Gay Conversion Therapists Claim Most Patients Fully Straight By The Time They Commit Suicide

[peeonme]

I think human sexuality is malleable and capable of spontaneous mutations in any number of directions over the course of a life. I find really committed/total heterosexuality and homosexuality somewhat confusing.

Spontaneous being the key word, it's not as though one makes a cognitive decision as to what turns him on, on any given day.
We are fluid, at least some of us are, but, I have never known any one who chooses what gets him hard, he responds to desires that make him erect.
I don't believe that we choose these desires.

 

[mikey3000]

What of it? He's lucky. Just like you are I suppose. You're lucky in the sense that you are in a position to be able to choose. Hooray for you

Believe me, it isn't all luck. Lots of hard work too, especially keeping my, "mixed orientation marriage" and my family intact. But it was worth it.

I finally managed to dig up an article I read a while back that started me down the path to how I think on the subject. I think the anthropological angle ('gay' has no universal meaning with other cultures viewing it differently) is quite interesting and reminds me of Foucault and the idea that no one was gay until we invented it in the latter half of the 19th cent. Before that their sexuality was something else, and we now put them in our modern category of gay.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/whats-wrong-with-choosing-to-be-gay/371551/

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing!

 

[IamNoah]

Spontaneous being the key word, it's not as though one makes a cognitive decision as to what turns him on, on any given day.
We are fluid, at least some of us are, but, I have never known any one who chooses what gets him hard, he responds to desires that make him erect.
I don't believe that we choose these desires.

You don't think, and I'm not saying it does, I'm unsure of the science, sexual attraction works something like taste in food or music?

 

[mikey3000]

"Believing that one is born gay can also become a handy weapon against the harsh treatment by family and society, and an explanatory tool to combat internal self-loathing and doubt. There is clearly some real comfort for gays—particularly those who have navigated the waters of hatred—to come to land on the supposedly solid shores of biology."

Quote from above article.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

What of the "gay" man who still sleeps with occasional women? We know there are a few on here.

Why is the concept of nature AND nurture so hard to grasp? Not everyone is the same. Man, talk about brain washed. Nothing in life is carved in stone. Not even attraction. People change every day, on many areas, no conversion therapy required.

Lol brainwashed. Ok.

 

[justaguy]

"Believing that one is born gay can also become a handy weapon against the harsh treatment by family and society, and an explanatory tool to combat internal self-loathing and doubt. There is clearly some real comfort for gays—particularly those who have navigated the waters of hatred—to come to land on the supposedly solid shores of biology."

Quote from above article.

So it's all down to self-loathing then is it?

Ok, you can look at it from a philosophical viewpoint or a scientific one. I choose the scientific one.

For example, one study showed that if one identical twin was gay, then the other was 50% of the time. If the two brothers were just fraternal twins (ie don't come from the same egg), then the odds dropped down to 22%. And if one brother was adopted, the odds were only 11%. Another more comprehensive study gave similar results with both twins in an identical twin pair being gay around 32% of the time as compared to 13% of the time for fraternal twins (if one of them is gay). Lots of other studies have been done that show the same trend even if they don't have the exact same numbers. And there are also studies with identical twins separated at birth that show a much higher incidence of the other being gay if one of them is than you would expect if there was no genetic influence, despite being raised in different environments.

Anyway, whatever the science, as others have said here, the notion that gay people 'choose' our sexuality is just plain nonsense. Trust me, I tried to choose heterosexuality, and failed. Your situation doesn't have relevance to me, to be honest. You are bisexual, so you're in a much better position to be able to choose.

 

[mikey3000]

What kind of science is that? It's so full of holes, it's sad.

 

[peeonme]

You don't think, and I'm not saying it does, I'm unsure of the science, sexual attraction works something like taste in food or music?

I think that we can acquire a taste for different kinds of food and music. I believe that sexuality is a little more complex.
I find no evidence that nurture will make a guy gay, it might be the catalyst that pushes his "turn on" button.
Different guys turn out gay or straight at the same rate as the general population even if they are from a nurturing that some thought would "make" a dude gay.

So I think that we are wired into our sexuality with some degree of flexibility. My point in all of this is that I have never heard of anyone
who one day "chose" his sexuality, I think in most cases we discover it, as a 13 year old I found my friend to be attractive to me in a sexual way one day, this surprised me, before this I had messed around with girls and never thought of boys, I even had at least one erotic dream of a girl, that I can still remember.

Did I choose to be attracted to my friend? Hell no! I finally gave in to my desires, this lead me to think (I was a dumb kid) that I had "taught" myself to be gay, for years I thought if I had only resisted the urge, if I had not gave in.

If a guy can "flip a switch", then good for him, most guys can't, again, in a perfect world it wouldn't matter, we would not concern ourselves with what another does.

The world is not perfect, for one to tell the majority "I decided to be gay" is pure bull shit.

 

[bankside]

I can think of nothing less smooth to say to my guy than "My attraction to you is an unavoidable biological function."

The trouble with the whole "it can't be changed" political campaign is that it runs into a Wall of Romantic Bad Taste. Everyone wants to be chosen by someone that they also choose. Taking choice out of the equation will never fly simply on grounds of being a boner-wilting downer.

It definitely isn't smooth, but is it how our biology actually works though?

I don't think so. I believe there are some people with no in-born potential to enjoy a homosexual relationship, and I believe there are some with no in-born potential to enjoy a heterosexual relationship. But I think they are a much tinier minority than is assumed. I just don't buy it based on history, what I've seen people actually do in my lifetime... In fact, I think most people (more than 50%) could actually do well with either men or women, in some kind of "yes I want to have regular sex with this person" way. BUT society has frowned on that, and people don't miss what they've never had and it has to be a strange set of circumstances before any of those people actually figure out they could enjoy both, at least in the world we have made.

My guess is (well it's a bit more than a guess), that in the right kind of open society, literally most people could learn that they would enjoy a same-sex relationship.

 

[peeonme]

I can think of nothing less smooth to say to my guy than "My attraction to you is an unavoidable biological function."

The trouble with the whole "it can't be changed" political campaign is that it runs into a Wall of Romantic Bad Taste. Everyone wants to be chosen by someone that they also choose. Taking choice out of the equation will never fly simply on grounds of being a boner-wilting downer.

It definitely isn't smooth, but is it how our biology actually works though?

I don't think so. I believe there are some people with no in-born potential to enjoy a homosexual relationship, and I believe there are some with no in-born potential to enjoy a heterosexual relationship. But I think they are a much tinier minority than is assumed. I just don't buy it based on history, what I've seen people actually do in my lifetime... In fact, I think most people (more than 50%) could actually do well with either men or women, in some kind of "yes I want to have regular sex with this person" way. BUT society has frowned on that, and people don't miss what they've never had and it has to be a strange set of circumstances before any of those people actually figure out they could enjoy both, at least in the world we have made.

My guess is (well it's a bit more than a guess), that in the right kind of open society, literally most people could learn that they would enjoy a same-sex relationship.

I agree with the 50% in a "free" society, I have often wondered what life would be like if sex it's self was not so "taboo".
I even wonder if we are supposed to monogamous, not that I am against monogamy, but it is an imposed norm. IMO

 

[kallipolis]

Self deception, or suppressing ones true self is a product of social engineering in as much as there are people who marry a person of the opposite sex knowing full well that were they not encumbered with pressure from family, peers, and their religious affiliation they would be true to who they know themselves to be....

....I have known several gay men who married, and fathered children.....upon reaching their forties escaped from their self constructed prison cell, to live in freedom from fear of the unknown.....in most cases their marriages ended, usually on amicable terms...better late, than never...

It can be argued that sexual orientation is morally neutral...until one chooses to act upon ones natural urges....more so when choosing to deny ones natural sexual desires when donning a mask that tells the world that we are what we say we are....a masquerade,....self deception that leads to a marriage born out of deceit....the consequences are only too obvious for another human person has been deceived.....moral relativism wears a dishonest face deluding even those who trust us.

So called gay conversion therapy is another manifestation of self deception....attempting to be that which we know we are not...

“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I can think of nothing less smooth to say to my guy than "My attraction to you is an unavoidable biological function."

I don't think anyone would ever say this to their boyfriends or husbands. Why I am with my guy is more than pure attraction and I would hope all of our boyfriends knew this. But what draws me to men is attraction which is not a choice.

The trouble with the whole "it can't be changed" political campaign is that it runs into a Wall of Romantic Bad Taste. Everyone wants to be chosen by someone that they also choose. Taking choice out of the equation will never fly simply on grounds of being a boner-wilting downer.

The choice of being with a specific person and romantics have nothing to do with what gender one can't choose to be attracted to. It feels like another way of weasling choice into sexuality and people having problems where the choice actually is.

As for the rest of your argument it all really just sounds like what ignorant straight people have said to me during my life "how do you know you don't like it if you never tried it?". You have just fluffed it up a bit.