Gay Conservatism

[rareboy]

OMG..........JayHawk.........you just made my day Thank you........

I love me some JayHawk

I KNEW JayHawk was a closet conservative, from at least several months ago. I could tell because JayHawk is very pro-military, pro-2nd amendment, and he was critical of how the "Occupy" protesters handled themselves.

I'm glad you're coming out of the "other" closet, JayHawk.........

We can add yet another member to the "Gay conservative fraternity" on JUB!!

Here is the unofficial list, off the top of my head--

1. Jackoroe
2. Chance1
3. Jack Springer
[STRIKE]4. justapixel[/STRIKE] Banned
5. JayQueer
6. Jerry
7. JayHawk

Welcome to our fraternity, JayHawk!!

There.

Fixed that for you.

Other than that, gush as much as you want to.

I'm sure that one of you can come up with a clever name for your 'frat'.

 

[JayHawk]

Thanks for sharing that video, JayHawk. It certainly made me think and also got posted on my Facebook wall.

It made me about the past and where we are now. Even though the Democrats are socially more liberal than the Republicans, they too have screwed the gay community over in the past.

That said, at least the Democratic party is making steps toward equality now, whereas the Republicans seem fairly anti-gay, so in the end, because marriage equality and GLBT rights, as well as other things, such as social welfare programs, and keeping things like Creationism out of the classroom are important to me, I still will vote Democrat.

It should be said though, that if a more liberal party came along, I'd definitely give them a look.

Yeah it doesn't leave much room for choice currently because they are so damn similar. I think I could actually support a conservative party that ditched the evangelical types who would shove their brand of existence down everybody's throat while calling it smaller government.

You know, when it comes down to it, being gay plays a very small role in my criticism towards what the Republican party considers "conservative." I fundamentally disagree with the platform on most aspects of economy, education, military spending, social services, tax rates, abortion, and the environment. I feel a perfect Republican party world would have the elderly, children, and poor dying on the streets, a generation of ignorant children, and a perpetual cycle of disastrous wars where our best and brightest of young men and women would come home in boxes, instead of being the pillars of innovation and industry.

There, I said it.

While we could argue many of those points individually, That is best left to various threads. I think the over arching ideology of the conservative party has been high jacked and to run for office these people have to say the most outlandish bunch of tripe. However when they govern it used to be that compromise meant we ran a fairly straight course as a nation. Now with the Tea Party doing anything to obstruct that is not the case. I really don't know what a course correction would be or how this current party gets there.

 

[jackoroe]

OMG..........JayHawk.........you just made my day Thank you........

I love me some JayHawk

I KNEW JayHawk was a closet conservative, from at least several months ago. I could tell because JayHawk is very pro-military, pro-2nd amendment, and he was critical of how the "Occupy" protesters handled themselves.

I'm glad you're coming out of the "other" closet, JayHawk.........

We can add yet another member to the "Gay conservative fraternity" on JUB!!

Here is the unofficial list, off the top of my head--

1. Jackoroe
2. Chance1
3. Jack Springer
4. justapixel
5. JayQueer
6. Jerry
7. JayHawk

Welcome to our fraternity, JayHawk!!

I don't support conservative positions on social issues. People have a right under the 14th Amendment to be treated equally. That's the whole marriage issue. If your "group" sees it any differently, please remove me from it. Thank you.

 

[M4P]

OMG..........JayHawk.........you just made my day Thank you........

I love me some JayHawk

I KNEW JayHawk was a closet conservative, from at least several months ago. I could tell because JayHawk is very pro-military, pro-2nd amendment, and he was critical of how the "Occupy" protesters handled themselves.

I'm glad you're coming out of the "other" closet, JayHawk.........

We can add yet another member to the "Gay conservative fraternity" on JUB!!

Here is the unofficial list, off the top of my head--

1. Jackoroe
2. Chance1
3. Jack Springer
4. justapixel
5. JayQueer
6. Jerry
7. JayHawk

Welcome to our fraternity, JayHawk!!

You can add my name to this list

 

[mbamike]

Kuli's comments above got me thinking. So, I googled "Goldwater conservatives." This helped clear up some issues I have with the Republican party.

I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process."
(in a 1994 Washington Post essay)

I agree with that statement.


Goldwater is created with saying:

Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedoms that document protects. SOURCE: Barry Goldwater VS The Religious Right

I agree with that. Today's conservative movement is about forcing one's Christian views on the nation disguised as conservatism. Religion has no place in our government. I believe the Republican party has lost its way!

"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' " (1909-1998) US Senator (R-Arizona) Source: Congressional Record, September 16, 1981

Goldwater appeared to be part prophet.

"Well, I've spent quite a number of years carrying the flag of the 'Old Conservatism.' And I can say with conviction that the religious issues of these groups have little or nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics. The uncompromising position of these groups is a divisive element that could tear apart the very spirit of our representative system, if they gain sufficient strength." SOURCE: Barry Goldwater VS The Religious Right

I'm afraid this is where we are today. The religious right is tearing our country apart.

So apparently, I'm a Goldwater conservative.

 

[CowboyBob]

Good point about Goldwater. He warned about the religious right gaining power. It's here.

Goldwater warned about Conservatives Without Conscience (the Tea Party):

http://mariopiperni.com/tea-party/b...ng-about-conservatives-without-conscience.php

Other conservatives have warned about the current Republican party.

Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-military-expansion-50-years-later

Reagan warned about failing to raise the debt ceiling.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/05/16/166488/reagan-debt-flashback/?mobile=nc

We were warned about these so-called conservatives who are in Congress now. They're not conservatives, they're radicals.

 

[Kulindahr]

In truth, the Republican Party is NOT a conservative party, it's a religious reactionary party. They have few actual principles; mostly they have things they hate and want to do away with.

I would love to see a conservative party, but we only have room for two parties thanks to an in-practice non-representative system. The Libertarian Party is the closest thing to conservative that we have, but in general they share the "jump off the cliff" approach of the Republicans. The Reform Party, what's left of it, is pragmatic more than anything; the Constitution party is another reactionary bunch; the Green party is liberal (and flaky)....

I fear that to save the Republic, we need a House of Representatives with proportional representation within state delegations. It's the only way I see to make the "people's house" back into the people's house.

Of course, without a "only people are persons" amendment, even that wouldn't make much difference.

 

[Kulindahr]

A comment on Goldwater's statement about religion:

those are basically the conclusion I came to from studying Jesus and the rest of the New Testament. Jesus never goes around telling others what to do, He never tried to shape government, and He never instructed His followers to do anything like either of those -- in fact He expounded the opposite view, that we are to leave Caesar, i.e. government, alone, and to tell people about Him, not about how we want them to live... and further, He made it clear that following laws will not make anyone righteous or even better.

Paul is even firmer on the same items. One of his statements ought to be banged into the heads of all 'evangelicals':

Christ set us free so we could have freedom. So stand firm, and do not allow any shackles from laws.

KFT*





*Kuli's Free Translation

 

[evanrick]

conservatism is conformism/establishment.

progressive is the cure.

yeah conservatives want marriage equality, but progressives will win gay rights, conservatives will benefit as well as progressives.

when have gay people benefited from conservatism when in America its traditionally anti-gay while progressiveness has been pro-gay?

each time America embraces a progressive message we make progress, its clear a lot of progress has been made under Obama, under liberals, and conservatives and the establishment are struggling in vain to keep the status quo.

conservatism is never a good thing in a country with so much income inequality.

when have we made 'progress' with conservative leadership? would conservatism not breed regression when traditions are threatened?

under republicans we dont get much progress, under liberals we see some progress, and conservatives try to dismantle that progress to return things to the way they were.

when will conservatives realize that their ideology, while well intentioned, has a ripple effect of chilling consequences for peoples lives?

you may believe in conservatism, but do you really want to know how much pain it has caused?

 

[Kulindahr]

conservatism is conformism/establishment.

progressive is the cure.

yeah conservatives want marriage equality, but progressives will win gay rights, conservatives will benefit as well as progressives.

when have gay people benefited from conservatism when in America its traditionally anti-gay while progressiveness has been pro-gay?

each time America embraces a progressive message we make progress, its clear a lot of progress has been made under Obama, under liberals, and conservatives and the establishment are struggling in vain to keep the status quo.

conservatism is never a good thing in a country with so much income inequality.

when have we made 'progress' with conservative leadership? would conservatism not breed regression when traditions are threatened?

under republicans we dont get much progress, under liberals we see some progress, and conservatives try to dismantle that progress to return things to the way they were.

when will conservatives realize that their ideology, while well intentioned, has a ripple effect of chilling consequences for peoples lives?

you may believe in conservatism, but do you really want to know how much pain it has caused?

Except for the first line, what you're taking about is reactionism, as in reactionaries.

Conservatism believes in individual freedom so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Kulindahr]

Conservatism is nothing but a disease of greed and a product of old crony capitalism. I think every belief system on the right wing is about greed and corruption. People lose touch with what matters the most. The rights of the workers.

The workers will suffer any time conservatives are in power, and everything must be done in the framework to stop the corporate lackeys from gaining power.

It doesn't surprise me that JQ is again running with this video and everything it said. He doesn't care about the LGBT community. No conservative that I can think of has stood with the LGBT community, and have stood against us.

The political right has pushed years of suffering on minorities, and they always try to find a minority to punish. If you are gay and on the political right, you're contradicting yourself and undermining your own credibility within society.

I can just only think of Reagan. The hero of the conservatives and republican party. That was one of the darkest times for the gay community, and criminal neglect by the government in response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic was shocking and deplorable. Conservatism is nothing but a hoax thinly veiled by the vague words of "freedom" and "states rights".

I'll ask JQ and others... freedom for who? Because under such conservatives, I would feel enslaved and brutalized. Conservatives only believe in freedom for themselves and not anyone else. They don't stand with the people.

So it's time to flush this pathetic political belief system into the toilet and move forward as a society.

Wow -- an almost communist rant.

Conservatism was around long before capitalism; it was and always has been about holding to what is good and changing what needs to be. The Founding Fathers of the U.S. were conservative: they wanted to hold on to their rights as Englishmen, but in order to do that they ditched the king. Then they wrote a Constitution that tried to keep government small and out of people's way -- a very progressive document, since it gave the people very serious input into their government.

You've bought into the lie these people peddle (and the ignorance of the media who perpetuate it) that they are conservatives. They're not; they're reactionaries; they don't want to preserve the status quo, they want to crank the calendar back.

Conservatives don't really care if they have power, so long as no one else can be a tyrant over them; reactionaries want power so they can shape the world to a shape demanded by their cowardly approach to life -- reactionaries are almost always driven by cowardice, though not always.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's not a communist rant. The reason I made that rant is because JQ irritates me to no end. Some of that post was made out of anger I'll admit, but most of it is true to what I believe. I think the small government nonsense has no place in modern society. Government has to keep over a watchful eye over corporate corruption and malfeasance (much like what Romney engaged in when his company Bain Capital was charged with a $100 million medicare fraud charge).

It's too bad we abandoned the Founding Fathers' concept of a corporation: small, limited to doing one particular thing (like build a canal), and of limited duration. The legal concept has grown and gotten so sloppy that churches, clubs, interest groups, mom&pop stores, and giant companies are all "corporations".

I think the internet has given us a model for what should be done, the change we need: .com, .org, and others help distinguish what an organization actually is. We need that clarity; it was the vast confusion bequeathed by Congress and courts that made the Citizens United case a no-win situation for the Supreme Court, because in order to decide in favor of citizens -- those in the group called Citizens United -- it ended up granting freedom of corruption to for-profit corporations.

What the reactionaries ("American conservatives") fail to understand is that just because things happen because of free decisions unimpeded by government doesn't mean they are somehow holy. The Russian Revolution happened because of free decisions, The Troubles in Ireland happened from free decisions -- all sorts of tyranny and terror have come from free decisions. The result of their agenda will be to throw out government as a power center able to oppress us, and leave concentrated wealth holding the field as a power able to oppress us. That's a recipe for ghastly tyranny, devolving the country into a corporate feudalism where the only way to be protected is to pledge loyalty to some wealthy corporation or patron... and the rest will be serfs, non-entities with no protection before the law because the law will have no power behind it.

The valley the Republicans -- those who are actually conservatives, anyway -- see from the mountainside we're on would be a great place to be. They have to realize we can't get there by jumping off the cliff. But they're so far gone that if Barry Goldwater ran for president today, he'd be considered a liberal.

 

[rareboy]

It's not a communist rant. The reason I made that rant is because JQ irritates me to no end. Some of that post was made out of anger I'll admit, but most of it is true to what I believe. I think the small government nonsense has no place in modern society. Government has to keep over a watchful eye over corporate corruption and malfeasance (much like what Romney engaged in when his company Bain Capital was charged with a $100 million medicare fraud charge).



I don't care what conservatives think. They are self-interested and do not care about their fellow man. I do. I want something done for the people... the workers.

And as one of the 1%, I want to defend and support your right to call for something to be done for the workers of America.

Something that supports a decent living wage and an environment where multi-nationals and all the so called 'job creators' aren't shipping off all the work to countries with child labour and slave labour...where workers are spending 15 hours in some sweat factory for $1.00 per day.

Jesus Christ everyone.

It has to change.

And the change should not be the recreation of a slave class in the US.

I have been approached a number of times over the last five years about shipping off some of what we do to low paid workers in India and other parts of the East. My responsibility is to my community and to the people who work for me. I would much rather finally be driven out of my profession and business because I held fast to this idea than to be sitting on top of just more money.

Mark me. The day will hopefully come when workers the world over are freed from slavery because some white dude in North America or Europe decides they want to pay 20% less for an IPod.

 

[hermanding]

I do not like labels. They never fit all situations. Depending on the situation, I am republican, democrat, libertarian, or some combo of some or all of them.

 

[JayHawk]

Herman i think you have nailed it.

What Rob talks about has been altered by the 'reactionaries' on the right.

It is funny the video specifically ask about two things but the entire content of the thread has been filled with 'why I hate "Conservative Party" rhetoric. Many of those reasons to dislike the party on the right are quite valid but NOT what the video was asking nor what I ask in the OP.

It is shame people cant put aside their rhetoric for a few minutes and think.

Are gay men and women and more generally minorities the moral compass of greater society?

 

[TheFireGod]

At least to me, Conservative and Liberal are only words with its meaning dependent on time, place, and person.

Most of the people I know don't even label themselves. And even if they do, they seem to do things that I would think is contrary to what they believe in anyways... i.e. a self-proclaimed Marxist friend who has an iPhone, a Mac, and a PS3.

That being said, I don't know what the hell I am most of the time so it's pretty useless calling myself Liberal, Conservative, Progressive, or even Centrist or Moderate.

 

[frankfrank]

I prefer Asexual Antidisestablishmentarianism myself.

Antidisestablishmentarianism??? That's Dominionist talk!!

 

[Jerry]

I don't support conservative positions on social issues. People have a right under the 14th Amendment to be treated equally. That's the whole marriage issue. If your "group" sees it any differently, please remove me from it. Thank you.

..........

 

[rareboy]

Hey,

Jayqueer.

Time to recap.

1. Jackoroe - Qualified support
2. Chance1
3. Jack Springer
4. [STRIKE]justapixel[/STRIKE] Banned
5. JayQueer
6. Jerry - Qualified support
7. JayHawk - Likely voting Obama
8. M4P

Looks like it will be a table for 4 for the weekly wing night?

 

[bendted]

Anyone wish to discuss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voFfWUpHEAQ&feature=g-all-u&context=G28f86d8FAAAAAAAABAA

(I'd like to discuss how hot he looks!

Sorry...)