Fred Phelps / Phelps Family / Westboro Baptist [mega-merged]

[Kulindahr]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Yes, and only for clarity's sake, my post was an attempt to elicit rationale from another member and so I wrote "to many" and not "to me." I've never argued that there should be no regulation of speech; though that is a good place to begin.

By the way, you will note that you provided a rationale for what you characterize as common sense.

I thought I stated a set of circumstances and pointed out that the conclusion is common sense.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

Baptist Minister Reverend Mike Huckabee is making nearly identical claims with respect to the Newton school killings as is the Westboro Baptist Church, only Huckabee is saying it on national TV and not on-site.

Huckabee Says the Connecticut school massacre occurred because we ‘Removed God From Our Schools’.

Really? Is that how his God works?

Only in warped minds. Theologically, Huckabee isn't a Christian, he's a blood-and-wrath Jew from the time before the great Prophets.

 

[Ram]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

So wait. Just curious about something.

Why are people who talk about killing other people getting arrested? I mean, they can say whatever the want, right? This is still protected under the Freedom of Speech law.

 

[bankside]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

500 meters isn't a bad figure, though I'd want to know how far they can be and still be heard by the mourners. The right to privacy has to trump free speech in this situation; I'd even argue that the nature of a funeral generates a "sacred space" where it is no more appropriate to be offensive than in someone else's synagogue or church meeting hall.

I don't think a right could be developed on the basis of "sacred space" because that implies that sacredness is real, or identifiable, and that is not something a government should be positing. It reminds me of the Government of China ordering the Tibetan Lamas not to reincarnate without state permission. Also, I think "freedom of assembly" is sufficiently robust to deal with this.

Incidentally I can't imagine debating someone's religious beliefs inside their place of worship unless specifically invited there for that purpose. But then again, private property makes it possible for a given congregation to prevent admittance or expel someone who is disruptive. Cemeteries are private.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

I thought I stated a set of circumstances and pointed out that the conclusion is common sense.

If you think there is an important difference between providing reasons for an opinion and this ^, okay.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

Jack's link to wikipedia on Fred Phelps shows this. Maybe they will be able to keep them away from the funeral and/or arrest them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

--snip --

I like this one:

Florida increased the penalty for disturbing military funerals, amending a previous ban on the disruption of lawful assembly

Since peaceful assemblies are protected under the Constitution, limitations in order to protect them seem sensible -- in fact that's the rationale behind many restrictions on where and how protest marches may be conducted, such as keeping on the sidewalk and not passing through other areas being peacefully occupied such as parks with picnickers.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

BTW, I think the only reason the Phelps prevailed in the SCOTUS decision was that the argument presented focused too narrowly on the damage caused by the specific message of the Phelps klan, rather than on the disruption from hateful and spiteful intrusion. That allowed the Court to reject the claim on the basis that a particular message was being stifled, rather than that the right to privacy at a funeral was being protected. If they'd crafted the law and the appeal on the more general basis, so it didn't matter if it was Christians, Muslims, Jews, or whoever, bringing a hateful message to any funeral, I think they'd have gotten a 5-4 decision in favor.

This kind of protection can be done. But so long as lawmakers write laws in a hurry instead of carefully after deliberation the courts are going to see the flaws and toss them out.

 

[Benjoe]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

I think the way that things are going it's just a matter of time before equal marriage rights are finally legally acknowledged.

Now imagine you finally get the right to marry the guy of your dreams, your friends, family and loved ones turn up on the big day...
along with the Westboro nutters.

Will you still respect their right to free speech when they're chanting 'God hates Fags' at you and your loved ones on your big day?

Let's be clear on this, this isn't about freedom of speech, it's about freedom to be a fucking cunt.

 

[iwantbig]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

maybe you should all show uo in moral support of the families , and bash the shit out of those fuckheads in your grief , no one would blame you ,

 

[White Eagle]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

^^I think there may be 20 Dads that will do it. Or the Mothers! Ya ever saw a pissed off woman?

 

[gsdx]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Again, it bears repeating that most memorials occur on private property. There is no right of access by lunatics to private property.

But they can stand outside the church or funeral home or cemetery on public property and still make their presence know. That's what happened to the father of the fallen soldier. They disrupted the service in the cemetery and the father took them to court. He lost.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

I think the way that things are going it's just a matter of time before equal marriage rights are finally legally acknowledged.

Now imagine you finally get the right to marry the guy of your dreams, your friends, family and loved ones turn up on the big day...
along with the Westboro nutters.

Will you still respect their right to free speech when they're chanting 'God hates Fags' at you and your loved ones on your big day?

Let's be clear on this, this isn't about freedom of speech, it's about freedom to be a fucking cunt.

Here's why the private property constraint isn't sufficient: that chanting could be heard through walls, at close enough range.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

Local employers ought to offer a day off with pay to anyone willing to go make a human wall between funeral and Phelps Klan.

 

[Kabluey]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

They rely on the rest of the world acting less crazy than they are.
Probably a miracle no one has gone bat shit crazy on them to cause them harm, but that's probably also why they bring children along to protest, acting as a human shield for the adults.

 

[star-warrior]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Move to remove Tax Exemption status from the WBC

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansasci...2/groups-aim-to-strip-tax-exemption-from.html

One petition has 41,424 signatures: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...xempt-status-westboro-baptist-church/YrKbHYtV
The other has 179,473: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl

I hope our American friends here will petition their government to remove the tax-exempt status the Westboro Baptist Church is currently enjoying.

Remember, every dollar of tax they are exempt from paying, it's like it's come out of your wages or your investments.

Act now. Why should you be subsidizing their hate against you? I bet they are laughing in everyone's faces because of it.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

I'm not sure why that was so important to you in the first place.

Something in the Constitution--I've forgotten the exact wording--relies on something being "self-evident". I bet you really got your panties into a wad over that one.

I can just picture you throwing a fit in your high chair: "What do you MEAN, self-evident?"

It was important to me because your idea was ludicrous.

Some principles are self-evident.

That there should be a prohibition against the WBC because "they're bad guys" is not amongst those principles.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Characterizations about my person are inappropriate and off-topic. There's no reason to say I have "ice water in my veins" or that I've got "my panties in a wad" or that I'm "crying in my high chair" or that I have "no moral compass." It doesn't sting, because such comments don't really reveal anything about me. This thread is not about me. Please go back on topic.

 

[bankside]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

I'm sorry that this has to lead into a personal area, but it all does reflect on you, Zoltanspawn. To everybody else, the ideas of "common sense" and something being "self-evident" resonate inside them.

The fact that nothing resonated inside of you leads me to believe you have no moral compass.

I'm sorry if that stings, but that's the way I feel.

As I said before, I welcome and cherish the views you have on food (you're probably the smartest food-ite on JUB), but I would not rely on you to feel empathy or compassion, and for that reason, I wouldn't feel comfortable going to you with a personal problem.

Add me to the list of people who think it is far too facile to draw conclusions from what is "common sense" or "self-evident." Something "resonating" is nowhere near something "known."

 

[gsdx]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Characterizations about my person are inappropriate and off-topic. There's no reason to say I have "ice water in my veins" or that I've got "my panties in a wad" or that I'm "crying in my high chair" or that I have "no moral compass." It doesn't sting, because such comments don't really reveal anything about me. This thread is not about me. Please go back on topic.

The topic is 'freedom of speech'. He's on topic. He has the right to say what he did. Or is 'freedom of speech' selective?

 

[bankside]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

The topic is 'freedom of speech'. He's on topic. He has the right to say what he did. Or is 'freedom of speech' selective?

Ahh. You're giving an excellent example of my earlier points about both private property and freedom of assembly. Given that JUB is a community of people who choose to assemble online under a privately owned service that is governed by a code of conduct, speech is regulated here, not free.

It is one thing for private organisations to do that; entirely another when governments do.