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Former leaders of "ex-gay" ministry apologize

But the difference to me is that I don't think these guys knew wtf they were really doing. They didn't appreciate the damage they were causing.

I think you may be right there.

But this guy isn't my kid and I don't HAVE to forgive him or even give him a pass. He did evil things and to be honest... the damage from those evil things is STILL being felt today.

I mean.. Exodus is still around.

Do we just forgive the CEO of BP because he said he's sorry?
 
So... George Rekkers, who took a hundred thousand dollars from the Florida Government to testify in a court case which ultimately removed foster children from gay foster parents and stopped all gay people from adopting...

Would you not consider that a "violent act?"

And if so... do you think now that he's been outed that we should all be nice to him?




'cuz I don't.

Jasun (sorry to have mis-typed that earlier), I've always gotten along with you & liked you (you may remember me as RandomAccess, plus we're Facebook "friends"). But you're carrying this one to the extreme. George Rekers is the exact OPPOSITE of Michael Bussee, and he's being let-off the hook!!! I say go after fools like Rekers who are true, unrepentant hypocrites. Don't keep blaming those who see the error in their ways WITHOUT diving into the depths of hypocrisy. . . those who quit living the lie without being "forced" out of their closets. Rekers is a hypocrite who has been allowed to drop out of sight. Bussee is standing up, admitting his error, and telling Exodus and the others that they're full of shit. If you can't see the difference, it's only because you're so blinded by hatred that you've lost your power to forgive. He stands before the followers of Exodus as someone who knows their language, their fears, and the falsehood of their beliefs. He can testify to their mistaken ways from first hand experience. He has a much better chance of getting our message through to those people than anybody else.

Oh, and good for you that you had such a minor struggle coming to grips with your sexuality. :rolleyes: That puts you in a place to judge others? You have no idea what his life was like. Be thankful that he's on the right side of the issue now, stop the fuckin' whining, and turn your hatred toward our common foes, like George Rekers.
 
Um.. a bit closer to 20, actually.

Exodus International was founded in 1976. Michael Bussee left and denounced the organization in 1979.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_International

Let's at least try to be factual.

And rather than pissing and moaning about Bussee's past, be thankful for the tool he provides us with factual, honest, productive videos that we can share with our detractors. Pretty hard for the bigots to argue against the truth provided by their own founder.
 
For the record... Some people will think I'm taking it to an absurd level comparing this man to a reformed Nazi. Maybe. But I can sure see the parallels.



"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


Nah, we're just in line with every bad internet debate that goes on long enough.
 
[Y]ou're carrying this one to the extreme. George Rekers is the exact OPPOSITE of Michael Bussee, and he's being let-off the hook!!! I say go after fools like Rekers who are true, unrepentant hypocrites. Don't keep blaming those who see the error in their ways WITHOUT diving into the depths of hypocrisy. . . those who quit living the lie without being "forced" out of their closets. Rekers is a hypocrite who has been allowed to drop out of sight. Bussee is standing up, admitting his error, and telling Exodus and the others that they're full of shit. If you can't see the difference, it's only because you're so blinded by hatred that you've lost your power to forgive. He stands before the followers of Exodus as someone who knows their language, their fears, and the falsehood of their beliefs. He can testify to their mistaken ways from first hand experience. He has a much better chance of getting our message through to those people than anybody else.

Oh, and good for you that you had such a minor struggle coming to grips with your sexuality. :rolleyes: That puts you in a place to judge others? You have no idea what his life was like. Be thankful that he's on the right side of the issue now, stop the fuckin' whining, and turn your hatred toward our common foes, like George Rekers.

Well-said, Venice.
 
I would submit if a child of mine was making his living by lying about changing who he was, bringing a few generations of gay men along for the ride, not caring who he was hurting... I would probably already be in a dysfunctional family.

I don't know how I'd react. But I'll tell you this... if my kid had done something THAT fucked up, I sure wouldn't just pat him on the head and say "oh well... let's go get some lunch, shall we?"
Geez, you're so extreme. I never said everything is rainbows & unicorns. But it is a teachable moment (as much as I want to gag when I say that).

And for god's sake, Jasun, if you don't want me to gag, at least occasionally you should have a guy in your siggie with some secondary sex characteristics ;)
 
But you're carrying this one to the extreme. George Rekers is the exact OPPOSITE of Michael Bussee, and he's being let-off the hook!!! I say go after fools like Rekers who are true, unrepentant hypocrites. Don't keep blaming those who see the error in their ways WITHOUT diving into the depths of hypocrisy. . . those who quit living the lie without being "forced" out of their closets. Rekers is a hypocrite who has been allowed to drop out of sight.

that's probably true. same with Ted Haggard. Yes... I'm taking it to the extreme. I DO however think that he's done just as much harm as Rekkers.


He stands before the followers of Exodus as someone who knows their language, their fears, and the falsehood of their beliefs. He can testify to their mistaken ways from first hand experience. He has a much better chance of getting our message through to those people than anybody else.

But... does he? He sure wasn't in that original video. In that video he was standing before a bunch of gay people at the gay and lesbian center in West Hollywood, ironically, just next to the homeless shelter for gay and lesbian teens. Kids who have been seriously hurt by the stuff he's done.
 
Maybe it's wrong, but I see the blood of many impressionable young teenagers on his hands. So he was with the group for only 3 years. Tough. Every child that has been damaged by that group in the years since he was there are still victims of his self-hatred.
I'm a victim of my pediatrician's advice to my parents when I was a boy--that I couldn't be gay because I didn't have a domineering mother.

So should I live my life with a burning hatred for the guy, or just accept the fact that he thought he was doing the right thing?

I'm an atheist, but I still think there's a place for forgiveness.
 
Be thankful that he's on the right side of the issue now, stop the fuckin' whining, and turn your hatred toward our common foes, like George Rekers.

If being pissed at someone who's done immeasurable damage to your community and offers little more than "oops... sorry" for it is "whining," then I think you're being a bit too forgiving.
 
Pretty hard for the bigots to argue against the truth provided by their own founder.

And yet... they do, don't they?

They just answer with "we're giving these people a choice... isn't choice good?"

And then they force kids into the concentration camps he made.

I'm sure he's sorry and if you are friends with him, maybe he's not all that bad. But I can't be the only one who hasn't seen enough amends from him just yet.
 
Maybe it's wrong, but I see the blood of many impressionable young teenagers on his hands. So he was with the group for only 3 years. Tough. Every child that has been damaged by that group in the years since he was there are still victims of his self-hatred.

You really think these people, while involved with their little "cult," saw themselves as responsible for all those suicides? They were taught to blame that on sin and mental disease, just like I was.

I agree with Jasun. If he was truly repetant he would have been at the Exodus convention protesting, and he wouldn't be accepting paid speaking engagements to publically say he was wrong. He's making money of the deaths of teenagers whose only fault was they were more open and more honest then him.

Where's the evidence that Bussee has collected any honorarium, or even had his expenses paid, for speaking in public? You have a link to that? And FYI, he protests constantly. He does letter writing campaigns. He speaks out on YouTube and in public appearances GRATIS.

How many did he have a direct hand in? How many have suffered because of his self-hatred since he left a group he worked hard to establish? How many still are forced into those camps to be "made whole"?

How many what did he have a "direct hand" in? What are you insinuating?

I was brought up catholic. Church-going and hearing how I was an abomination, but I never once considered myself anything less than a person who had a good heart. I didn't set out to create hatred and division. He did.

Were your parents fundamentalist Christians? Did you stand to lose your biological family over being gay? Did you witness bullying of gays in high school? Did you see your own friends gay bashing effeminate men? Were you ever convinced you would burn in hell for those feelings inside you that made your skin crawl?

I did. I denied myself and got married, stayed married for five years. . . until the guilt and self loathing made me physically ill. My doctor (who was also a "good friend") told me that whatever had me so emotionally stressed, I needed to get off my chest. So I told him what I thought was wrong. He backed away, referred me to a psychiatrist, and told me that I wouldn't be welcome at his home or near his family anymore.

You guys didn't grow up in the 50s, 60s and 70s, did you? If not, you have no fucking idea what it was like to be homosexual in the Bible Belt of that time. Don't judge us, Goddammit.

I don't buy the apology, I don't buy his "need to cleanse himself". And it's not just him. The parents who would rather a destroyed automaton rather than a loving, happy child are equally to blame for the sins they brought into others lives, and the blood they have on their hands.

You think he wanted to come forward just to make a fucking name for himself? You think he's somehow proud of what he did? He didn't have to say a fucking word to anybody, and he probably doesn't give a shit whether you forgive him or not. . . he's out to do the right thing. . . set the record straight and tell the Exodus people that they're full of shit. He doesn't have to do that. It's just the right thing to do!

This guy, and the organisation he helped to create and the copycat organisations that sprung up in its wake are no different to any other dictatorship. They tried to destroy the GLBT population. They told them they were dirty and disgusting. They told them they were an abomination and that only by lying to themselves and the others around them could they be saved.

So I suppose the only way you'd forgive him would be if he put a bullet in his own brain. Fuck-of-a-lot-of good that'd do! We'd lose his voice. . . we'd lose his insight into how to best deal with the homophobes of society.

I don't care if you guys forgive him or not. But I'll not be silent while you guys condemn him for fighting back against Bigots, Inc! If you can't support him, then shut the fuck up. The man's doing good work now, and not making a penny off of it. He's doing it because it's the right thing to do.

You guys are no better than the people at Exodus.
 
Wow. . . Three years in Exodus, and 31 years making amends. I wonder; how much would be enough for you guys to soften your hearts just a little bit?
 
You really think these people, while involved with their little "cult," saw themselves as responsible for all those suicides?

what matters is that they ARE responsible for those suicides.

He speaks out on YouTube and in public appearances GRATIS.

OK, but who does he talk to? Does he just speak to friendly crowds? I'm trying to find some mitigating factors here...

Did you witness bullying of gays in high school?

Worse than you'll ever know.

If not, you have no fucking idea what it was like to be homosexual in the Bible Belt of that time. Don't judge us, Goddammit.

I grew up in a remote farming village in Northern Atlantic Canada in the 80s. Trust me, I know what it was like.

So I suppose the only way you'd forgive him would be if he put a bullet in his own brain. Fuck-of-a-lot-of good that'd do! We'd lose his voice. . . we'd lose his insight into how to best deal with the homophobes of society.

WHAT voice? that's what I'm asking... other than a few speaking engagements and a Youtube channel, what has he done?


You guys are no better than the people at Exodus.

Really? Because I've never started an organization that's been used as proof as other people's rights are taken away.
 
I grew up in a remote farming village in Northern Atlantic Canada in the 80s. Trust me, I know what it was like.

I doubt that even rural Canada compares to the US "heartland" of the 50s and 60s.

WHAT voice? that's what I'm asking... other than a few speaking engagements and a Youtube channel, what has he done?

Here's a pretty easy way to find out. He's about as well-known and active as any activist I know of! He lives in your neck of the woods. . . maybe you should get in touch and talk to him about it. https://www.google.com/search?q=michael+bussee&btnG=Search&hl=en&sa=2

And again I say, if you want to malign someone, talk about George Rekers, Larry Craig, Mark Foley. . . ad nauseum, who are truly unrepentant hypocrites and who have been allowed to fade into the woodwork. Take your contempt out on them! Stop attacking our fucking ALLIES. . . the people who are doing everything in their power to HELP our cause, even though, if they'd kept their mouths shut, unforgiving fags would never have bothered to bash them!
 
Here's a pretty easy way to find out. He's about as well-known and active as any activist I know of! He lives in your neck of the woods. . . maybe you should get in touch and talk to him about it. https://www.google.com/search?q=michael+bussee&btnG=Search&hl=en&sa=2

Um... All that is is a bunch of links to stories about him or a few videos of him talking to friendly crowds. So sadly... it seems i was right about him.

Still a coward.

All I can see there is that he hasn't really done a lot of confronting the people who are really hurting us. Just lots of chatting on blogs and talking to gay people.

I really want you to convince me I'm wrong. If you want to show me that he's done anything other than that... don't just tell me Google is my friend.

I think he's a pathetic, sniveling coward who deserves my ire. Please prove me wrong with more than just a few links to stories about him in the Advocate.
 
Jasun, I'd hate to be a friend, partner, or family member of yours.

Your views are so black and white, so absolutist, that nobody could possibly measure up to your standards.

How much damage are you doing to cousins, nephews, friends' kids, etc., who get depressed because they aren't living up to your standards?
 
Um... All that is is a bunch of links to stories about him or a few videos of him talking to friendly crowds. So sadly... it seems i was right about him.

Still a coward.

All I can see there is that he hasn't really done a lot of confronting the people who are really hurting us. Just lots of chatting on blogs and talking to gay people.

I really want you to convince me I'm wrong. If you want to show me that he's done anything other than that... don't just tell me Google is my friend.

I think he's a pathetic, sniveling coward who deserves my ire. Please prove me wrong with more than just a few links to stories about him in the Advocate.

How sad for you.

He's working to make things better. He's doing all that in his free time when he's not working at a full time job supporting himself and his family. Show me a busier volunteer activist.

And what are you doing for the cause?
 
Here we go with this "defense"...

If you're not doing anything - and that could be as much(or as little, depending on who you ask) as even being out - then you have no right to ask someone what he's doing.

I happen to be doing things for the cause. Maybe I could do more. But I'm not attacking people who are doing things. . . very visible, productive things, while doing nothing myself.
 
How sad for you.

He's working to make things better. He's doing all that in his free time when he's not working at a full time job supporting himself and his family. Show me a busier volunteer activist.

And what are you doing for the cause?

Ok see... I WANT you to prove me wrong... I'm hoping you do.

You say he's working to make things better... But I haven't seen any evidence of that but you can't show me doing anything other than talking to friendly people.



what am *I* doing?

Well I have helped organize fund raisers for a shelter for homeless gay youth. I've confronted a lot of anti-gay people. And I never started a politically powerful organization that's hurt gay people for three generations.

So as far as I can tell, I win that little comparison.

if you can show me something else he's done... I'm begging you to do it.
 
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