Edmonton Pride parade held hostage

[TickTockMan]

until this ends they're all assumed guilty until proven otherwise. imagine working for a company, and you know your coworkers are killing people and getting away with it. i don't know you super well but you strike me as the kinda guy that would raise hell until either you're fired or they fix the system. nothing less is acceptable.

Haha.

You are good. I got fired from my last two jobs for that. My main job I was the "union" chair for all night employees. (I do feel part of it was they figured out I'm not straight though.)



With that said for there to be change, there needs to be give and take.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Or maybe blacks, a minuscule portion of the population, are committing a disproportionate amount of the crime. Why cant you see that?
I too understand how easy it'd be for a black person to be so dismissive of this information.

Who's being dismissive? I've been involved with anti-crime and anti-violence orgs in my community since I was a teenager. Though I can understand why someone who has preconceived notions about people of color would ahem assume I turn a blind eye to the sins of my brothers. either way that's irrelevant, see the way it's supposed to work [and the way it does work if you're white] is you commit a crime, you go to jail and face a jury or judge for your crimes, didn't your elementary school social studies teacher explain due process to you? if they didn't I'd be glad to explain to you how cops are for all intents and purposes glorified cab drivers who taxi criminals from the crime scene to the jailhouse. and that's coming from the son of a former cop.

 

[bankside]

until this ends they're all assumed guilty until proven otherwise.

This attitude nourishes and sustains racism. Assumed guilty until proven innocent is the antithesis of legal justice, social justice, moral justice. If Christopher Hitchens were still alive he’d point out what a sickening derivative it is ofnthe doctrine of original sin. Born sick and commanded to be well. No thanks.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

With that said for there to be change, there needs to be give and take.

Now we're encroaching on Malcolm/Martin, Xavier/Magneto territory, some argue that fighting for justice requires one to be a lion not a lamb. I'm a pacifist I wish to the very core of my being that it were as easy as making a polite request but we've been protesting this for fuck-near a century now. I've always thought it a general rule of war that you have to be willing to get as dirty as your enemy, people should be thankful that this hasn't turned into warfare, at times I do fear that somebody somewhere is going to take it to that level and cops could become targets for people who are sick of asking nicely.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

This attitude nourishes and sustains racism. Assumed guilty until proven innocent is the antithesis of legal justice, social justice, moral justice. If Christopher Hitchens were still alive he’d point out what a sickening derivative it is ofnthe doctrine of original sin. Born sick and commanded to be well. No thanks.

sustains racism? you're reaching but the shelf is too high, I do not have the power to sustain any kind of system of bigotry, no black person on American soil does. racism is sustained by white people and only by white people, my people have many sins but you aren't going to pin that one on us. we have been on the losing end of that system for centuries and do not have the economic, social or political means to even make white people a little uncomfortable let alone discriminate let alone kill with impunity coupled with the luxury of blaming it on a bad childhood or being picked on in school, many of us have unimaginable childhoods growing up in poverty but nobody's concerned about that when we commit a crime the way white criminal narratives are usually "he was picked on" "tortured soul" "his mom was an alcoholic" "his dad never took him to a Dodgers game."

I'm sustaining racism? thanks for my laugh for the night.

 

[TickTockMan]

Now we're encroaching on Malcolm/Martin, Xavier/Magneto territory, some argue that fighting for justice requires one to be a lion not a lamb. I'm a pacifist I wish to the very core of my being that it were as easy as making a polite request but we've been protesting this for fuck-near a century now. I've always thought it a general rule of war that you have to be willing to get as dirty as your enemy, people should be thankful that this hasn't turned into warfare, at times I do fear that somebody somewhere is going to take it to that level and cops could become targets for people who are sick of asking nicely.

I have already said in post #143 How I feel.

Speaking for myself only; I don’t believe that is what Fab said or meant, but to answer the question, I do. But we have had so many leaps forward I feel it is the wrong tactic.

You make it sound as if there have been no improvements in the last hundred years. I see there has been and we are moving in the right direction, just too slowly. There is a time to be a lion, but I don't feel it is when things are moving forward. Even if slowly.

A large part of this is nothing more than PR to get people on our side. Being a lion when it is not called for only will turn people off unless they like violence in general.

 

[SeaCore]

Or maybe blacks, a minuscule portion of the population, are committing a disproportionate amount of the crime. Why cant you see that?
I too understand how easy it'd be for a black person to be so dismissive of this information.

Those crime statistics are a part of why I believe we do have systemic racism in our country.
It doesn't make sense for ~14% of the population to make up such a disproportionate amount of the prison population.
Your might argue, they're committing more of the crime; okay why is that?
You could claim it to be an innate trait of the Black population; which I doubt and I'd like an explanation for why the numbers weren't higher if that were the case.
You could claim it to be because of the Black population frequently overlapping with the population of people with lower income. And I might would agree. But why are Black people more representative in the lower income population?
For me, I'm inclined to point to systems that were used to prevent Black people from sharing in some of the periods of economic growth in the US making them have to play a game of catch up. Segregation really didn't end that long ago, and even when it did this doesn't mean other methods weren't created to make an environment that was hostile to Black prosperity. Read Black Like Me if you'd like to see some examples of this. And we have a history of doing this type of thing, read Slavery by Another Name for reference.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to propose that we have a system that acts recursively in a way that clearly disadvantages Black people; whether there's intent behind it or not.
Black people make up the higher prison population leading people to being more suspicious of Black people leading to Black people being more likely to get caught for a crime.
Black people represent more of the lower income population leading to higher associations with crime (whether deserved or not) leading to less opportunity leading to crime being a more favorable means of survival.
Black people develop a culture that creates a sense of solidarity but creates norms that are counter culture to the mainstream and are thus weary to outsiders because they don't understand it leading to a compulsion to assimilate to mainstream leading to a disconnect from the Black culture created out of solidarity creating division from the low-income Blacks to the more assimilated middle-income and high-income Blacks further stunting the prosperity of the Black population as a whole.
And these relationships intersect and there are more relationships than I've mentioned and it's a horrible twisted mess that is difficult to talk about.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I have already said in post #143 How I feel.




You make it sound as if there have been no improvements in the last hundred years. I see there has been and we are moving in the right direction, just too slowly. There is a time to be a lion, but I don't feel it is when things are moving forward. Even if slowly.

A large part of this is nothing more than PR to get people on our side. Being a lion when it is not called for only will turn people off unless they like violence in general.

We're past the point of asking for improvement, we want the shit to end. We know it's wrong, we know it's a problem and we know how to fix it [stop killing us, or at least send them to prison if they do] how many more sons and fathers and cousins and brothers need to die before we can call it a crisis? how long does it take to convince people that we are deserving of life or at least justice? I know it's not as bad as it used to be, thank god cuz with my attitude I never would've survived the police culture of, say, 1954. stateside the protesting really amped up in the sixties, the fuckin sixties man so we're going on over half a century of dealing with this. honestly i think it's the same as the AIDS crisis where people didn't get involved or care until it started affecting people like them and ultimately i think that's where this is headed, while white people try to police [no pun] our methods the killings will continue until it's one white boy, then another, then another, then another and just like aids only when the elite are hit will we see a major push to end the problem. the meager improvements we were making are being reversed by IQ45 promoting and validating anti-brown culture in a very direct way and unfortunately i don't believe canada is entirely beyond the reach of his influence.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Those crime statistics are a part of why I believe we do have systemic racism in our country.
It doesn't make sense for ~14% of the population to make up such a disproportionate amount of the prison population.
Your might argue, they're committing more of the crime; okay why is that?
You could claim it to be an innate trait of the Black population; which I doubt and I'd like an explanation for why the numbers weren't higher if that were the case.
You could claim it to be because of the Black population frequently overlapping with the population of people with lower income. And I might would agree. But why are Black people more representative in the lower income population?
For me, I'm inclined to point to systems that were used to prevent Black people from sharing in some of the periods of economic growth in the US making them have to play a game of catch up. Segregation really didn't end that long ago, and even when it did this doesn't mean other methods weren't created to make an environment that was hostile to Black prosperity. Read Black Like Me if you'd like to see some examples of this. And we have a history of doing this type of thing, read Slavery by Another Name for reference.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to propose that we have a system that acts recursively in a way that clearly disadvantages Black people; whether there's intent behind it or not.
Black people make up the higher prison population leading people to being more suspicious of Black people leading to Black people being more likely to get caught for a crime.
Black people represent more of the lower income population leading to higher associations with crime (whether deserved or not) leading to less opportunity leading to crime being a more favorable means of survival.
Black people develop a culture that creates a sense of solidarity but creates norms that are counter culture to the mainstream and are thus weary to outsiders because they don't understand it leading to a compulsion to assimilate to mainstream leading to a disconnect from the Black culture created out of solidarity creating division from the low-income Blacks to the more assimilated middle-income and high-income Blacks further stunting the prosperity of the Black population as a whole.
And these relationships intersect and there are more relationships than I've mentioned and it's a horrible twisted mess that is difficult to talk about.

there aren't enough standing ovation gifs in the world for this post, not to excuse my people from accoutability but we cannot ignore the fact that if police are driving around looking for black criminals, that's what they're gonna find. and they're, statistically, more lenient with white criminals and that's for everything from low level non-violent offenses up into murder, as it stands now a white serial killer armed with a military-grade weapon has a better chance of surviving arrest than an unarmed black person who was selling cds or cigarettes or going 6 miles over the speed limit. only the most hardcore racists are gonna deny that.

 

[TickTockMan]

We're past the point of asking for improvement, we want the shit to end. We know it's wrong, we know it's a problem and we know how to fix it [stop killing us, or at least send them to prison if they do] how many more sons and fathers and cousins and brothers need to die before we can call it a crisis? how long does it take to convince people that we are deserving of life or at least justice? I know it's not as bad as it used to be, thank god cuz with my attitude I never would've survived the police culture of, say, 1954. stateside the protesting really amped up in the sixties, the fuckin sixties man so we're going on over half a century of dealing with this. honestly i think it's the same as the AIDS crisis where people didn't get involved or care until it started affecting people like them and ultimately i think that's where this is headed, while white people try to police [no pun] our methods the killings will continue until it's one white boy, then another, then another, then another and just like aids only when the elite are hit will we see a major push to end the problem. the meager improvements we were making are being reversed by IQ45 promoting and validating anti-brown culture in a very direct way and unfortunately i don't believe canada is entirely beyond the reach of his influence.

And that is why I keep saying we need to make people know how it affects them.

 

[willhunt]

there aren't enough standing ovation gifs in the world for this post, not to excuse my people from accoutability but we cannot ignore the fact that if police are driving around looking for black criminals, that's what they're gonna find. and they're, statistically, more lenient with white criminals and that's for everything from low level non-violent offenses up into murder, as it stands now a white serial killer armed with a military-grade weapon has a better chance of surviving arrest than an unarmed black person who was selling cds or cigarettes or going 6 miles over the speed limit. only the most hardcore racists are gonna deny that.

And that is why I keep saying we need to make people know how it affects them.

Walking home jammin' your headphones = white people problems. Walking home terrified and constantly looking over your shoulder, maybe getting offed by a cop = black people problems.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Why do you assume they only care if it is by Canadian police?



And to be honest I did forget we were talking about Canada when I wrote that response, but the point is the same.

Because it was the presence of Edmonton police, the Mounties and the Canadian military that they were protesting against. I wonder if the woman at the front of the protests would have preferred to see cops from Uganda

 

[Zeno Lorea]

One is too many, four is unconscionable. Of course that depends on whether or not a person actually values black lives, someone who doesn't probably won't see it that way.

Dude, there are tiny villages in your country that would be happy to have only four police shootings over the course of a whole century

And why do you assume that those four, or even just one of those four people shot by the police in that period were black? Or innocent victims? With that city's demographics and friendly policing, they were more likely to be white men who shot at the police first.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Wait! What???? But the cops marching in Pride ARE actively working to improve it. Man you make no sense at all anymore.

Then put her on ignore like everybody else. Most of us unblock her messages once a week or so. I myself have just responded to one of her nonsensical ramblings, but doing so more regularly would make me go crazy.

I don't often agree with you either, but you don't pester, harass or insult anyone. LudicroulyCrappo does.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

I don't trust that, not when the person has a gun and carte blanche to use it on me knowing there will be no consequences.

Which in Canada is not the case.

Remember that this thread is about Edmonton in Canada and nowhere else. You can try to derail it as much as you want, because you want each and every thread to be about you, but this one is not.

Fuck it, have you even been to Edmonton? Ever?

 

[TickTockMan]

Walking home jammin' your headphones = white people problems. Walking home terrified and constantly looking over your shoulder, maybe getting offed by a cop = black people problems.

To a point, but it is not like poor white people are not getting killed from time to time either. The only seemingly safe people are the more rich and powerful. And yes the includes white LGBT peoples.

 

[TickTockMan]

Because it was the presence of Edmonton police, the Mounties and the Canadian military that they were protesting against. I wonder if the woman at the front of the protests would have preferred to see cops from Uganda

That just means that is where they were. Why protest NYC cops being at their pride when there probably was none.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

That just means that is where they were. Why protest NYC cops being at their pride when there probably was none.

That is my point. If that Ugandan-Canadian woman wants to protest against police brutality in Ferguson or NYC she should do it there. What she did is the equivalent of attacking Iraq over 9/11. What she did makes no sense.

 

[TickTockMan]

That is my point. If that Ugandan-Canadian woman wants to protest against police brutality in Ferguson or NYC she should do it there. What she did is the equivalent of attacking Iraq over 9/11. What she did makes no sense.

Doesn't mean they don't mean it in a wider sense though. Most people that go and protest care more than just about their own little world.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Doesn't mean they don't mean it in a wider sense though. Most people that go and protest care more than just about their own little world.

But they explicitly protested the presence of EP, RCMP and Canadian military. None of which are known for brutality against neither gays nor blacks. No, this protest was a derailment, pure and simple. A brainstorm on acid gone wrong.