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East Germans say Life Was Better under Communism

Yeah, like exterminate the multiculturalists, and anyone else they don't like. Such an enlightened view of good government you have Harke. Are you thinking of running for office?

I know that reading things into what other people say is a hobby in CE & P, but try not to get caught up in it: you're assuming that because he pointed out something good about someone that he endorses the whole program, which isn't necessarily so.

Actually, sounds a whole lot like Obama. :wave:

Not really. Bush was closer to being fascist than Obama -- maybe Obama is a "multicultural fascist"? :badgrin:
 
So, let them vote back in a communist government. Hell, we'll give them our left wing screwballs, if they're short!

Maybe they could just immigrate to North Korea, I think they don't have to big a problem with people trying to get in, must like East Germany back in the day. They should feel right at home there. They might want to take food with them though because as in most communist dictatorships there isn't a whole lot there waiting for them.
 
KULIN: I found a better article, this one brought to us by Der Spiegel. What I find particularly tantalizing is that some of the former East Germans who have done quite well under reunification still preferred the old system.

The article to which you are referring is here:

HOMESICK FOR A DICTATORSHIP

Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122-2,00.html

It is a very interesting article with some startling observations.

Der Spiegel actuall has a series called 20 Years After The Wall which I also recommend reading, as it comprises many different articles and viewpoints on this subject matter. You can read them here:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,k-7540,00.html
 
I'd like to point out that a lot of the eastern block went from communism to corrupt oligarchy and strong-man thuggery. It is not surprising at all to hear that life was better before for a great number of people; of course it was. But that is not exactly setting the bar high.

And it has nothing to do with the relative success of communism vs. liberal markets. To infer how successful each of those models are, you just have to compare the net immigration between the former east bock, and places like europe (well most of it anyway) and north america.

We win.
 
And it has nothing to do with the relative success of communism vs. liberal markets. To infer how successful each of those models are, you just have to compare the net immigration between the former east bock, and places like europe (well most of it anyway) and north america.

We win.

You'd be surprized how many people are immigrating into places like Russia.
 
In other words, you're comparing apples with oranges. Is it any wonder East Berliners were trying to escape over the Wall? Where would YOU have rather been? In a region completely raped of its resources, or a region where a zillion $$ was being poured into?

I don't recall that being the issue at the time. People who fled Eastern Germany were mostly not likely to find a better financial situation in the West.

What they wanted was either liberty, or to be reunited with their family members.
 
I think his point is that the west had already benefited from reconstruction while the east had been drained of resources. Liberty is more fun in a prosperous fashionable economy. The point may apply to east germany, but not to the eastern block as a whole. It was a big place, and in command of copious resources.

If europe could manage a program of reconstruction after the war, so could the eastern block, even if it was not particularly favourable to a specific place like east germany.
 
I think his point is that the west had already benefited from reconstruction while the east had been drained of resources. Liberty is more fun in a prosperous fashionable economy. The point may apply to east germany, but not to the eastern block as a whole. It was a big place, and in command of copious resources.

If europe could manage a program of reconstruction after the war, so could the eastern block, even if it was not particularly favourable to a specific place like east germany.

The East could have, but they didn't. The why of that tells more about the system than about the decisions that were made, because they were unable to do it. Free market economies could be counted on to generate prosperity while controlled economies couldn't, and prosperity is a prerequisite of foreign aid.
 
The East could have, but they didn't. The why of that tells more about the system than about the decisions that were made, because they were unable to do it. Free market economies could be counted on to generate prosperity while controlled economies couldn't, and prosperity is a prerequisite of foreign aid.

Yes, well we can add that to my observation about immigration patterns.
 
Err... actually, there were a few people who defected to the East, including American singer Dean Reed, who became a superstar there...

Defections to the East got very little press here, for obvious reasons.

Awesome, let's start sending Americans that constantly deride capitalism as greedy and unfair. We could like swap them out for oppressed people that would like the power to succeed or fail based on their own merits and hard work or maybe we could start an exchange system. Let's start with all the college professors and news reporters. I am thinking that after a year in North Korea that might have better things to say about their own country. They might even see what the ultimate result of their policies is and actually start loving their country.
 
My good friend Kulindahr has forgotten how the United States became so rich in the first place. That's out of character, because he's normally a highly intelligent man.

You totally lost me here....what does original U.S. prosperity have to do with rebuilding after war's devastation?
 
Awesome, let's start sending Americans that constantly deride capitalism as greedy and unfair. We could like swap them out for oppressed people that would like the power to succeed or fail based on their own merits and hard work or maybe we could start an exchange system. Let's start with all the college professors and news reporters. I am thinking that after a year in North Korea that might have better things to say about their own country. They might even see what the ultimate result of their policies is and actually start loving their country.

I'm dubious that North Korea represents the end product of any system of beliefs in the U.S. (silly deportation schemes aside). It's not really socialist, it's merely authoritarian -- the ideology is just a mask for the raw exercise of power.
 
I think it is a little far-fetched to say that people succeed or fail based on their own merits in the west. First of all, the market is not yet fair enough to permit that, and even in theory that is a bit of libertarian fantasy.
 
I think it is a little far-fetched to say that people succeed or fail based on their own merits in the west. First of all, the market is not yet fair enough to permit that, and even in theory that is a bit of libertarian fantasy.

The first part is true, but that doesn't make it "a libertarian fantasy". In theory, there's no favoritism -- which even the best libertarian economists grant is wishful thinking; there will always be elements of who you know, and who you're related to.
 
Solara, it's easy to pick raisins out of a pudding and show capitalism's good face, without showing its dark side. If you were in the United States in the 1930s, or even 1880s or around 1907, it would be easy to call capitalism a failure because our country was racked by Depressions in those years.

Similarly, while the United States could be called a capitalistic success at the moment, places like Chile, the Honduras, or Mexico would not represent capitalism in too favorable a light, would they? Sometimes capitalism works, sometimes it doesn't.

Apropos East Germany, one thing that must be remembered is that pockets of the former DDR still is racked with 25% unemployment after 20 years—half the time that the DDR was in existence.

There are two problems entangled with capitalism in the scenarios you reference: one is culture (of graft, of corruption, etc.), and the other is scale.

As populations expand, rules change (learned that in ecology class :D ). Pure capitalism was fine when a large corporation meant a dozen men pooling their funds to outfit a fleet of ships for trade, when the basic resources were easily accessed by many, if not all. There are now corporations with more employees plus family than there were in all of New England at the time of the ratifying of the U.S. Constitution -- and that changes the nature of the game.
The basic capitalist principles apply, because those are just descriptions of how (most) people behave if allowed to do as they please (while honoring the rights of others). But within corporations, the structure is more feudal than capitalist -- departments instead of fiefs, of course.

I'm going to assume there's no need to explain corruption and graft.

There's another factor at work, too, that has nothing to do with any economic system in particular: wealth, and power, tend to concentrate. The denser the wealth -- another way of saying the denser the population -- the greater the potential concentration, and the weaker the forces inhibiting concentration. That leads toward economic feudalism in the whole society, paralleling that within the large corporations.

At any rate... we've never seen a test of pure capitalism on a large scale; governments tinker both in favor of and against corporations, large and small. As a result, we have no real way of saying that capitalism works, or doesn't, on the kind of scale we're dealing with today.
 
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