Final Cry To Those Who Love The God Of Abraham

[TX-Beau]

Shows how far off I was, I thought he was talking about ex-gay movements in some particular.

 

[Alpha1851]

There isn't actually any archeological proof of said ark. They've never found it, if indeed it exists. Many kooks (non-bona-fide explorers) have claimed as much but have not produced anything.

Here's the bottom line, neither of us can prove how the world as we know it came into existence. Whether you subscribe to evolution, the big bang theory, or any hybrid thereof, go ahead and trace it to its most finite roots and I want to know who made the smallest particle involved? How did that come into existence? What made it happen? At some point, even the most clever scientist will have to admit that they don't know. Usually someone suggests, "well it just always was." Eh. If you don't want to believe in GOD then don't. It's really that simple.

Personally, I hate it when someone disagrees w/ a point made by another JUBBER and instead of attacking the points that were given, the JUBBER attacks the other individual's intelligence by asking whether they've bothered to watch the history channel or read any books on the subject matter. It's about as effective as attacking the spelling/grammar errors in a member's posts. Give me a break.

 

[Haberdashery]

ok you guys are right. If we are gonna be sensible and serious and credible then I need to provide citations immediately.

The reason I can't be bothered is that as I learned this some years ago I would need to go thru a big stack of thick books to find it. Sheesh!

I don't have that specfic info at my fingertips.

So I will withdraw the information I posted of a gods wrath/love ratio of 5:1
(until I get the citation)

Anyone who's studied the bible will know many verses describing gods wrath, gods hatred, where he cut them off, where he destroyed them, where he scattered them, dashed them, drowned them, brought pestilence, famine, and other descriptions of wrath.

Do you know the story of Sodom? Fire and brimstone? (that's an old favorite)

So I humbley withdraw my Info and will treat this as learning curve

 

[Alpha1851]

Blind faith and not questioning what one has been taught to see if it holds any merit may be fine for some, but not others. Some are interested in talking about faith/religion/spirituality and those of others, even if it is in the abstract.

Why discuss it when your mind is already made up.

No one can prove the flood happened, no one can prove it didn't happen. No one can prove that Adam and Eve existed, no one can prove that they didn't exist. So no, you'll never get those fantastic citations to submit into evidence. Not for either side. And, you know that.

 

[hotatlboi]

The flood did Happen, there are archeological proof of the fact in which can be googled.

I'm sorry but you epically fail at anything scientific. There is no archeological proof of the flood, in fact there is a distinct lack of any evidence supporting it.

Noah's Arc sits to this day on Mt. Ararat in Turkey.

wow, just wow man.

 

[bankside]

Why discuss it when your mind is already made up.

I take it you are here to discuss it because you are not very certain in your beliefs then! At the very least questioning and willing to look beyond your beliefs. I must say I would have lost a bet on that count, but willingly so; I am delighted.

Go Alpha!

 

[bankside]

Ambrocius, MikeyLove, Haberdashery - I'm going off topic so I'm kind of glad this is not an "on-topic" thread.. But I should at least try to go on-topic for a bit.

Even if I don't agree with you at all, I find this an interesting discussion. So my question is, how did you decide that Christianity was true?

(Instead of Hinduism or Buddhism, or Animism, or Judaism for example...)

 

[Haberdashery]

The god of the old testament vs. the god of the new testament are like night and day. Are you supporting and believe in the old testament as relevant to today's life, and abide by the laws therein?

Why does the god in the old testament seem like a bitter, angry, vengeful god, yet the one in the new testament is all about love and joy?

Umm dude ..... This new testament god that you talk about, the one u say is ALL about love and joy... Well he's the reason you are posting in this thread because he's the one who preached the destruction of the world.

Umm I think you needa lay off the history channel and yea give benny hinn a miss too.

Try actually opening a bible and reading it's contents.

Sheesh..... American children, got square eyes- 2muchtv

 

[Alpha1851]

I take it you are here to discuss it because you are not very certain in your beliefs then! At the very least questioning and willing to look beyond your beliefs. I must say I would have lost a bet on that count, but willingly so; I am delighted.

Yes, you would've lost. Let's see...I was raised Catholic b/c that's the religion of some of my family members (my parents weren't Catholic). I wanted to be a nun when I was much younger, but I quickly figured out that I didn't have the good hearted nature for it. Although my faith was strong before that time, for about three years in high school I no longer believed in GOD (I was never forced to go to church or confession so I stopped going). Then in college, I found GOD again and went back to Catholicism and remain in that faith today. I don't buy into 100% of our doctrines, but I'm on board w/ most of them. I dislike and disagree w/ many of the things that Pope Benedict states. I didn't want him to be chosen as Pope and even though I believe GOD selects our Pope, for the life of me, I can't see GOD's plan through him. Sadly, I'm no saint myself. Of course, that's the cliffs notes version of my own journey w/ GOD and faith, but I wanted to show that people do question things.

Really, did you honestly think that Christians never question their belief system? Come on. There are several different religions out there and many of these came about after members in church X determined that they didn't their current religion was incorrect. So, the church splits keeping some of their old doctrines and creating some new ones. Viola a quasi-new religion is born. Many of us attended a different church from time to time w/ friends of a different religion. Some people end up liking that religion more so they'll switch. And of course, there are people who grew up being taught that religion Z is correct, but they decide it's all bull shit and stop believing all together. Religion isn't a gang that you can never hope to leave. Further, just as many people make decisions w/o letting their emotions influence them, many people also make decisions w/o letting their religion influence them.

We're all human beings w/ brains. It's impossible not to question things at one time or another. How could anyone believe in something if they didn't think about it and weigh it against everything they've learned and experienced in their lifetime? In other words, to truly believe that X is true, a person has to analyze it. Unfortunately, the assumption by many non-believers is that we all just parrot back what we're told, or our entire families have a certain faith and we just sort of fall into it. As though we get a lobotomy the moment we enter through church doors.

But I suppose I made the same assumption about you. You seem certain that there is no GOD. If GOD was to speak to you, I bet you would ignore it. You'd think it was merely a coincidence or that you were just overworked and needed more sleep. I believe you could happen upon the Ark, but that wouldn't sway your opinion either. No, you'd want much, much more evidence than a measly Ark, but regardless of what you were shown, it would never be enough to convince you that GOD is real. I think you're 100% sure that there is no GOD and the rest of us believers are dead wrong. You exhibit many of the same certainties that you abhor in religious people. Am I wrong?

 

[Haberdashery]

^ um I can link scripture to a lot of what u said

 

[Alpha1851]

If people are too defensive to talk about it, perhaps they have their own doubts about the veracity of their beliefs, and take affront at someone asking them about it. Kinda like homophobes do when you ask them about their sexuality. *shrug* I don't understand why it's such a big deal.

Ah, I'm sorry, I misunderstood you then. Your statement, "My guess is that you have not spent much time really studying the history of the bible, actually reading the bible yourself, cover to cover by itself and no religious dogma study guides trying to coax you into believing their flavor of religion," just rubbed me the wrong way from the get go and I overreacted.

 

[Haberdashery]

Molten rock,

I'm not interested.

Response = zero

Call it what you will.

 

[Alpha1851]

It sounds like you had a crisis of conscience or whatever Christians call that where you left, and then decided to come back. And actually yes, I would consider you a rare person in religion that has thought about it, examined it, and in fact disagree with some of the official tenants/teachings. In my experience the vast majority of them are born into it, go on Sundays, and have no real idea what their church teaches. They are largely intellectually and spiritually incurious.

I think that's a common false assumption. Some people just can't conceive of an individual who is educated about theology and science, who has read the Bible, the Qur'an and other spiritual books, who has spent time in reflection about religion, and can come out of those experiences believing in GOD and that religion X most aligns w/ their own reasoning. It truly baffles some people b/c their own analysis and journey mirrors those of the Christians, except they came to a different conclusion. Assuming that believers are just parroting what they've been taught, or just show up to church on Sundays but never listen to the sermon and question what they're taught is how some people reconcile their disbelief that a logical person could believe in a god/gods/insert whatever deity you wish.

I think most folks are just like me, b/c unless a person resides in a controlled, religious commune, they're always being hit w/new information. Regardless of our religious beliefs or lack thereof, our ideas and values are constantly challenged and I don't think it's possible to ignore it all. Whether it's from the courses that are studied in school/college or the different religious beliefs of friends and family. Whether it's events reported in the news, or a sweet little church lady who disagrees w/ the priest and lets her opinion be known. Life is a constant flow and exchange of ideas.

Also, we humans can be very selfish and if nothing else, many people question their belief system when something bad happens to them or someone close to them. Sure, some folks will write the incident off as GOD testing them or the Devil wreaking havoc, but many people, at least for a moment, have their faith shaken to the core. And in that moment they'll question everything they've ever believed to be true.

Much like our last President.

Sadly, people will cling to anything when they're scared, when they're overwhelmed. Bush didn't reach "golden boy" acclaim until the tragedies of Sept. 11. At that point, many Americans wanted to hear anything that would explain why we were brutally attacked. Watching the twin towers fall was a huge deal. I know I never, ever thought anyone could come into our country b/c we have such great technology to keep our enemies out. Goodness was I wrong! Religion becomes very popular in times of fear and unease. People were scared, so they clung to Christ who would protect us all. Unfortunately, the media seems to have a love affair w/ the far-right Christians and people have certainly made a fortune off of rabid religion

Other than that, the Republicans use fantastic rhetoric. I mean, who doesn't want to support family values. It sounds great! "Family" is very important in our society and carries a positive connotation for most of us as does "value." They also "tradition" or "traditional" a lot which is another word that carries positive connotations. Tradition is something that has withstood the test of time, something to be proud of.

So yes, people can be swayed, they can react to certain things w/o thinking them through, but that doesn't mean they always behaved this way or that they will never change.

 

[prudyprudestein]

Why is that fundamentalist religion seems to get so much press? It is not the only belief system. I very much believe in God but not the God of fundamentalist religion. I believe that the Bible of Christianity or the Torah of Judaism is an inspired written record of the Hebrew people, specifically the descendants of Abraham through Isaac. The Koran is an inspired record of the descendants of Abraham though Ishmael. Along with other sacred texts are humanities way of explaining the existence of a particular group of people throughout history. Their stories and histories are reflected by their world view. Their view of a supreme being is reflected by what they understood, witnessed and understood at their time in history.
I believe that in very simple terms that most belief systems are about a spiritual being who wants to interact with humanity and build relationships with humanity. I believe that the good of religion is that it teaches use their is something and someone beyond ourselves that inspires us and give us hope. Good religion cares for others and works to make things better. Good religion is about relationship to a supreme being and our fellow human beings.

 

[Alpha1851]

Why is that fundamentalist religion seems to get so much press? It is not the only belief system.

In my opinion, b/c news stations and programs are for profit. Relaying the facts and just the facts is a thing of the past. Now, spin and sensationalism is the underlying factor that sells.

At the Pride parade this past year, my church and other churches gathered to protest the churches that were protesting the parade (does that make sense). It was obvious that some religious people were there to condemn gay people to Hell, and some where there to rope in their lost brethren and to show support for the LGBT community. However, we never made the news even though they did. We've been attending events and protesting other churches for a while now, but it just doesn't make a sensational story I guess.

By the same token, the media depicts Pride parades as these flamboyant spectacles. You never see families at them. You never see college floats or anything of that nature. You never see the educational booths or the volunteer booths that are everywhere. Instead, when tuning into the nightly news, we're treated to a picture of men wearing dog collars and leather, men running around naked, and men who are drunk and/or stoned. The lesbians are completely ignored, which if I was a lesbian I'd prefer it in this instance. Sadly, this is the only portrayal that many people will see and they'll base their opinions on it.

Profit is the bottom line and people are comfortable w/ stereotypical images.

 

[hotatlboi]

Umm dude ..... This new testament god that you talk about, the one u say is ALL about love and joy... Well he's the reason you are posting in this thread because he's the one who preached the destruction of the world.

Umm I think you needa lay off the history channel and yea give benny hinn a miss too.

Try actually opening a bible and reading it's contents.

Sheesh..... American children, got square eyes- 2muchtv

You didn't answer the question. It's clear from Molten's comment that he has in fact read the Bible.

And he is correct. The dichotomy between the old and new testaments is quite striking, if we are to believe they refer to the same individual. IMO, it's far more likely that the disparity reveals the truth of exactly what they are, very different writings written by humans in very disparate periods.

 

[bankside]

We're all human beings w/ brains. It's impossible not to question things at one time or another. How could anyone believe in something if they didn't think about it and weigh it against everything they've learned and experienced in their lifetime? In other words, to truly believe that X is true, a person has to analyze it. Unfortunately, the assumption by many non-believers is that we all just parrot back what we're told, or our entire families have a certain faith and we just sort of fall into it. As though we get a lobotomy the moment we enter through church doors.

But I suppose I made the same assumption about you. You seem certain that there is no GOD. If GOD was to speak to you, I bet you would ignore it. You'd think it was merely a coincidence or that you were just overworked and needed more sleep. I believe you could happen upon the Ark, but that wouldn't sway your opinion either. No, you'd want much, much more evidence than a measly Ark, but regardless of what you were shown, it would never be enough to convince you that GOD is real. I think you're 100% sure that there is no GOD and the rest of us believers are dead wrong. You exhibit many of the same certainties that you abhor in religious people. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong! You make the same assumption about me that you appeared to make - which prompted my comment - when you thought Molten was not here to listen. In my case in fact you make probably what is the most common assumption about Atheists; that we don't want there to be a god, and that if we were in the presence of god we would stick our fingers in our ears and shout "LALALALALALA I DON'T SEE YOU!!!" as though we were six-year-olds and being told to clean up our rooms. You keep good company though - C.S. Lewis made a somewhat similar mistake in "The Last Battle" with regard to the faithless Dwarves.

An Atheist is literally, and simply, someone who has no reason to believe. I'm not opposed to the idea. Indeed some aspects of divinity are appealing. Alas, there is nothing I have experienced which would lead me to think any of it is true. More to the point, there is nothing I have heard so far in the experiences related by anyone else that rings true.

Are we that different? Even as a Christian, at some point in your life you must have heard a specific argument given by other Christians for the existence of God that left you shaking your head and saying quietly to yourself "No, that's not it at all." Well, I'm still shaking my head.

I think that's a common false assumption. Some people just can't conceive of an individual who is educated about theology and science, who has read the Bible, the Qur'an and other spiritual books, who has spent time in reflection about religion, and can come out of those experiences believing in GOD and that religion X most aligns w/ their own reasoning. It truly baffles some people b/c their own analysis and journey mirrors those of the Christians, except they came to a different conclusion. Assuming that believers are just parroting what they've been taught, or just show up to church on Sundays but never listen to the sermon and question what they're taught is how some people reconcile their disbelief that a logical person could believe in a god/gods/insert whatever deity you wish.

It would make me uncomfortable to acknowledge someone as being educated about science, if that person held that the theory of a global flood was not a matter to be decided on the strength of the evidence. I'm not a hydrogeologist by profession, but even just a few episodes of watching Nova on PBS should be able to explain to people how science can speak more or less definitively with respect to the weighing of evidence about things like global floods.

Nonetheless it is good that you mention analysis. Analysis can be the subject of a respectful rational discussion. Analysis is far far better than saying "We all just have different opinions and that is that." Because analysis changes minds! Particularly where Atheists are concerned; it is our weak spot. You might say that Pride in one's own analysis goeth before the Great 180 of Opinion. If Christians are comfortable with analysis then Atheists should be dropping like flies, to our knees, in prayer. Which makes me curious about this:

Yes, you would've lost. Let's see...I was raised Catholic b/c that's the religion of some of my family members (my parents weren't Catholic). I wanted to be a nun when I was much younger, but I quickly figured out that I didn't have the good hearted nature for it. Although my faith was strong before that time, for about three years in high school I no longer believed in GOD (I was never forced to go to church or confession so I stopped going). Then in college, I found GOD again and went back to Catholicism and remain in that faith today. I don't buy into 100% of our doctrines, but I'm on board w/ most of them. I dislike and disagree w/ many of the things that Pope Benedict states. I didn't want him to be chosen as Pope and even though I believe GOD selects our Pope, for the life of me, I can't see GOD's plan through him. Sadly, I'm no saint myself. Of course, that's the cliffs notes version of my own journey w/ GOD and faith, but I wanted to show that people do question things.

I understand the chronology of you going from believer to non-believer to believer, but I am still curious to know what prompted each turn in that journey. What was it that made you disbelieve? What was it that changed your mind so that belief seemed compelling again? I have read your quote here a couple of times and it almost seems that your faith might never have really left you. That it was almost like a favourite wrist watch you kept in your dresser drawer for a few years without thinking of wearing it, and then one day doing the spring cleaning you were delighted to rediscover it. The way you tell the story there isn't much detail - I'm curious to know about your process of analysis when you went from believer to non to believer again.

Incidentally it is even more surprising that you would assume atheists try to ignore evidence of the divine, given that you yourself were a non-believer for a few years. How did you move from one position to the other unless you were open to exploration?

 

[Alpha1851]

Incidentally it is even more surprising that you would assume atheists try to ignore evidence of the divine, given that you yourself were a non-believer for a few years.

No, I wasn't lumping all atheists together b/c just as no two Christians are exactly identical, I'm sure no two atheists are either. I didn't think any type of proof would suit you, Bankside. That assumption came from the posts you've made on here. Am I wrong? Well, you've said so and I'm going to take you at your word.

I don't think that atheists don't want GOD to exist, but I do think many of them view Christians as simple minded idiots and that GOD is akin to Santa Claus. You yourself have made these sort of references about believers. Actually, in the above post you've italicized analysis in questioning why I've made the decisions I've made. Why? From your tone, I'm sure I've rubbed you the wrong way too at one point in time or another. I'd like to think I come across as an objective person, but maybe I don't. I will be more careful in the future. Assumptions are dangerous things, yet we all mistakenly make them.

I'm personally not gung ho about religious discussion b/c it's usually a futile activity. In debating the existence or non existence of GOD haven't we always been at an impasse? Neither of us can prove our side. Sure, we each have pieces of evidence to lead people to make a certain inference, but what good does it do when both sides have it. We're right back to where we were--each individual must decide what they believe, what they think is most correct. Does that mean it can't be discussed? Well, no. Some people really enjoy rehashing what seems unsolvable.

Really, unless religion is the subject matter of a debate competition, or I'm persuading a jury in a highly religious town, or I'm trying to stop harm from being done, I usually leave it alone. I'm game when someone else brings it into the arena, but I don't personally reach for Jesus references as soon as I'm out the gate. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind discussing Catholicism, but some people become very offended and think I'm trying convert them or push my religion in their faces. I subscribe to the, "I'll believe whatever I think is right, you believe whatever you think is right." For me, faith is a personal choice. It's not something that I'd post on a message board and ask for opinions. I ask questions, but I prefer it face to face. So many people spin things the way they see them or the way they want them to be. As extroverted as I am, this is one area that at the end of the day, I decide for myself what I think is right, what I'll buy into it and it can always change.

In case you're curious, this thread falls into the "trying to stop harm from being done." Hatred in the name of GOD needs to stop. It really does. It sucks that the OP believes he's sinning just by falling in love. I hate that for him. It's awful that some religious people preach that very message. But, just in case there are lurkers reading his message, I wanted to chime in as a Christian w/ a different viewpoint. There aren't many of us on JUB; someone needed to present a different side. The rift btwn the LGBT community and the Christian community is so wide. It's important to me to change that. Not in the finger pointing way b/c I'm definitely no saint, I have enormous flaws, but in the "just think about what you're saying and the harm you might be causing," kind of way. It just bugs me when people use GOD as a weapon to hurt others.

I've left off some things you mentioned and asked, but this is already a long post. I'm submitting this bad boy.

 

[Ambrocious]

I am not a prophet at all, I am a person just like everyone else here. I am gay, I do not deny this. Do I currently engage in homosexuality with men anymore? No. I came to the firm understanding not too long ago (within the last 2 and a half months) of what was just around the corner for the world and it shook me to my core.

Do I have any idea why I am gay and even though I ask God to take it from me he does not? I don't have all of the answers but much like any person who goes through any problem of any sort, it can become something powerful in your life. Any habit that takes you further away from God is bad, not just being gay because to God every sin is equal. I will have to wait until I meet Heavenly Father before I ask him why I was gay. There could be millions of reasons as to why I am this way but as for following God, it is a choice and I choose to do it.


To any and all who do want to avoid the coming destruction, if you at any time have ever KNEW that the God of the Christian belief is real, I beg of you to please look back at this and ponder on it carefully because your salvation draws near if you are taking hold of that genuine love for Christ Jesus in your heart.


Do not give up or hate yourself. Set aside any ideas of suicide and death and focus on the saving power of God and Jesus Christ. Do not feel a deep unending guilt for what you are; you are this way for a reason but we have a choice to follow the Lord if we truly love him.


It's time to pick sides of the spiritual war and there is next to no time left. Anyone with any true love of God in their hearts can and do see the signs around you; we all know that it is about to become the appointed time spoken of in the Bible. We must quickly do all that we can to be blameless and choose to follow Jesus.


This message is directed to anyone who still has a love for the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob who's name is Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim and many other translations; the same God is OUR God and our redemption is soon!

Have faith and do not let anyone steal from you the promise that the Holy Spirit has presented to you; screaming even for some in the depths of their hearts. Your transgressions are forgivable and your inequities will be departed as the atoning sacrifice be re-lit inside of your heart. The time IS now to make a choice because we do not know when he is coming...only that it is SOON.


To any and everyone who doubts the authenticity of God, the one whom I speak of, you WILL soon see that I am not a liar nor am I brain washed either. For you who have a desire to learn of God, do not wait. Do not hesitate to take in anything that is truth because it can save you from what is fast approaching.


We will all pass away and be gone but the words of God and the power of the Holy One will last forever. Praise be to the Lord of Lords an the King of Kings for our redemption truly is upon us! Be not shaken into submission! Stand firm to defend your love for Christ in your hearts and on your tongue. Do not fear, He will be with us always.

 

[Alpha1851]

I am not a prophet at all, I am a person just like everyone else here. I am gay, I do not deny this. Do I currently engage in homosexuality with men anymore? No. I came to the firm understanding not too long ago (within the last 2 and a half months) of what was just around the corner for the world and it shook me to my core.

I hope you'll eventually find a way to intermingle your sexuality w/ your faith. I fear you're in for a life of misery if you don't, and unfortunately, you might take others down that path w/ you. Why have you concluded that GOD just won't take the sin of homosexuality away from you? Did it not occur to you that homosexuality just might not be a sin and GOD is wondering what you're complaining about? Do you think GOD messed up when he made you? Do you really believe GOD intended for you to live all alone, w/o a life mate throughout your entire life? You're good enough just the way you are!

Do you need help? Is there anything I can do?