait, especially when you want to find out the way things really are. You mentioned a number of famous authors, some of which are familiar to me, some whose names I have heard, but really don't know much about, and a few that are completely new to me. I like your ideas of divesting from the ego and operating from a place of love and acceptance. Beyond that, I find that I'm still questioning, that I don't have all, or perhaps hardly any, of the answers. I'd just say keep an open mind and keep investigating, but also think critically about the ideas you come across. And I agree that there is a bigger picture-- much, much greater than we can possibly comprehend.

Yep. I am trying to approach life with "child-like wonder" I remember that inquisitiveness and try to keep that frame, though I sometimes am drawn into cynicism when I look around... sometimes it just makes my heart hurt... But onward... still hopeful... loving as I can.