Do you know how to eat with Chopsticks?

[Ram]

See that's funny because I read it as his asian hosts getting flustered and perplexed at something completely ordinary, which is a north american who is cultured enough to know how to eat with utensils that match the dish he was served. I thought they looked looked like the fools and your colleague looked calm cool and collected.

But it's your anecdote....I'll take your word for it.

 

[zoltanspawn]

*sigh*

No, they weren't making fun of him. The anecdote was about exposing a never-traveled-before, white majority, dude, into a culture where he was the minority and how quickly he got mad or flustered by being in the minority himself for once.

Oh. I requested clarification because that wasn't clear.

It's pretty easy to notice that inexperienced travelers are sometimes insecure, and it may need repeating.

But...if the Japanese in your anecdote were shocked your friend could use chopsticks and treated him stereotypically...well...your distinction about "not making fun of him" loses a lot of its power. Because they were being dicks. There's nothing complicated about that.

In any case, I still don't see why you related the anecdote. It's as though you are supplying evidence of xenophobia to defend a xenophobic attitude.

 

[seven2go]

Said by a "true" American.

Fuckin' A Jack.......

 

[Kulindahr]

this economics thread?

Brilliant.

They make great kindling!

I once went camping with a group of twelve people. Our final meal before departing was Chinese. The group leader required everyone to get and at least try to use chopsticks -- and then bring them along.

It was a rather kool ceremony when we carefully, one by one, set our sticks across the tiny flame of a candle, to light the fire that would burn all week -- where all our food would be fixed.

I find my "skill" seems to come and go. I can be doing well during a meal for a while, then suddenly, I can't seem to use the things at all. Then I can, then I can't.

I have the same trouble. Often it's because one or both of the sticks is/are bent. Other times the sticks are fine....

(Heaven knows I have a hard enough time eating spaghetti!)

My older brother has a friend named Zung. Once when visiting, on a dare, he demonstrated that he could eat a plate full of spaghetti, including the half-olives and sliced mushrooms in the sauce, faster with chopsticks than any of us managed with forks.

More amazing was the demonstration he and my brother did: eating Campbell's chicken-noodle soup with chopsticks. As a joke, on another occasion he used a pair to eat pizza.

Zung was amazing with them -- he picked up dimes off a tabletop, and even once dealt cards with a set of teak ones he carried with him.

ALso to the arguments against I find the use of sticks to be a much more fulfilling eating experience. I pick and choose the individual items to go into my mouth and what will go across my pallet each time.

A western shovel is not the same for any pacific rim or asian style cuisine. You miss the true nature of the food when you ram it in like a construction worker moving dirt.

. . . .

Back to sticks. Next time you folks with un-trainable fingers use a fork on an Asian dish try taking singular items or onesies and twosies and give your taste buds a treat.

I haven't used a set in years, because I haven't been able to afford to go out much. I presume my hand remembers how.

 

[Kulindahr]

Travis, actually our eating customs are quite different from the UK. How much detail do you want?

First and foremost, Americans eat by cutting their meat, then switching their forks to the right hand.

Brits eat by leaving the knife in their right hand, and putting their food on the back of their forks, which stay in their left hand.

And that's just for starters.

Wait -- I'm supposed to switch my fork to my left hand?

Uh-oh....




Last time I had steak, I sliced it in two, stabbed one half with my Gerber outdoorsmans knife, and took bites off the edges. Of course, it had been cooked over a campfire....

 

[Kulindahr]

I once went to a dinner (sponsored by a youth group) where the combination of food, vessel, and utensil was selected by random drawing of cards. For example, you may be served lasagna in a cup, to be eaten with a spoon, and then salad in a bowl to be eaten with a knife.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this exercise was (though I suspect it was to encourage conformity), but I found the concept amusing.

I went to one of those and they said it was to illustrate what can happen to people in poverty or after disasters, making do with what they can get.

In a similar fashion, I get impatient at upper-class diners, places that serve Steak Diane and finish with an Orange Souffle. While I do indeed love the food, I get impatient waiting three hours from finish to start.

I went to a place like that once, in St. Louis -- don't remember the name. There was an area of one of the bars on the sides reserved for diners waiting for a table -- they made clear that you should arrive forty minutes before your reservation time, because access to tables was by arrival time (though I think arrivals too far ahead weren't checked in, for reasons that will become apparent). While waiting in that bar/lounge, drinks were half-off and a number of little appetizer things were free. Additionally, most of the tables had checker/chess boards inlaid, and chess pieces and checkers were available. I remember trying to teach one chick how chess worked... and when we were called for a table, the time had just flown, and once we got there, it was a half-hour wait for the meal -- any longer, it was free. Additionally, while sitting and waiting at our table, we had a pick of word games and other items to occupy us (we went with a crossword puzzle; the first person went through it till he found a word he could put in, then passed it on, etc.).

About half of the people I asked loved the Asian food, but didn't use the chopsticks because they were "too hard", "too much work", or "not worth the trouble".

And a cousin of mine flatly refused chopsticks at a Chinese restaurant because he wanted to pay attention to the food, not to not spilling the food all over.

Chopsticks, if you don't know what you're doing, can detract from the experience.

 

[Kulindahr]

Even though I live in an Asian country, I still do not know how to eat with chopsticks. When I do use chopsticks, something like this usually happens:

I have no desire to learn how to use a chopstick. I tried and I still suck at it.

I think for many people it's like learning to ride a bicycle is for any: they try, they try, they try some more, it just keeps not working, they do the same things over that they're told, and it still doesn't work, so they try, and try... and all at once it works. It's like the body isn't making sense of these motions, so the mind can't be in charge, but after enough repetition the body gets it, and off you go.

That was how learning both were for me. I was a disaster with chopsticks for a long time, then all of a sudden it seemed to "fit".

Bullshit! Even as the economy has boomed Americans refused to travel or make it a priority. Instead, most were fixated on buying ever larger homes, further away in the 'burbs from work, thus needing to spend even more burning fossil fuel.

You mean back under Clinton???

 

[Ganoderma]

Going by the above why the hell WOULD Americans want to travel? To run into some damn anti-American attitude? Bullshit to that too.
We live where we LIVE......NOT where we travel......where I LIVE is more important than where I might choose to travel.

Hi Seven2go,

I am a white guy of 55 that was born and raised in The Netherlands. I am living by myself in the Netherlands, and I have visited a large variety of countries in Europe, Asia, Africa, and I have also visited several countries in America (but not the US).

I have visited countries like China, Nepal, Indonesia and Yemen in Asia, and I have visited countries like Ghana, Ethiopia, Morocco, The Gambia and Lybia in Africa. I like to taste local food, and I like to eat the local food in the way how local people also eat their food. So I am eating with chopsticks in China (when appropriate) and I am eating food like banku and fufu with my hands. No big deal for me.

I also like to talk with people. I cannot speak nor understand Chinese, but I am able to speak English (not as well as you) and I am also able to speak French on a limited level.

Most people I meet have no idea from the country where I am from. I have never run into any 'damn anti-American attitude' I feel very sorry if this has happened to you.

In contract, I would like to tell you that I have met in all of these countries, as listed above (I can include American countries Cuba, Guatemala and Mexico on this list of countries I have visited), a lot of people who asked me if I was able to help them to move to either the US or Europe.

'You are far to old to cook for yourself and to clean your own house. Better take me with you so I can do these things for you, and you can take some rest in the meanwhile'. [very common said to me in Africa by guys in their 20ties who meet the criteria for the green card lottery].

It is the economy what bothers these people, and its not politics. Any idea how many people from these, and from other countries join the yearly green card lottery?

Any idea how long the row would be when you would announce in any of these countries that you (=a US citizen) are looking for a person to do a job over there (= in the US), and with the minimum qualifications set by the green card lottery?

Excuse me very much, but I have a strong opinion that you really don't have a clue what's going on in the rest of the world (=outside the US).

Feel free to reply on this posting.

 

[jasoncrew03]

Your father sounds wonderful.

He's not..

 

[MoltenRock III]

Oh. I requested clarification because that wasn't clear.

It's pretty easy to notice that inexperienced travelers are sometimes insecure, and it may need repeating.

But...if the Japanese in your anecdote were shocked your friend could use chopsticks and treated him stereotypically...well...your distinction about "not making fun of him" loses a lot of its power. Because they were being dicks. There's nothing complicated about that.

In any case, I still don't see why you related the anecdote. It's as though you are supplying evidence of xenophobia to defend a xenophobic attitude.

Yes, they were being dicks, but not purpose, but rather because of their ignorance of anything outside of Japan. Hence, why it was amusing. For once, a person of the privileged race (my coworker, a white American) was exposed to racial ignorance, which made him angry. He had the shoe on the other foot for once, and what it's like (irritating, obnoxious) when having to be a minority for once.

Nearly all of the white people, my partner included, who I've taken to Asia or points beyond, have had a similar type of eye opening experience. This is one of the reasons I think all Americans need to get out and travel more. Once they have seen firsthand how difficult it is to both communicate and be a minority race for a time, they learn a valuable lesson, and are much more openminded when it comes to immigrants in America.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Chopsticks, if you don't know what you're doing, can detract from the experience.

Exactly!!

Kulindahr, you said in one sentence what I've been trying to convey in three pages of posts.

I just want to enjoy the doggone food! Not make an ass of myself by trying to use chopsticks.

Thank you.

Learning how to use chopsticks is too difficult, so it's best to settle for a second-rate experience?

What a defense of mediocrity you are mounting.

Learning how to rudimentarily use chopsticks is no Herculean feat.

Even rudimentary use provides the advantages and pleasures the implement allows.

The real issue with learning to use chopsticks isn't that it requires some special dexterity.

It's that it requires 1) an appreciation for the beauty of the table. If you lack that, fine. I happen to think that means you're missing out, and maybe a bit too satisfied with primitive aesthetics.

Learning to use chopsticks also requires 2) effort. And again, I don't mean dexterity. I mean the will to overcome laziness.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Nearly all of the white people, my partner included, who I've taken to Asia or points beyond, have had a similar type of eye opening experience. This is one of the reasons I think all Americans need to get out and travel more. Once they have seen firsthand how difficult it is to both communicate and be a minority race for a time, they learn a valuable lesson, and are much more openminded when it comes to immigrants in America.

I agree with you passionately on this point. And for the reason you've provided, and others, too.

 

[Kulindahr]

Learning how to use chopsticks is too difficult, so it's best to settle for a second-rate experience?

Where'd that idea come from?

Learning how to rudimentarily use chopsticks is no Herculean feat.

Even rudimentary use provides the advantages and pleasures the implement allows.

"Pleasures"?

I do better than "rudimentary", and I don't find any pleasure or displeasure (though they do make a nice tool for emphasizing a point in conversation when you click them together). Entertaining, yes -- picking up peanuts is fun -- but they're just a tool. Interesting, yes -- they bring sort of a different attitude toward food -- but they're just a tool.

The real issue with learning to use chopsticks isn't that it requires some special dexterity.

It's that it requires 1) an appreciation for the beauty of the table. If you lack that, fine. I happen to think that means you're missing out, and maybe a bit too satisfied with primitive aesthetics.

Learning to use chopsticks also requires 2) effort. And again, I don't mean dexterity. I mean the will to overcome laziness.

"Beauty of the table"?

You mean the picnic table by the little food wagon? the tailgate of my pickup? the driftwood log at the beach? the formica countertop in the kitchen?

Sorry, but it does require dexterity. Watching people learn, I've noticed that people whose work or hobbies require manual dexterity pick it up faster than those whose occupations don't.

"Laziness"? Actually, I'd say the opposite is almost true: most Americans learning chopsticks have to learn to not try so hard -- to be a bit lazier.

Perseverance -- yes. Some people just pick them up and get it, but for those who don't, it's try, and try, and keep trying.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Where'd that idea come from?

From JohannBessler's post.

"Pleasures"?

I do better than "rudimentary", and I don't find any pleasure or displeasure (though they do make a nice tool for emphasizing a point in conversation when you click them together). Entertaining, yes -- picking up peanuts is fun -- but they're just a tool. Interesting, yes -- they bring sort of a different attitude toward food -- but they're just a tool.

Any tool at all will do then. You should start scraping your victuals from the nearest stump with a knotty branch. It too is merely a tool.

"Beauty of the table"?

I suppose that might sound a bit effete. But as I've worked my entire life with food, serving food, cooking food and caring about food--the word passionately is overused here, but it does come to mind--the phrase makes sense to me. Your rolling on the floor laughing, on the other hand, reminds me of the attitude of mongrels. Fuck off.

You mean the picnic table by the little food wagon? the tailgate of my pickup? the driftwood log at the beach? the formica countertop in the kitchen?

There's nothing essentially ugly about simplicity.

Sorry, but it does require dexterity. Watching people learn, I've noticed that people whose work or hobbies require manual dexterity pick it up faster than those whose occupations don't.

Easier than tying your shoes. Most people can handle that.

"Laziness"? Actually, I'd say the opposite is almost true: most Americans learning chopsticks have to learn to not try so hard -- to be a bit lazier.

Perseverance -- yes. Some people just pick them up and get it, but for those who don't, it's try, and try, and keep trying.

You may have a mongrel's attitude about beauty, but your talent for pedantry makes up for it.

/trolled

 

[Kulindahr]

From JohannBessler's post.



Any tool at all will do then. You should start scraping your victuals from the nearest stump with a knotty branch. It too is merely a tool.



I suppose that might sound a bit effete. But as I've worked my entire life with food, serving food, cooking food and caring about food--the word passionately is overused here, but it does come to mind--the phrase makes sense to me. Your rolling on the floor laughing, on the other hand, reminds me of the attitude of mongrels. Fuck off.



There's nothing essentially ugly about simplicity.



Easier than tying your shoes. Most people can handle that.



You may have a mongrel's attitude about beauty, but your talent for pedantry makes up for it.

/trolled

You have a wonderful talent for reading in things that just aren't there.

WRT beauty: the beauty of the table has nothing to do with what utensils you use.

Ditch the arrogance, and read for what's there, not what a snobbish attitude can invent to trample on.

 

[bankside]

It's at this point I'll point out that worrying about one's appetite can detract from the experience of learning to use chopsticks. Culturally they are much more than a tool.

From shovelling food to the social graces to even funerary customs, it is interesting to experience a departure from even the most mundane of daily routines, like how to get food to your mouth, if indeed that is all it was.

And you don't need to go to a restaurant or buy a lacquered set to experience them. I'm sure a serviceable set could even be whittled from wood growing at the side of the road if one had the curiosity and the time, but not the money.

 

[zoltanspawn]

WRT beauty: the beauty of the table has nothing to do with what utensils you use.

Ditch the arrogance, and read for what's there, not what a snobbish attitude can invent to trample on.

No. I am not snobbish. I care about something. I am informed about its issues.

I'm interested in increasing other's pleasure at the table.

Utensils are a part of the table...their practicality, their effect. They contribute directly to an increase or decrease in delight and efficiency.

I work rather tirelessly for the pleasure of common people with formica countertops.

You would do well to add a distinction between arrogance and ardor to your arsenal of asinine assumptions.

 

[Ganoderma]

Nearly all of the white people, my partner included, who I've taken to Asia or points beyond, have had a similar type of eye opening experience. This is one of the reasons I think all Americans need to get out and travel more. Once they have seen firsthand how difficult it is to both communicate and be a minority race for a time, they learn a valuable lesson, and are much more open-minded when it comes to immigrants in America.

Hi MoltenRock III,

Thanks for this posting. I agree with you as well. People need to travel more, especially white Americans who clearly have no idea what's going on in the rest of the world. I tend to expand this view to groups of white people living in Europe.

In particular gay males will have more opportunities to make such visits.

Most gay males have no childeren, so don't need to spend huge amounts of money to raise their childeren. In stead, they can use this money for travelling to other countries.

So quite a few gays cannot use the 'excuse' that they don't have enough money to effort such a trip. That means they must have another argument, why they don't wanna travel to let say any of the Arab countries, SE Asia and / or sub Sahara Africa.

Please go on with your efforts to tell your friends and people over here that they need to travel more and get to get those experiences.

Experience how Chinese people eat (=shovelling rice inside their mouth with chopsticks), and how they cope with food, is just one of those nice experiences. You are totally right, such Chinese people stare to me (and I can 'feel' that they talk about me), and are very curious how I will manage to eat their food with chopsticks.

As a side note, I do have met quite a few US citizens in a variety of non-western countries, who had choosen to visit these countries because they were curious to know more about the world outside the US.

Best wishes & good luck.

 

[WIZZARD101]

I'm fairly certain that the use of forks and spoons is a custom as old, if not older, than using chopsticks.

And yes, I know how to use them.

people were eating with chopsticks when most people were still using their fingers. like most things having to do with Asian culture, they were done well before anyone in the west even thought about it. I learned when i was about 6. Our family were good friends with a family that owned a Chinese restaurant and I was told if i wanted to eat i needed to learn. they are actually much more logical than a knife and fork. In Asian culture the work is done in the kitchen, not on your plate.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Yes! Thanks to frequent visits to Sushi places.