On-Topic Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

[kallipolis]

For the record, there is also a big difference between Snowden (who disclosed a specific piece of information, after he considered the potential harm to society of keeping it secret, and found the consequences of secrecy to be detrimental to society and alarming) and Manning (who was having a tantrum of his own, had no purpose or reasoned consideration behind his disclosure except to "get even," and did nothing to mitigate the effects of leaking information indiscriminately.)

Much supposition on your part....where's the evidence to support this assertion?

Or are you relying on character assassination damage control as practised by United States Army intelligence?

 

[JayHawk]

Even US law has something called Whistleblower Protection, because there is recognition that this kind of action may be necessary, ethical, and correct. The whole point is to encourage leaks of embarrassing or damaging information when it shows wrongdoing, government overreach, and to protect the individual from retaliation by the embarrassed government.

Exactly. Which is why the other FOUR NSA workers are not in jail after telling the world that the NSA was eavesdropping irresponsibly. Snowden didn't choose that route. He chose a route to damage the United States. He took four laptops in hopes of selling his secrets for protection. He got neither.

 

[Corny]

Oh for fuck's sake LL, start a thread about the German atrocities and take your pseudo-critcism there, I'll happily point out your fallacies and reading problems there as well. This is not the "but you did" thread, this is the "Edward Snowden" thread. Sometimes I really wonder how certain people make it through life. "Oh boss, yeah I fucked up but see, Mr. Smith did the same, so it's fine". Seriously, with so much fallacies, in ancient greece, you wouldn't even have been allowed to talk among adults.

But hey, here is one for your "but you did" line of thought. Not too long ago, the US announced (to threaten china) that "cyber attacks" and "espionage" will be counted as acts of war against the US. So I guess this implies that half of the world may now declare war againstg the US, right?

[edit]
JayHawk - you must have missed the "unfortunate" accidents and "suicides" from the last bunch of journalists and activists trying to leak certain secrets. I mean, well they need something else today, because the gay smear campaigns probably won't work today.

 

[bankside]

Much supposition on your part....where's the evidence to support this assertion?

Or are you relying on character assassination damage control as practised by United States Army intelligence?

Neither supposition nor character assassination. The distinction I draw is that Snowden revealed the existence of a specific, debatable, heretofore clandestine, intrusive government practice, while Manning unleashed an avalanche of unvetted, unfiltered, unedited, specific communications that covered matters from the mundane to the disturbing.

Manning wasn't exposing an act of government wrongdoing, he was exposing the government, in its practices right or wrong. I have read commentary on his state of mind and intentions in various publications where his purpose is evaluated as noble and his actions elevated to that of a principled defender of justice. Certainly that is the perspective advocated by his defence. But I don't find it compelling for the very reason that the information release was so vast and indiscriminate that it would of necessity undermine legitimate national security objectives as well as questionable ones. He didn't pick 5 examples of wrongdoing and expose them. He unlocked the gates to all who would enter.

That has been debated in other threads and my thoughts are there to read. I only reiterate my position on Manning here to dismiss the argument that defenders of Snowden are some kind of fringe element that don't recognise legitimate security interests and wouldn't recognise a traitor if they saw one. And to dismiss the ridiculously dangerous argument that questioning the motives of government makes someone into a tin-foil-hatted conspiracy theorist.

Whistleblowers in any country are well guided by an excellent piece of advice from an earlier American - an idea which I would count as one of America's gifts to the world:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

 

[Sausy]

Jay, those NSA whistleblowers get nowhere.... I don't know if Snowden has an agenda that is malevolent, but those who blow the whistle are treated like those who want the US to release what they know about UFO'S.... they get a polite, condescending nod at best and their concerns get thrown away in the trash and laughed off by the powers that be. Its gets NOWHERE.

 

[JayHawk]

JayHawk - you must have missed the "unfortunate" accidents and "suicides" from the last bunch of journalists and activists trying to leak certain secrets. I mean, well they need something else today,

"Those people should be shot [between the legs]," Snowden wrote in a January 2009 chat, according to The Washington Post.

At the time, Snowden was upset that The New York Times had reported on secret negotiations between the United States and Israel on how to handle a suspected Iranian nuclear program.

"Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus christ. They're like wikileaks," Snowden wrote in the chat. "You don't put that s— in the NEWSPAPER."

"They have a HISTORY of this s—," Snowden continued. "These are the same people who blew the whole 'we could listen to osama's cell phone' thing. The same people who screwed us on wiretapping. Over and over and over again."

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Interesting perspective huh?

BTW Bankside, there are three public whistle blowers who are perfectly fine and not incarcerated. Of course, they fully agree the info should have been leaked but feel Snowden went too far and will now pay the consequences. There is a significant difference between whistle blowing and selling secrets to the highest bidder. So why again did he steal four laptops? Why is secret data being slowly released? Because he is a common criminal.

BTW I agree with Snowden, leakers should be shot.

 

[JayHawk]

Jay, those NSA whistleblowers get nowhere.... I don't know if Snowden has an agenda that is malevolent, but those who blow the whistle are treated like those who want the US to release what they know about UFO'S.... they get a polite, condescending nod at best and their concerns get thrown away in the trash and laughed off by the powers that be. Its gets NOWHERE.

Oh I know, and the preponderance of people make it likely there is overreach. It still begs the question.... why steal four laptops of data and release it slowly?

 

[ChickenGuy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23138073

Edward Snowden 'applies for asylum in Russia'

US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has applied to Russia for political asylum, a Russian official says.

Foreign ministry consul Kim Shevchenko said the request was made on Sunday night. The Kremlin has made no comment.

I think the guy is a hero and deserves a medal, however, I cannot understand this.

He doesn't exactly do his case for freedom of speech and human rights any good by ending up in Putin's Russia.

Why on earth didn't they just take him to an anonymous airfield miles from Moscow and fly him out on some sort of uncharted Russian military flight or something? He could already have been in Venezuela or Ecuador. It isn't rocket science.

They could have smuggled him out. I cannot understand this apparent sudden inability to leave Russia.

 

[Telstra]

Oh for fuck's sake LL, start a thread about the German atrocities and take your pseudo-critcism there, I'll happily point out your fallacies and reading problems there as well. This is not the "but you did" thread, this is the "Edward Snowden" thread. Sometimes I really wonder how certain people make it through life. "Oh boss, yeah I fucked up but see, Mr. Smith did the same, so it's fine". Seriously, with so much fallacies, in ancient greece, you wouldn't even have been allowed to talk among adults.

But hey, here is one for your "but you did" line of thought. Not too long ago, the US announced (to threaten china) that "cyber attacks" and "espionage" will be counted as acts of war against the US. So I guess this implies that half of the world may now declare war againstg the US, right?

[edit]
JayHawk - you must have missed the "unfortunate" accidents and "suicides" from the last bunch of journalists and activists trying to leak certain secrets. I mean, well they need something else today, because the gay smear campaigns probably won't work today.

If you could give some/all the names would be great.

 

[JayHawk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23138073



I think the guy is a hero and deserves a medal, however, I cannot understand this.

He doesn't exactly do his case for freedom of speech and human rights any good by ending up in Putin's Russia.

Why on earth didn't they just take him to an anonymous airfield miles from Moscow and fly him out on some sort of uncharted Russian military flight or something? He could already have been in Venezuela or Ecuador. It isn't rocket science.

They could have smuggled him out. I cannot understand this apparent sudden inability to leave Russia.

The reason why is because he is not a hero; he is a base criminal who stole and used human rights as a smoke screen.

 

[Telstra]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23138073



I think the guy is a hero and deserves a medal, however, I cannot understand this.

He doesn't exactly do his case for freedom of speech and human rights any good by ending up in Putin's Russia.

Why on earth didn't they just take him to an anonymous airfield miles from Moscow and fly him out on some sort of uncharted Russian military flight or something? He could already have been in Venezuela or Ecuador. It isn't rocket science.

They could have smuggled him out. I cannot understand this apparent sudden inability to leave Russia.

Is that in the Russian interesting ? No
He is under Russian control now, how sad. He shouldn't have left Hong Kong in the first place if the US didn't force him to run.

 

[Telstra]

The reason why is because he is not a hero; he is a base criminal who stole and used human rights as a smoke screen.

You keep on saying "he is a criminal" so many times is nasty !!!
You should watch his first interview in Hong Kong again to refresh you mind.

 

[T-Rexx]

I think the guy is a hero and deserves a medal, however, I cannot understand this.

He doesn't exactly do his case for freedom of speech and human rights any good by ending up in Putin's Russia.

Why on earth didn't they just take him to an anonymous airfield miles from Moscow and fly him out on some sort of uncharted Russian military flight or something? He could already have been in Venezuela or Ecuador. It isn't rocket science.

They could have smuggled him out. I cannot understand this apparent sudden inability to leave Russia.

The "inability to leave Russia" is coming from Russia, not Snowden.

Snowden is now a personal prisoner of Putin, being kept for his political value.

He has the option of spending the rest of his life in a Russian prison, or spending the rest of his life as a Russian citizen.

 

[kallipolis]

Neither supposition nor character assassination. The distinction I draw is that Snowden revealed the existence of a specific, debatable, heretofore clandestine, intrusive government practice, while Manning unleashed an avalanche of unvetted, unfiltered, unedited, specific communications that covered matters from the mundane to the disturbing.

Manning wasn't exposing an act of government wrongdoing, he was exposing the government, in its practices right or wrong. I have read commentary on his state of mind and intentions in various publications where his purpose is evaluated as noble and his actions elevated to that of a principled defender of justice. Certainly that is the perspective advocated by his defence. But I don't find it compelling for the very reason that the information release was so vast and indiscriminate that it would of necessity undermine legitimate national security objectives as well as questionable ones. He didn't pick 5 examples of wrongdoing and expose them. He unlocked the gates to all who would enter.

On the contrary you're just repeating the Army prosecutor's line of attack against Manning repeated in the media and now regurgitated by you.

Your many words do not make a case against Manning....try again....when you read Manning's defence in the media.

 

[Telstra]

Is that in the Russian interest[STRIKE]ing[/STRIKE] ? No
He is under Russian control now, how sad. He shouldn't have left Hong Kong in the first place if the US didn't force him to run.

The edit button stop working too quickly.

 

[kallipolis]

The "inability to leave Russia" is coming from Russia, not Snowden.

Snowden is now a personal prisoner of Putin, being kept for his political value.

He has the option of spending the rest of his life in a Russian prison, or spending the rest of his life as a Russian citizen.

This chapter in Snowden's life has yet to be written. Let's not presume to know......it's more fun to wait and see....

There may well be more twists and turns to tantalise our interest.

 

[kallipolis]

The reason why is because he is not a hero; he is a base criminal who stole and used human rights as a smoke screen.

Because you say, so?

 

[JayHawk]

No because it is quite evident once he started simply selling secrets and joining oppressive regimes.

 

[Telstra]

The US should be smarter and should say to Snowden all are forgiven and please come home.
There won't be any charges against you, signed by the highest law court LOL

 

[kallipolis]

No because it is quite evident once he started simply selling secrets and joining oppressive regimes.

You have proof that Snowden SOLD national secrets and joined an oppressive regime?

You had better pass that evidence to the relevant prosecutor for your testimony will certainly ensure that Snowden is imprisoned for life.

Meantime...back on planet Earth...