Exprctations and Living Alone

[MattyMoonTonight]

Is it unrealistic to be a gay man and to want a genuine, serious relationship, and not want just loveless hookups?

 

[KaraBulut]

It's not a binary choice.

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

It sure feels like it is. From my perspective being on a dozen or so forums asking the same questions and inevitably aggravating everyone, it looks more like a party culture than being part of a sexual minority.

 

[songman]

This feels like an expression of frustration, rather than a real question. Perhaps you are in a more rural area where there are fewer examples, but in Minneapolis/St. Paul (since you are from Minnesota), there are many happily partnered or married gay couples. I don't live near Minnesota, and even I happen to know one such couple personally.

I think what KaraBulut means by saying it's not a binary choice is that many committed gay couples in long-term relationships also have agreements about being able to have hookups for sexual variety. Sure, there's a very active gay party culture, and some gay men in committed relationships even participate in it from time to time, but it's certainly not the only way gay men can and do relate to one another.

So if what you're primarily asking about is whether gay men can form "genuine serious relationships", the answer is, "Yes, of course, there are thousands of examples all over." So perhaps your frustration is borne of looking in the wrong places, or perhaps being in a location where it's harder to find. That's something you can change if you want to.

 

[KaraBulut]

This feels like an expression of frustration, rather than a real question. Perhaps you are in a more rural area where there are fewer examples, but in Minneapolis/St. Paul (since you are from Minnesota), there are many happily partnered or married gay couples. I don't live near Minnesota, and even I happen to know one such couple personally.

I think what KaraBulut means by saying it's not a binary choice is that many committed gay couples in long-term relationships also have agreements about being able to have hookups for sexual variety. Sure, there's a very active gay party culture, and some gay men in committed relationships even participate in it from time to time, but it's certainly not the only way gay men can and do relate to one another.

^You read my mind.

When I moved to a big city for the first time, one thing that surprised me was how many long-term couples there were. They owned homes together. They had businesses together. They parented fur babies together and a few were raising children together.

On the opposite end of the spectrum were the fast lane gays, mostly in their 20s, who were doing exactly what their straight counterparts were doing: partying and hooking up. But even in this group, there were couples who were dating, even if they were in open relationships.

One of the nice things about not having rules is that it has allowed the LGBT community to experiment and come up with their own rules about things like monogamy and long-term relationships. We have options. We don't have parents pressuring us to get married and make grandbabies. We can take our time, control our own destiny and do what feels right to each of us.

 

[KaraBulut]

It sure feels like it is. From my perspective being on a dozen or so forums asking the same questions and inevitably aggravating everyone, it looks more like a party culture than being part of a sexual minority.

There's a problem with addiction, in the late teen and 20-something crowd. It's really bad in the LGBT community. It goes through periods where it gets better but it always comes back.

If you go out to a gay bar, you might come away with the impression that all gay people are happy and having a great time. If you go out a lot, you might come away with the impression that everyone is an alcoholic and is into the PnP scene. If you're online, you're going to encounter more single gays who are on the prowl.

The LGBT community is so diverse that it is really hard to make generalizations. From my experience, most gay people are boring and increasingly ordinary. They have jobs. They have families. Their priorities might be a little different than straight people who have to spend a lot of money on raising children but even that doesn't hold given the number of LGBT people who are raising kids these days.

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

I've lived in my hometown my entire life, a hometown of less than 300. I know for a fact I'm the only gay within 100 miles, and I can't let anyone around here know that. I don't have the time or funds to drive down to the cities just to be mocked and made fun of for being an ugly country boy.

I just can't see how people can be both their "authentic self" or have "found their tribe" and can be happy at the same time. Those two don't seem synonymous to me.

Happiness isn't realistic, it's not an emotion for adults. That's what I've learned. And over the past few years I've only seen the LGBT community just act more like a party culture than being a sexual minority.

I'm losing coherence because I am frustrated about this. These things are either unrealistic or impossible to achieve. I can't believe other people have achieved them.

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

I wanted to be the kind of person that had friends and parties and was well-liked and actually had some kind of personality, but then you learn that you have to grow up. You have to be an adult. And that means giving up on things that aren't feasible. It means making independent decisions for responsibility. And

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

People keep telling me that happiness is possible and that people can be happy, but I can't believe it. It feels like an underhanded trick.

 

[KaraBulut]

I wanted to be the kind of person that had friends and parties and was well-liked and actually had some kind of personality, but then you learn that you have to grow up. You have to be an adult. And that means giving up on things that aren't feasible. It means making independent decisions for responsibility. And

People keep telling me that happiness is possible and that people can be happy, but I can't believe it. It feels like an underhanded trick.

One of my friends who struggles with depression thinks of her depression as a hungry beast that is always wanting to be fed.

When she doesn't want to get out of bed, she knows it's because the depression wants to be fed. When friends invite her to go out with them, she goes because she knows that the beast gets fed when she stays home and doesn't socialize. When she's looking in the mirror and all she can see is how much weight she gained over the holidays or when she focuses upon her imperfections, she knows that the beast is hungry. When she's spiraling in negativity, she knows it's because the depression is really, really hungry.

On the other hand, even when she doesn't want to take her meds because of the side effects, she knows that the meds get rid of the beast's demands. When she stops listening to the negative voices in her head, she knows that the beast hates that she's not listening. When she keeps her appointment with her therapist, she knows that it helps to starve the beast.

You've identified that you're struggling with depression and a lot of what you're saying is what my friend would describe as "feeding the beast". It's really going to be up to you to eliminate the obstacles and to get the help that shuts the beast up, or at least drowns out his pleas to be fed.

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

One of my friends who struggles with depression thinks of her depression as a hungry beast that is always wanting to be fed.

When she doesn't want to get out of bed, she knows it's because the depression wants to be fed. When friends invite her to go out with them, she goes because she knows that the beast gets fed when she stays home and doesn't socialize. When she's looking in the mirror and all she can see is how much weight she gained over the holidays or when she focuses upon her imperfections, she knows that the beast is hungry. When she's spiraling in negativity, she knows it's because the depression is really, really hungry.

On the other hand, even when she doesn't want to take her meds because of the side effects, she knows that the meds get rid of the beast's demands. When she stops listening to the negative voices in her head, she knows that the beast hates that she's not listening. When she keeps her appointment with her therapist, she knows that it helps to starve the beast.

You've identified that you're struggling with depression and a lot of what you're saying is what my friend would describe as "feeding the beast". It's really going to be up to you to eliminate the obstacles and to get the help that shuts the beast up, or at least drowns out his pleas to be fed.

Yes, I'm understanding that. I'm learning that the more I understand it, the less I want to try to change; it's easier to gripe and argue that the world isn't fair, the world is ugly, and the reason I am where I am now is because of my own actions (or inaction). Over the past couple days, I've been trying to change my self-image and my perspective on the LGBT community, which I know is already a bit skewed. It's very slow going, but I'm trying.

 

[Hornypossum]

I've lived in my hometown my entire life, a hometown of less than 300. I know for a fact I'm the only gay within 100 miles, and I can't let anyone around here know that. I don't have the time or funds to drive down to the cities just to be mocked and made fun of for being an ugly country boy.

I just can't see how people can be both their "authentic self" or have "found their tribe" and can be happy at the same time. Those two don't seem synonymous to me.

Happiness isn't realistic, it's not an emotion for adults. That's what I've learned. And over the past few years I've only seen the LGBT community just act more like a party culture than being a sexual minority.

I'm losing coherence because I am frustrated about this. These things are either unrealistic or impossible to achieve. I can't believe other people have achieved them.

The majority of your situation is pretty unfamiliar to me, but one thing I do feel qualified to suggest is finding a way to move out of your hometown.
Moving is expensive, time-consuming and may actually be impossible in your particular situation (I obviously don't know enough about you to know that).
The reputation we build with others the expectations placed upon it by both it and them can be utterly crushing, and that weight is absolutely the strongest in situations where you've lived in a tiny town your entire life where everyone knows everyone.
Moving away to a more populated area grants you the opportunity and space to escape that box your hometown community built for you and keeps you in. You don't even have to move out of your state. Even a town of a couple hundred thousand would open whole worlds. You can find a social organization that's accepting (maybe centered around a hobby), meet people who can help you socially adapt to bigger city life and who will also probably help you get to know your way around, all while just being the you you want to be without the baggage of who the community has decided you are, simply because they haven't decided yet. In a larger city, I'm sure you can also find other gay guys who are looking for a serious relationship.
I know it's easy to lob free advice over the Internet, and I fully acknowledge that there are a whole bunch of reasons why this particular advice could be utterly worthless (for example, a farmer can't farm in downtown Minneapolis), but moving away from the admittedly very good community I had growing up has absolutely enabled my personal growth in ways I'd have never believed existed.
No matter how lovingly your hometown built the box they've put you in, it's still a box. You can't spread your wings in a box.

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

The majority of your situation is pretty unfamiliar to me, but one thing I do feel qualified to suggest is finding a way to move out of your hometown.
Moving is expensive, time-consuming and may actually be impossible in your particular situation (I obviously don't know enough about you to know that).
The reputation we build with others the expectations placed upon it by both it and them can be utterly crushing, and that weight is absolutely the strongest in situations where you've lived in a tiny town your entire life where everyone knows everyone.
Moving away to a more populated area grants you the opportunity and space to escape that box your hometown community built for you and keeps you in. You don't even have to move out of your state. Even a town of a couple hundred thousand would open whole worlds. You can find a social organization that's accepting (maybe centered around a hobby), meet people who can help you socially adapt to bigger city life and who will also probably help you get to know your way around, all while just being the you you want to be without the baggage of who the community has decided you are, simply because they haven't decided yet. In a larger city, I'm sure you can also find other gay guys who are looking for a serious relationship.
I know it's easy to lob free advice over the Internet, and I fully acknowledge that there are a whole bunch of reasons why this particular advice could be utterly worthless (for example, a farmer can't farm in downtown Minneapolis), but moving away from the admittedly very good community I had growing up has absolutely enabled my personal growth in ways I'd have never believed existed.
No matter how lovingly your hometown built the box they've put you in, it's still a box. You can't spread your wings in a box.

Thank you for saying that. Months ago, I would have agreed with the first line in your last paragraph, that advice over the internet doesn't often qualify as advice; even though I've been chasing for help with my situation on more than a couple forums for years, I still would have balked at it because I could have argued that it isn't my fault. My fear of the world and every possible awful thing that could happen in a given day isn't the result of others' actions and behaviors, it's my own, and I think I'm coming to terms with that.

It's a nice place here and I love this place, but at the same time it's a place where no one knows I'm gay, no one knows I like dressing up or doing other things that the aging lumberjacks or railroad workers around here are disgusted by. I'm sure some of my coworkers have formed suspicions over a few jokes and maybe a couple shirts they've seen me in, but other than that, nobody knows, and I didn't think that would hurt more than everyone knowing the truth. I'm old enough to remember the Matthew Shephard case and that always pops into my mind when the idea of telling someone shows up. Even the few times I traveled to a gay bar and other places, it still felt like a thing that should be kept hidden like a dirty secret. I don't know why I feel that way.

My current plans still keep me here at the moment, but I'm setting aside some funds a bit at a time for the move, probably later in the year. I wish I could tell my younger self that the fear of embarrassment or the fear of people knowing who I am will never feel worse than the fear of being unseen, being forgotten, being alone wherever I go, and wishing I had done and been more when I had more years. 33 isn't old (the geologist in me will argue that even a few thousand years isn't all that old), but it's old enough to feel remorse at having remained a wallflower because the familiarity of depression and negative thoughts was too enticing, too much of a narcotic. I always show up here online when I'm in a lowest point during a depressive cycle, but I'm gradually getting a better handle on it. My only real concern is the job market in the city; like many at the moment, I hate my current job to death but it has job security. At least for the time being.

I've fantasized about making a road trip to a city, any city, but I'm always worried that the image I'd have in my mind doesn't exist there anymore. The night-loving crowd in all those vampire movies in the 1980s-1990s are long gone, and the absinthe-drenched, tragically beautiful queer gardens that Poppy Z. Brite used to write about probably got washed away with Hurricane Katrina. I know this is just more negativity talking because it's my escape route from anxiety, as ironic as that sounds. I've been chasing those kinds of deeply connected communities where anyone can be a friend or a loved one, the kinds that the internet and the platform decay of social media and dating/hookup apps have been killing off for the past couple decades.

Sorry for talking too much. I needed to get it off my chest. I'm slowly getting better, very slowly, and I'm trying to be a bit more proactive and expressive in little ways.

 

[Hornypossum]

Thank you for saying that. Months ago, I would have agreed with the first line in your last paragraph, that advice over the internet doesn't often qualify as advice; even though I've been chasing for help with my situation on more than a couple forums for years, I still would have balked at it because I could have argued that it isn't my fault. My fear of the world and every possible awful thing that could happen in a given day isn't the result of others' actions and behaviors, it's my own, and I think I'm coming to terms with that.

It's a nice place here and I love this place, but at the same time it's a place where no one knows I'm gay, no one knows I like dressing up or doing other things that the aging lumberjacks or railroad workers around here are disgusted by. I'm sure some of my coworkers have formed suspicions over a few jokes and maybe a couple shirts they've seen me in, but other than that, nobody knows, and I didn't think that would hurt more than everyone knowing the truth. I'm old enough to remember the Matthew Shephard case and that always pops into my mind when the idea of telling someone shows up. Even the few times I traveled to a gay bar and other places, it still felt like a thing that should be kept hidden like a dirty secret. I don't know why I feel that way.

My current plans still keep me here at the moment, but I'm setting aside some funds a bit at a time for the move, probably later in the year. I wish I could tell my younger self that the fear of embarrassment or the fear of people knowing who I am will never feel worse than the fear of being unseen, being forgotten, being alone wherever I go, and wishing I had done and been more when I had more years. 33 isn't old (the geologist in me will argue that even a few thousand years isn't all that old), but it's old enough to feel remorse at having remained a wallflower because the familiarity of depression and negative thoughts was too enticing, too much of a narcotic. I always show up here online when I'm in a lowest point during a depressive cycle, but I'm gradually getting a better handle on it. My only real concern is the job market in the city; like many at the moment, I hate my current job to death but it has job security. At least for the time being.

I've fantasized about making a road trip to a city, any city, but I'm always worried that the image I'd have in my mind doesn't exist there anymore. The night-loving crowd in all those vampire movies in the 1980s-1990s are long gone, and the absinthe-drenched, tragically beautiful queer gardens that Poppy Z. Brite used to write about probably got washed away with Hurricane Katrina. I know this is just more negativity talking because it's my escape route from anxiety, as ironic as that sounds. I've been chasing those kinds of deeply connected communities where anyone can be a friend or a loved one, the kinds that the internet and the platform decay of social media and dating/hookup apps have been killing off for the past couple decades.

Sorry for talking too much. I needed to get it off my chest. I'm slowly getting better, very slowly, and I'm trying to be a bit more proactive and expressive in little ways.

Venting helps, even if you know that nobody will ever read it (not the case here, just saying it still helps).
I'll tell you that you're right to think that the idea you have of a city or any place you haven't been is NOT the actual place, but I'm going to spin that around and tell you that's why you SHOULD travel! The world around us is an incredible and complex place, filled with both infinite wonders and tragedies. Please understand that while I will NEVER endorse toxic positivity and absolutely agree that bad things happen and it's okay to react naturally to them and take time to process how they make us feel, that if we can choose to approach things by looking for the wonder, joy and beauty in them we will definitely see more if those things.
Travel is pretty safe in the US, all things considered. It might be good to plan a trip to a big LGBT community event in an accepting city, where you can see how people live without needing to hide. I can promise it'll be a shock to the system, b but if you look for the beauty in it instead of focusing on how it doesn't work for where you are now, you might find yourself with new perspective and renewed vigor in regards to your own situation.
Finally, depression is no joke. It's cooking for people to brush it off with things like "it's all in your head", but that's kinda like saying you don't need to worry about a killer breaking into your home because he's already in the room with you. Consider looking into therapy and/or treatment. Getting help when we need it isn't a weakness; rather, community is perhaps humanity's greatest advantage in this wonderful but still unforgiving world.

 

[MattyMoonTonight]

Venting helps, even if you know that nobody will ever read it (not the case here, just saying it still helps).
I'll tell you that you're right to think that the idea you have of a city or any place you haven't been is NOT the actual place, but I'm going to spin that around and tell you that's why you SHOULD travel! The world around us is an incredible and complex place, filled with both infinite wonders and tragedies. Please understand that while I will NEVER endorse toxic positivity and absolutely agree that bad things happen and it's okay to react naturally to them and take time to process how they make us feel, that if we can choose to approach things by looking for the wonder, joy and beauty in them we will definitely see more if those things.
Travel is pretty safe in the US, all things considered. It might be good to plan a trip to a big LGBT community event in an accepting city, where you can see how people live without needing to hide. I can promise it'll be a shock to the system, b but if you look for the beauty in it instead of focusing on how it doesn't work for where you are now, you might find yourself with new perspective and renewed vigor in regards to your own situation.
Finally, depression is no joke. It's cooking for people to brush it off with things like "it's all in your head", but that's kinda like saying you don't need to worry about a killer breaking into your home because he's already in the room with you. Consider looking into therapy and/or treatment. Getting help when we need it isn't a weakness; rather, community is perhaps humanity's greatest advantage in this wonderful but still unforgiving world.

I hope so; I want to believe that trying to see and look for the positive things will at least change this outlook equilibrium, which has been leaning to the bad for what feels like the moment consciousness started. I don't remember that last time I was genuinely happy, and even list-making or web-searching things that I hope would lead to it doesn't help much, but I want to try.

After I came back from that trip last year, that was when Minneapolis was having its Pride Festival, which apparently was the largest it had been in years. I wanted to go to that as well but I just got cold feet at the last minute. Part of it was being unable to sleep and I didn't want to drive so groggy in the morning, but part of it really was just more fear - fear of rejection from people I sought acceptance from, and fear of having another hope become disillusionment. Everywhere I look now, it becomes more and more apparent that hopelessness is just pervasive everywhere, and everybody would just rather feel hopeless than try to make friends or have some kind of relationships. You look anywhere online and you see so many people saying "Dating/Making Friends isn't worth it," "Trying to make things work is impossible," a million other things. I'm getting off track from the original point. I'm trying to say I picked a bad time in history to be a gay person. That's a very petulant and selfish thing to say comparatively, but it's how I feel at the moment. At a time when I'm finally starting to try, the world has given into apathy, and every aspect of life feels like dying, especially community.

The LGBT community already has been dealing with infighting and conflicts externally and internally for years, and part of me keeps wondering, from a United States perspective, why did we even fight for gay rights in the first place if it led to all this? Just deeper isolation, inability to respect each other, contempt for honest communication, and everything?

Right before I logged on, I was hit with this wave of wondering where I would find the permission needed to be the gay person I want to be or do things around here that heteronormative guys just don't do, and then wondering why I needed that permission. I've been wrestling with it. I'm making plans to renew visits to my therapist, or maybe one that actually does work with LGBT issues (I know those ones are all down closer to the cities, of course), and other therapeutic practices like transcranial magnetic stimulation. I'm just worried that it's too late already.