Faggotty Me!

[fetaby]

I canz do it too!

MW:
You are not examining the very likely possibility that if Gays had started the Gay Rights Movement and pushed for it with respect to following social norms in order to relate more to heterosexuals, that we would be very likely much further along in the process than we are today.

Me: Refer back, page 2 I believe, Mattachine Society. As was explained, they followed your approach and it went nowhere until they joined up with more colorfull effeminate factions. Ignore this? Again?


MW: Again, stuck in the world of ideology and not the Real World, as I have pointed out.

Me: If we are talking about change, everythings ideology. How it is now, reality.
How we want it to be, ideology. Your insistance that the flames be lowered in order to promote the changes you deem necessary for the gay rights movement, also ideology. Pot meet Kettle.

MW: Again, you may WANT the same rights as Straights, however as it stands right now, you AREN'T entitled to them. If you were, you would have them.

Me: BS, I'm calling it. As Americans, we are entitiled to the same rights given to anyone else, no one is supposed to have more rights than anyone else. All men created equal and all. Whoa, wait a minute. So do you think we aren't equal?

MW: Therefore, it kind of makes sense to me that if you want something that the other 90% of the population has the power to give you, you should really respect the social norms established by the MAJORITY of the population.

Me: One. The power doesn't lie within the 90%. It lies with you. The moment you see yourself as an equal, you will be equal. It's then up to you to convince the 90% if you want. Two. Respecting social norms is tantamount to ignoring the differences that created the situations in the first place. At every point in history civil rights advancement was accomplished by rebukking the social norms. And being loud about it. Reality.

MW: If people simply acted "how they feel" out in public, chances are that we would have a lot more altercations between people, due to household factors.

Me: WTF is a household factor?
The opposite of acting "how you feel" is repression. You want gays to be repressed? Aren't we repressed enough? Aren't we actually oppressed?

MW: However, that does not transpire because we have social norms in our society that we all follow, for the good of society.

Me: The good of society isn't really all that good to us. That's why we want the changes everyone here is writing about, including yourself.

MW: Let me ask you this much, since you like to be idealistic. Do you think you could simply go out and be yourself in places like Iran or Afghanistan, without there being a negative response to what you are doing?

Me: Huh? This isn't about the society in Iran or Afghanistan. Why are we going there? I thought we were talking about the negative responses here.

MW: Why is it that Blacks have advanced their status in the social rungs of society quicker than Gays? It's because Blacks act civilized and can respect the social norms of society.

Me: So, it was a social norm to hose blacks down with high pressure fire hoses and release dogs to attack them? But that was before they got the rights they were fighting for.


I think you will never concede any of your opinions until equality and acceptance is actually achieved. Think of it this way and I'll be done here,

If you think rolling over, and playing nice, and agreeing, and conforming to the social norms started and perpetuated by straight people is the right thing to do cause they are the majority and they seemingly control everything;













why have you systematically and passionately denied the truth, redirected, ignored, and outright opposed the majority of posters replying to you their views in this thread? The exact behaviour you find distressing, disgusting and abhorrent. Please take some of your own advice. Respect the social norms of gay society.

 

[MystikWizard]

I canz do it too!

MW:
You are not examining the very likely possibility that if Gays had started the Gay Rights Movement and pushed for it with respect to following social norms in order to relate more to heterosexuals, that we would be very likely much further along in the process than we are today.

Me: Refer back, page 2 I believe, Mattachine Society. As was explained, they followed your approach and it went nowhere until they joined up with more colorfull effeminate factions. Ignore this? Again?

Have you ever heard of the phrases "Right Place ... Right Time" ... and "2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right?"


What the Queens did was make the presence known of Homosexuals out there. That does not necessarily mean that in the year 2009, that this is the best approach to take in a more advanced time period.

Now, everyone knows that Gays are out there and comprise approximately 7-10% of the population. Okay. Good. Step 1 accomplished. Now Step 2 is actually reaching out to the other 90% of the population so that they can get a better understanding of us and how we came to "be Gay".

One can either accomplish that by having serious heart to heart conversations with people of faith, to appeal to their emotions and sense of morality .... or one can walk down the street in a parade doing lewd sex acts, dressing in drag, and carrying dildos and vibrators.

MW: Again, stuck in the world of ideology and not the Real World, as I have pointed out.

Me: If we are talking about change, everythings ideology. How it is now, reality.
How we want it to be, ideology. Your insistance that the flames be lowered in order to promote the changes you deem necessary for the gay rights movement, also ideology. Pot meet Kettle.

Incorrect.

I can assure you that my feet are more so grounded in reality and have a better assessment of the current reality of the situation, as opposed to my counterpart.

You can be idealistic all you want. However, as pointed out, you simply can not go from Point A to Point Z without making stops at each of the letters in between.

MW: Again, you may WANT the same rights as Straights, however as it stands right now, you AREN'T entitled to them. If you were, you would have them.

Me: BS, I'm calling it. As Americans, we are entitled to the same rights given to anyone else, no one is supposed to have more rights than anyone else. All men created equal and all. Whoa, wait a minute. So do you think we aren't equal?

According to current Law, evidently not. Which is why the laws need to be changed state by state. Yes, I feel we do have a right to the same rights and benefits of Straights. However, as law currently dictates, apparently we do not. My point was that it would be a far more effective approach to maintain positive relationships with the people who can make it possible for us, rather than intentionally trying to tell them to "Fuck Off" by making some sort of ridiculous statement. Would you agree or disagree?

MW: Therefore, it kind of makes sense to me that if you want something that the other 90% of the population has the power to give you, you should really respect the social norms established by the MAJORITY of the population.

Me: One. The power doesn't lie within the 90%. It lies with you.

No. The power lies with the 90%. That is what living in a Republic is all about.

The moment you see yourself as an equal, you will be equal. It's then up to you to convince the 90% if you want.

Last time I checked my math, 10% DOES NOT equal 90%. Try telling the people who voted for John McCain when he didn't become President, that their voices were equal to, if not greater than the majority of the country who voted for Barack Obama.

Nice attempt at distorting the reality of the situation, though.

Two. Respecting social norms is tantamount to ignoring the differences that created the situations in the first place. At every point in history civil rights advancement was accomplished by rebukking the social norms. And being loud about it. Reality.

You can be loud about it, alright. But you can be loud about it in both a positive way and a negative way. I would simply rather be loud about it in a positive way, while staying in the confines of respecting social norms. Why? Because I think it has a greater chance of resonating with the 90% of the population that is Straight, as opposed to telling those voters to "kiss my ass".

If you want to go out in the street:

1) Being accepted as being Gay by the majority of the public
2) Being able to get married
3) Being entitled to the same benefits as Straight Couples
and
4) Dress and act how you want ... if that means wearing a dress and lipstick in public, while holding your husband's hand in one arm, and a Dildo in the other arm ....

then it would be wise to accomplish the first task, first. It's called prioritizing.

You want to be accepted being in Drag, being an overly Effeminate Queen .... that's great. But you also want to be accepted, be able to get married, and all the other stuff with it.

So instead of "Fucking shit up" like the person you are defending, go in stages.


Did Blacks all of a sudden go from being Slaves to being able to vote, have Affirmative Action, and be able to live amongst Whites as equals? Or did the movement occur in stages?


There is a reason Blacks are much more widely accepted in society, as opposed to Gays. Gays are too disorganized, and expect too much too soon, with too little disregard to the rest of the population.

MW: If people simply acted "how they feel" out in public, chances are that we would have a lot more altercations between people, due to household factors.

Me: WTF is a household factor?
The opposite of acting "how you feel" is repression. You want gays to be repressed? Aren't we repressed enough? Aren't we actually oppressed?

Household factors could be family problems at home. Meaning, if people simply did whatever the Hell they wanted to do and acted however they wanted to act, with respect to the argument regarding social norms and expectations .... chances are that the negativity from people would lead to a far more confrontational society if people allowed their negative emotions to take over in public, if they brought their household laundry with them to work, and in public, in general.

Again, change comes in stages. Something you do not want to accept. However, something Blacks accepted and the reason they are held in higher regard than Gays at this point in time. The sooner you accept that, the sooner we will be on our way to full acceptance much faster than what it is currently taking.

MW: However, that does not transpire because we have social norms in our society that we all follow, for the good of society.

Me: The good of society isn't really all that good to us. That's why we want the changes everyone here is writing about, including yourself.

And as stated, there are good approaches to bringing about that change. And then there are negative approaches to bringing about that change.


The key is that we need more Gay Teens and Adults who are comfortable coming out. Because once they take that step, they can then educate the adults and tell them about their life story about how they came to be who they are. It is imperative that Gay people feel comfortable about coming out, which is a critical first step.

But in order to reach that step, we have to make it as easy as possible for Gays to come out. And this is largely dependent upon how Straights, such as parents, peers, co-workers, relatives, etc. view Gays. All of this is intertwined with each other.

The bottom line is that Straights MUST HAVE a more positive impression of Gay people, in order to encourage more people to come out. That has to be accomplished first and foremost. So the question should be, "How can we make a more positive impression on Straights, so that they will be considered more accepting to Gays, so they won't have as harsh reactions to people they know who have a desire to come out?"

You have to work intelligently and in stages, instead of going from A to Z, and "Fucking shit up" as stated earlier.

MW: Let me ask you this much, since you like to be idealistic. Do you think you could simply go out and be yourself in places like Iran or Afghanistan, without there being a negative response to what you are doing?

Me: Huh? This isn't about the society in Iran or Afghanistan. Why are we going there? I thought we were talking about the negative responses here.

Good. I'm glad you asked.

Iran and Afghanistan were brought up as a point. Just as Middle Eastern culture currently has its own set of established norms in their countries, we have the same here in the United States. Now yes, it is unquestionably far more progressive than in the Middle East, HOWEVER, do not take for granted and arrogantly dismiss the norms that are in place in this country. And that is what I feel a lot of Gays are doing, which is slowing the process for Gay Rights, as opposed to actually helping it move along quicker.

The Middle East has norms that are respected at this point in time. So does the United States.

It is possible to change those norms, however the key is not to be radical in doing so, but rather going through a methodical process.

MW: Why is it that Blacks have advanced their status in the social rungs of society quicker than Gays? It's because Blacks act civilized and can respect the social norms of society.

Me: So, it was a social norm to hose blacks down with high pressure fire hoses and release dogs to attack them? But that was before they got the rights they were fighting for.

Nice dodge.

I'll repeat the question since you didn't want to answer it.

Why is it that Blacks have advanced their status in the social rungs of society quicker than Gays?

why have you systematically and passionately denied the truth, redirected, ignored, and outright opposed the majority of posters replying to you their views in this thread? The exact behaviour you find distressing, disgusting and abhorrent. Please take some of your own advice. Respect the social norms of gay society.

First of all, I am not sure the opinions on this Forum may necessarily represent the majority of Gay People, in general. The ones who are out, not out, and the ones who are currently struggling with their own sexual identities.

And secondly, even if my opinions went against the majority opinions of Gays, that still doesn't mean that the ideologies of the majority of Gays are necessarily "right".

This is not "All for one and one for All". And this is what I talked about in preaching Individualism.

We may all share a common trait, and may agree on the rights that Gays are entitled to .... however that does not mean that we all share the same ideologies and viewpoints of how Gays should conduct themselves in public. And nor am I going to be lumped into one particular category that supposedly does.

 

[gdude30]

Okay this has gone on long enough.

*takes out the giant Dildo*

You go on and on and on about dildos this dildos that. Straight people this, norm this, society that, the posters view of life being unrealistic, making up some statistics or stereotypes and us ruining changes for gay marriage, rights, and us needing to kiss ass to the straights I mean met their MORAL level and please them.

Wake up.

I don't think you realize how much has changed. You did at least make not of gay rights and pointed out how it helped back then but now we need to be normal and not carrying dildos to get more rights and to be accepted by society.

We are already a lot more accepted by society than you think. And not just for "Straight" gays (lawlz) even other gay subcultures are accepted as well.

One thing you don't understand too is a community. And I feel bad that you are so quick to reject that. Do you know what a community is? Do you know how good it feels to be in a community? Do you know how good it feels to be accepted by a community and where it almost feels like an extended family?

I don't know you so you might. But with the way you talk about the gay community you might never know how it does feel to be part of the gay community.

You might never understand that the whole point of Gay Pride is not to go around fucking around, wearing Dildo hats, carrying Dildo wants, wearing a Dildo under the dress, wearing a Dildo shirt, Dildo Dildo Dildo Dildo Dildo Dildo Dildo Dildo Dildo by the way did I mention Dildo?

Do you secretly have a fetish with dildos or something. It's been kind of annoying hearing you repeating it over again. And darnit you are ruining a fetish for me. Damn you

But aside from that. The point resulted from stonewall and was to celebrate. I'd like to say similar to the 4th of july but they both have different origins and it's not quite..well.

That's up for each person to decide I suppose. The point is the freedom and rights that we have gained. Why not celebrate. Why not wear our dildos, leather, drag, no shirt, jocks, or whatever for ONE DAY or a weekend.

Straights get EVERY DAY to be themselves really. Pride is our day. So yes we are gonna wear what the fuck we want and do what the fuck we want. And honestly I don't care anymore if the media focuses only on the drag queens or the feminine guys despite the fact that there are QUITE a few heterosexuals at pride. Because it's our fucking day and damn right we deserve to have fun and celebrate.

The religious nuts sometimes come and try to ruin our parade (Literally). Is it because we act odd, like perverts, different from society?

Hell yeah. Of course it is. But it's MOSTLY because of their beliefs. People choose what they want to believe in. And it's our beliefs that allow us to be out, to trust that others can understand or try to understand what we are and it's our choice to come out and let all hell loose during pride.

It's also because. WE HAVE THE BALLS TO DO SO!

And yes this isn't a perfect world. Some people are gonna watch the tv and go "Ugh there go the fairies again. Damn I hate gays" and people are still going to be stupid and say things like "That's so gay" and people are still going to think of us as perverts, idiots, freaks, and etc. People are people.

But what we are doing. Doesn't it mirror the straight life. What about when jocks get together and have a frat party. They wear a toga, they get drunk, they do stupid stuff. If you think pride isn't that great than what do you think of other celebrations?

And the fact that you think goths and artists get a pass because they aren't trying to "do" or "change anything"

Some of those goths if not most. Their style and attitude and what some of them are representing is a "FUCK SOCIETY" which is exactly what we do sometimes. And they get a pass because they wear all black and wear eyeliner and make up while we dress in rainbow and wear eyeliner and make up sometimes?

I'm going to get to the main point right now. The main point that YOU and tons of others are missing about the point of leather, drag, feminine, waving dildos, and etc.

THERE IS MEANING BEHIND IT.

Drag. What do you think that is? What do you think it TAKES for someone to be a drag queen. Obviously someone who is devoted, someone who has confidence and balls, someone who is strong, and someone who can handle pressure and get up on stage and do their thing.

And with feminine men. It takes strength for them to actually BE Feminine and not masculine and BE who they are. By realizing what you are and who you are and accepting it you are not admitting defeat, you are not giving up, you are facing something and by facing fears, guilt, or uncertainty you sometimes become stronger. They could try to act masculine just to please others. But they'd rather be themselves.

And for the bears with this world of MUSCLE, ABS, SKINNY, SMOOTH, SEXY, and them being large, having bellys, fur, and being the exact opposite they form a brotherhood type thing with other bears and find their strength by forming bonds with others. And than after that they go around shirtless showing their sexy and furry bodies :O. For a skinny guy he could take his shirt off and no one would care. But if a big furry guy does it a lot of people go "EWWW"

And finally leatherman. So what if the whips and chains look scary. So what if some slaves and masters are sadistic or masochists. It takes integrity, honor, discipline, and strength to be a slave or a sir and to even be out there representing the leather community. Even if you do take off the leather they are still leathermen and they still have the heart of leather and they still represent their community. But they take the STRENGTH that they have gotten from their community and apply it to other things such as work, social life, politics, or whatever.

Several subcultures of the gay community represent archetypes. So in other words. While society looks at these people like these are freaks or a carnival act. There is so much strength, insight, leadership skills, courage, integrity, honor, and dedication, and love in these men and women.

AND THAT IS ALSO AN ADVANTAGE OF BEING IN THE GAY COMMUNITY. As humans we do sort of depend on other humans. We seek acceptance and for the most part are social. And when we find a community or group of people who understand us they can sometimes bring out strength and potential that we never knew was in us. And than we give back to the community and bring out the strength and courage in others.

It's a circle. You apparently don't understand it and know nothing about it. And if you don't stop with your god dammed hellbent view on us not doing things right than maybe you should do it your way.

You obviously are a stubborn one and you haven't given up on your argument. It's clear you have strength. I don't represent the gay community as a whole but as an individual with the way you are going and doing things you will never be accepted into it.

We really might not be doing things right. But by criticizing us, insulting us, and completely ignoring what we've done and not even understanding what we are about. You don't have a right to judge us.

You do say that things like peace, harmony, and working together are just an ideal world and not reality. Than how about making it reality. How about stop giving into the pressure of what society is trying to tell you. How about stop judging everyone and assuming that the gay movement isn't doing things the right way and think about how things should be done and try even submitting ideas to them, talking to them, or even working with them.

Really. The only reason why peace and equality are such a distant dream are because of clash of ideals and beliefs and people being dead set on that things have to be done a certain way and that everything is black and white.

You need to wake up and try to look at things in a different way.

And you don't need to point out that I haven't come up with a solution to wearing drag and tossing around dildos and going to pride. I never said that any of that was a solution. But we have a right to do so. I don't know what the solution is. I'm too young to know and I might never know. But I do know that there are people out there who are trying. Metta is one of them.

Yes it is IDEALS to reach everyone. Not everyone can be reached though and not everyone's minds can be changed. Regardless of what we do. Just because some people are SO GOD DAMNED STUBBORN. You can't please everyone.

Alright I'm done now. I just thought I had to at least point out the fact that drag and the sub cultures do have meaning behind them which are missed. Sorry for the long rant though. Can't help it sometimes. Anyways just think about what I said Mystik Wizard.

Have a good day.

 

[fetaby]

MW: And secondly, even if my opinions went against the majority opinions of Gays, that still doesn't mean that the ideologies of the majority of Gays are necessarily "right".

This is not "All for one and one for All". And this is what I talked about in preaching Individualism.

We may all share a common trait, and may agree on the rights that Gays are entitled to .... however that does not mean that we all share the same ideologies and viewpoints of how Gays should conduct themselves in public. And nor am I going to be lumped into one particular category that supposedly does.

Me: Until we all get the rights and acceptance of society that we crave, do you honestly think singling out and dismissing those different from you is going to help? The whole point of all for one, and one for all is for people of differing opinions to set aside their prejudices and fight together towards their common goal. Since your so dead set on looking at numbers, subtracting out any of our 10% by saying they are being counterproductive is foolish. The problems encountered by any of the 10% belong to everyone in the 10%. While you may not agree on how they do things, the fact is they are doing things. Until those things get done, you can't just go your own way. You will be forever connected to them by that common trait. You are the centipede's backward facing leg. Me thinks you don't want to be part of the centipede at all and would run away if you could when the spiders come out. I'm done, I've got no more left to give. I respect you for so blindingly following your beliefs. (your passion and conviction could be very productive) But I'm amputating you from my centipede until you figure out that while all humans aren't gay, all gays are human and none of us need to become the lapdogs of society. Silly faggot.

 

[ABoyNamedSue]

I rather be in a parade with a drag queen holding a Dildo and not being afraid of who the hell she is than I would be with some one who is so scared that the societal norms of society have regulated us to this and that role and we cannot go beyond them. To think if we were to be stuck to roles regulated to us by society woman wouldn't have the right to vote, slavery would still exist, and so forth and so on.

The idea that societal norms are not a living and breathing entity is a bit short sided. The norms of society change constantly if not by the second. Hell, all we have to do is look at popular media to see this.

To take away the diversity of our community would be paramount to cultural genocide. As gay people we have one thing very few communities have. We have people from every race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sex, and the list goes on. If we were to take away this diversity our community would be a shell of its former self.

We have an opportunity to change the world by simply embracing the wide diversity of our community and showing we can coexist with one another peacefully. We could be the shinning light. On how a truely diversified community works. However, we are so caught up on infighting that we have not made any real progress in I do not know how many years.

 

[StationToStation]

MW, is just frustrated b/c openly gay men, drag queens, and flamboyant types are out and secure and he isn't out and open. He's projecting his insecurities onto the secure. Simple as that too moi.

 

[undisclosed1234]

MW, is just frustrated b/c openly gay men, drag queens, and flamboyant types are out and secure and he isn't out and open. He's projecting his insecurities onto the secure. Simple as that too moi.

They're usually the most insecure ones in my experience. One "faggot" sends them into a spin for weeks on end.

 

[saymyname]

You are not examining the very likely possibility that if Gays had started the Gay Rights Movement and pushed for it with respect to following social norms in order to relate more to heterosexuals, that we would be very likely much further along in the process than we are today.

Yeah, the butch dykes, Queens, "Freaks" and so forth did a great job at making the public aware that Gays were out there. Unfortunately, as stated, the only attention it drew was negative attention, and if anything prolonged the Gay Rights Movement.

The fact of the matter is that you want to have your cake, and eat it too. And this arrogant approach that you have is causing the public to resent you ... not embrace you.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to you as your argument has clearly been ripped to shreds by other posters. If you knew anything about the history of gay rights, like someone else said, you'd know that that approach had not only already been tried, but also failed. I don't see why you think that all the modern approach gained was "negative" attention considering it's the approach that actually worked. I don't think Queer Nation doing "die-ins" in the streets of NYC during the AIDS crisis drew negative attention so much as attention that was fucking needed. You should stop caring so much about what other people think of you and more about the rights and wellness of the minority you're a part of, like it or not. The public that resents us is the ABOUT HALF of this country (USA) that has social conservative viewpoints, or are religious. Get over this ridiculous idea that all straight people are against us and that all straight people are conservative. Christ...



Again, stuck in the world of ideology and not the Real World, as I have pointed out.

We aren't stuck in the 1950's. We are in the year 2009. And like it or not, these are very real attitudes that Heterosexuals have towards Gays in this day and age. Again, like it or not, that is something you need to deal with. You can't just brush it off to the side and say "Oh, well. I don't care."

It absolutely amazes me that you can't understand how your attitude increases homophobia. I thought Gays would most like to see Homophobia end, as opposed to actually increasing it.

YOU are the one stuck in the 1950's. How the fuck does MY attitude increase homophobia!? You're the one suggesting that people repress themselves and oppress themselves! To "act normal", defined by bigots that uphold the definition of normal and decent! Your attitude is inherently homophobic.

Again, you may WANT the same rights as Straights, however as it stands right now, you AREN'T entitled to them. If you were, you would have them. Therefore, it kind of makes sense to me that if you want something that the other 90% of the population has the power to give you, you should really respect the social norms established by the MAJORITY of the population. Marching down the streets in drag carrying sex toys in Oklahoma and Texas isn't going to get you real far.


Oh my god, again with the dildos! I think you need to calm down and spend some quality time with a dildo in order to get over this aversion you have of them. You also need to get over this fucking ridiculous Kinsey-ian statistic that, because "90 percent" of the world is heterosexual that only 10 percent of the world/any given society supports gay rights. It shows how much of an authoritarian personality you have that you want your rights to be "given to you", fucking "granted to you" by the majority of the population, as opposed to taking what is rightfully ours.


Yet another example of your problem with not living in the Real World. You are far too idealistic as opposed to realistic.

If people simply acted "how they feel" going into work day in and day out, chances are that we would have a lot of people terminated from their jobs.

Well, that would be totally awful for the kind of fascistic world you would like us all to live in, wouldn't it?

If people simply acted "how they feel" out in public, chances are that we would have a lot more altercations between people, due to household factors.

Right...

However, that does not transpire because we have social norms in our society that we all follow, for the good of society.

You sound like the narrative from 1984. Fucking creepy.

Let me ask you this much, since you like to be idealistic. Do you think you could simply go out and be yourself in places like Iran or Afghanistan, without there being a negative response to what you are doing?

No, but neither could women. Does that mean that the women's suffrage movement should have never happened? Feminism? Wait, please don't answer that, or you'll reveal yourself as the homophobic, sexist and probably racist guy that you really are.


Why is it that Blacks have advanced their status in the social rungs of society quicker than Gays? It's because Blacks act civilized and can respect the social norms of society.

Or is it because their movement happened before ours and people realized, in their case, that discrimination based on race is bullshit? At one time, owning slaves was a social norm. Being racist was a social norm. It was the sit-ins, the riots, the marches, that were socially abnormal.

And Gay people have the same ability. I feel that most Gays probably do simply want to go about their lives within the realm of society by simply blending in with society like Straights do. However, they want to be "out" without that fear of rejection or labeling. It's unfortunate that the most vocal of those within the Gay Community are the ones that give all Gays a bad name. And because of the Negative stereotypes that Queens give to Gays, that makes it even more difficult for Gays to come out, due to the increase in Homophobia as a result of the Queens' behaviors.

First of all, stop capitalizing random words. That's socially abnormal behavior. Again, what you're saying is that loud, queeny flamer gays are a negative representation and a negative stereotype. Instead of assuming that they're the problem in our movement, maybe you should push for acceptance of all kinds of people. It's not our fault that big burly straight guys get uncomfortable around feminine men, which never made sense to me anyways. Anyways, they're just that, a stereotype. I think a lot of straight people now that that's stereotypical and that not all gay people are actually like that, and there's nothing wrong with being like that to begin with. Fuck, your argument makes no sense. You're just an ass kisser.... fearful.

And since you like to be idealistic, nor should there be anything special about being Gay, either. As far as overcoming adversity, sure that is something to be proud of. However, like Blacks, one can be proud of overcoming adversity while still following social norms and not trying to be Obnoxious and "in your face" about it in public.

Again, do you even live in a big city? I'm really not sure what you're talking about.


You can accomplish things without necessarily being obnoxious about it in public. Plus, don't make it sound like you really personally did anything. You understand the behavior and attitudes of Heterosexuals, but you don't care what they think.

Again, what the fuck are you talking about being in public? There's all sorts of obnoxious people from every creed in public. If a gay guy happens to be one of them, then since we're a stereotype, the majority has the ability to say oh, there goes another flaming faggot, while the more honorable, holier-than-thou god-fearing homosexual like yourself gets painted over. But is that really our fault? No, and we shouldn't tell people to stop acting a certain way just because you think it "makes us look bad".

Again, I ask you, if that is the type of carefree attitude you want to have that you feel applies to all people, then I would like for you to demonstrate that nonchalant attitude in the Middle East, and see what happens to you.

Just like there are norms there that are respected at this period in time, don't disrespect social norms here in the United States at this particular point in time either. There is a right way and a wrong way to push the Tolerance Agenda forward.

Hahahaha. Tolerance agenda. Right. If we all just act like nice, white, middle-class, college-educated homosexuals that wish to marry and adopt children, then eventually they won't hate us for being disgusting sodomites. Right-o.


I am aware that Drag is a performance art and a form of expression. I just feel it gives Gays a bad name. Because we are so few, it is unfortunate that all of us are lumped with that particular label, even though we don't want to be. Drag helps our image so much in the eyes of society, now doesn't it?

So according to your 'logic', because there are things in our community that the majority oppressor decides to call more attention to and stereotype us with, we should stop doing it or stop supporting those in our community that uphold the very freedom of expression that we're all entitled to. Instead of criticizing the majority for being so quick to stereotype and judge, you'd rather just ex-communicate the parts of our community that they dislike. How very courageous of you.


LOL. I get it alright and have gotten it for some time now. I simply don't agree with it, and feel that you are enflaming tensions amongst the overwhelming majority of the population, as opposed to helping to alleviate those tensions.

Think of Gay Rights in terms of any major planning for a major project from Start to Finish. When you are planning a project, is it possible to go Straight from Point A to Point Z? Or do you have to go little by little and in stages with points in between in order to execute the plan?

You are the kind of Person that wants to go straight from A to Z when it is impractical. And then you wonder why Proposition 8 failed in California. You are dealing with something very tricky when you are dealing with people of faith. A tactful approach in dealing with that, and getting into their minds, is far more effective than a completely reckless "I don't give a Fuck" approach that you want to take.




It's true that norms can be transformed over time, but not by jumping from A to Z. Try that shit in the Middle East and see what happens to you.




I lived on the outskirts of Los Angeles for about a year and a half. And even in places like that Gay Marriage still can't get passed. Why is that do you think? Maybe you should re-examine your approach, because the approach you advocate did nothing in that regard except have the movement for Gay Marriage suppressed.

If you don't want to get into the minds of your opponents, and find ways to tackle those issues appropriately, you aren't going to be successful. And Gays were not successful in what was defined as the Most Liberal State in the Country.

Umm, pretty sure that California was never defined as the most liberal state in the country, but rather than it had 2 of the most liberal big cities in the country. You know, we seem to be doing okay in the North East and other places with crazy-ass gun-toting christian conservatives don't have a majority of the vote. But yeah, you go ahead and sit down and talk to them about how beautiful love between two men is, and make sure you aren't crossing your legs when you talk. Fucking beg them for your rights while the rest of us fight for it.

For God's sake, will you Grow the Fuck up? Seriously.

Yeah, I know you want to live in a world without rules. You've made that quite clear. It just isn't practical.






Society is what it is at this particular time. You are 10% of the population. You think you can change the other 90% all by yourself? Again, you really need to grow up and accept reality. And part of that reality is making concessions. For example, "maybe I can convince society that I am like them in every single way except Orientation, and appeal to their sense of morality to the point where we can actually achieve Gay Marriage and all Benefits to Gay Couples .... but the trade off may be that I need to respect the social norms, and act normal in public.

Sounds like a reasonable, fair trade-off to me. Of course with you, it's either all or nothing. Well, don't be surprised if you get nothing with your attitude ... with everyone else suffering the consequences as a result.



What I advocate is for it being okay for Gays to be out in public, and for society to respect that, but with Gays still respecting social norms just like everyone else.

BEING GAY IN ITSELF IS GOING AGAINST A SOCIAL NORM!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said, change comes in stages. You don't simply go from Point A to Z without making stops in between.




Well, I got through most of your post, but I am stopping it right here with that.

That's about the second or third time you have stated your desire to "Fuck Shit Up" and it's clear from your words that I am not dealing with a mature person. Rather, I am interacting with an individual who has a large degree of maturity issues to deal with ... what will hopefully improve as you simply grow older and actually mature.

But until then, it's no sense in arguing with an immature adolescent like you who has no desire to listen to reason and would simply rather go out and "Fuck shit up!"

Good for you. And when you get beaten to a bloody pulp after "Fucking Shit Up", have fun paying the hospital bills.

I'm done interacting with you. Have fun talking to the wall, as I am not responding to you any further.

By fucking shit up I meant fucking up the social norms of society that you wish to remain in place in order to repress those of us that don't fit into your nice, decent little world of how people should be. No wonder you lived in the fucking LA suburbs and not LA...