does the US govt owe LGBT reparations?

[luckynumbah7]

Oh yeah I know where it comes from, at least on my side, some LGBT of color are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into tolerance and equality, they've internalized the anti-gay teachings of the church and don't believe that we deserve equal rights under the law. Somebody has to have the patience [fuck-tons of it] to teach them to love themselves and then other gay people. Of course that's exactly the kind of program that should be funded by the government because A] nobody else with the same level of resources is gonna do it and B] the govt spent years legitimizing homophobia ipso facto self-hatred with discriminatory laws. They had a direct hand in anti-gay bigotry this isn't some 6 degrees of separation type shit so I'm not sure why people are speaking as if I'm asking some non-complicit 8th party to pick up someone else's tab at an entirely different bar.

I wasn't speaking of church teachings, and by misplaced anger and bitterness I wasn't referencing internalized homophobia - though that could certainly be included in the overall discussion.

Not everything is ...analogous. Much like racism isn't a perfect analogy for homophobia when explaining intersections, homophobia (at least of the true-belief variety) usually isn't a good description for trans people being bitter at misrepresentation and forming opinions from it, as that bitterness is involved across all the assumed sexualities that people base on genitalia. It's not limited to just gay people. I'm probably not explaining it well. Tho it could certainly be called homophobia if they were seen as gay beforehand and weren't. I'm not sure whether that would be considered internalized homophobia, however, as that has a specific meaning.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I wasn't speaking of church teachings, and by misplaced anger and bitterness I wasn't referencing internalized homophobia - though that could certainly be included in the overall discussion.

Not everything is ...analogous. Much like racism isn't a perfect analogy for homophobia, homophobia isn't a good description for trans people being bitter at misrepresentation, as that bitterness is involved across all the assumed sexualities that people base on genitalia. It's not limited to just gay people.

Ahhh I gotcha, I'm not super-versed in trans issues especially in politics so I was kinda swerving onto a more familiar road.

 

[luckynumbah7]

....If we had universal healthcare most of this would be much simpler.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

....If we had universal healthcare most of this would be much simpler.

Watch your mouth, you know that's a four-letter word I do love the idea that someone suffering from mental psych or emotional affliction can just up and get the care they need without having to do a preliminary cost call, mapping out next month's rent and food budget et cetera, since I'm already suggesting something not likely in the near future [though I'm cautious about using the bolded words ever since Obama's inauguration] I guess there's no harm in adding bells and whistles to the fantasy.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Please explain how that remark is related to the topic of discussion.

It isn't, he's just mocking brown people. Apparently you've never met. Opi this is Pat, Pat, Opi.

 

[LilBit]

....If we had universal healthcare most of this would be much simpler.

That's actually one form of reparations that would serve many of the groups that have been screwed over by the US government, state and local governments, and various flavors of bigots. Much more effective than just cutting a check to individuals.

I'd also like to see curricular overhaul that includes the history of various underrepresented groups (ideally *integrated* into the history curriculum rather than presented as a sideshow), scholarship funds for at-risk groups, investment in minority-owned business, and other structural changes to society that would lead to lasting change.

(And yes, this probably would fall under what someone *ahem* snarkily referred to as intersectional reparations.)

 

[luckynumbah7]

There must be Intersectionalist Reparations!

Try taking off the -ist, then you've got the idea.

You can't slice a person's qualifiers in several ways. It's done for ease of communication but it isn't actually possible. While each group faces its own (pretty damn similar) issues, the ...idiosynchronicities of those issues when they're combined with another qualifier often create new and particular problems.

Mind you, I'm not generally for portmanteau's of -isms in language. It can help for discussion purposes but I think humanity tends to fall into the trap of cutting things ever-finer once it thinks it's got categories clearly marked out, and 'clearly marked' has never gone well when referring to, say, an intrinsic trait that's defined culturally by group agreement.

@Lilbit,

Though that kind of reperational aims could be well served by such portmanteau concepts for encouraging the quota of equity. Not like we don't have many of the statistics for it already.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

That's actually one form of reparations that would serve many of the groups that have been screwed over by the US government, state and local governments, and various flavors of bigots. Much more effective than just cutting a check to individuals.

I'd also like to see curricular overhaul that includes the history of various underrepresented groups (ideally *integrated* into the history curriculum rather than presented as a sideshow), scholarship funds for at-risk groups, investment in minority-owned business, and other structural changes to society that would lead to lasting change.

(And yes, this probably would fall under what someone *ahem* snarkily referred to as intersectional reparations.)

I love how some of you really get me. I'm still chuckling at knowing that some read this as "Gimme a free check so I can buy me some Jordans "

I can't list all the real and lasting consequences of legalized discrimination has had on LGBT, I'm thinking of the lesbian couple whose home was vandalized and burnt to a crisp in a hate crime and their insurance company sat on their hands to cover the damages, some of our situations literally do have a dollar amount you can tack on, and others not so easily like the couple in Florida who were separated as one lay dying in the hospital all because of paperwork. I think if some of them turned off the porn and read the news every now and again they might realize just how difficult like can be when your own govt [which, again, we pay full taxes to] does not grant you full citizenship.

 

[KaraBulut]

Does the bolded part not explain the underlined part?

Progress is not equality. It's reasonable to say, "It's not as bad as it used to be" but it's not the same as "It's as good as it can be".

Oh yeah I know where it comes from, at least on my side, some LGBT of color are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into tolerance and equality, they've internalized the anti-gay teachings of the church and don't believe that we deserve equal rights under the law.

The charismatic and Pentecostal flavor of Black churches is something that is particularly a problem for Black LGBT people. It's also the ultimate irony since most of what goes on behind the pulpit wouldn't be happening if not for LGBT church members.

JUB used to have a sister forum for underaged LGBT people who were in the coming out process. The stories there don't sound very different from the stories 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago. The only difference is that there are role models and there's the perception that being gay is an option, even if it's an option that they wouldn't necessarily want to choose.

It's surprising how, in the 21st century, even in the most liberal of countries, there's still a painful process of coming out. While they may not have to worry about being put in jail for sodomy, there's not equality, nor the perception that it's equality.

In the generation before mine, children who were left-handed were often forced to use their right-hand in school because being left-handed was considered abnormal. Now, being left-handed is just considered a normal variation. Being gay is still in that gray area between "abnormal" and "normal variation". No amount of reparations is going to fix that and it's a waste of time and energy to settle old scores instead of trying to work on getting to actual fairness and equality (and normality).

... I think if some of them turned off the porn and read the news every now and again they might realize just how difficult like can be when your own govt [which, again, we pay full taxes to] does not grant you full citizenship.

Preach.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Progress is not equality. It's reasonable to say, "It's not as bad as it used to be" but it's not the same as "It's as good as it can be".

I wouldn't ever imply that we've arrived, if my wording wasn't clear I only meant to encourage appreciation that we have it better than yestergays [copyright pending, that's soooo clever]. I warn people all the time that it'll be at least a hundred years until we've successfully assimilated into mainstream America to the point that anti-gay incidents will be few and far between.

The charismatic and Pentecostal flavor of Black churches is something that is particularly a problem for Black LGBT people. It's also the ultimate irony since most of what goes on behind the pulpit wouldn't be happening if not for LGBT church members.

every oz of this pun is intended

If only you knew the convos I've had with black gay men about politics, it's something to behold the mental gymnastics they're capable of when defending their own prejudices against themselves and each other.

No amount of reparations is going to fix that and it's a waste of time and energy to settle old scores instead of trying to work on getting to actual fairness and equality (and normality)

This is where I have to disagree. Reparations could help solve exactly that. Mentorship programs or outreach programs or therapy for gays including youth. X amount of dollars allocated specifically for therapy to help build their esteem and identity, as well as x amount of dollars for diversity training exactly like Starbucks is doing with their race-bias training. end result is happier, healthier gays and educated straight people, I get so focused on the outright homophobes that I forget about the unintentional ignorant folks who mean well- such as my ex's patients-- he worked for an eye doctor and was frequently asked about his love life by patients just making small talk or wanting to hook him up with their niece, not knowing his history of depression, anxiety and suicide over his internalized homophobia, every "So are you single?" was a sharp sting to him and being closeted he couldn't say anything-- he would become anxious and have to cook up a lie about a girlfriend to end the conversation, these people never knew the pain something so insignificant could cause him. Now picture these same patients going through some kind of seminar that explains this all to them, I'm sure at least some would be more mindful of their words. I've often wished I could build a career doing exactly that, traveling the country and teaching businesses and organizations about LGBT issues and tolerance on a knowledge is power type kick. Now imagine the govt pouring enough funds that we could make that a reality from Alaska to Jawjuh. How could that possibly be ineffective?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

^one organization that definitely needs LGBT training is police as far as dealing with hate crimes and especially domestic violence, the lack of knowledge on their behalf mixed with toxic, violent relationships and all the trappings that come with being in a socially disapproved relationship is not unlike smothering a forest fire with napalm.

 

[KaraBulut]

...This is where I have to disagree. Reparations could help solve exactly that.

Meanwhile back in the Fundamentalist's Ranch:
Mat Staver: ‘Literally We Are A Few Months Away’ From Ensuring End Of Roe & Obergefell

Speaking on a Religious Right radio program last week, Mat Staver, the founder of the conservative legal group Liberty Counsel, urged conservative Christians to go to the polls in the 2018 midterm elections in order to ensure that President Trump is able to nominate Supreme Court justices who will vote to overturn decisions on abortion rights and marriage equality because “literally we are a few months away” from ensuring that those rulings are overturned.

If Trump is able to replace any liberal or moderate justice “with someone like Gorsuch,” he said, “that means the abortion decision, the same-sex marriage decision, all of those things that went the wrong way will ultimately be in the balance to be reversed. So literally we are a few months away.”

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Meanwhile back in the Fundamentalist's Ranch:
Mat Staver: ‘Literally We Are A Few Months Away’ From Ensuring End Of Roe & Obergefell

And still, reparations could also include funds for outreach, campaigning for pro-LGBT politicians, education and tolerance/diversity training et cetera to get more political support. People gotta think outside the box and stop picturing this as a mad cash grab that's gonna be spent on sneakers and designer jeans. Money talks in US politics, it's pretty much the only thing that has a clear and consistent voice.