Gay Conversion Therapists Claim Most Patients Fully Straight By The Time They Commit Suicide

[gsdx]

Actually, we should never get into the debate of whether it is a choice or not. Even if it is a choice, it's none of their business.

LOL you guys crack me up.

But the debate is the problem. They insist that it is a choice and that it can be 'cured'. This also implies that it is an illness. They insist that we have an agenda, and that is to spread homosexuality throughout the world. Yet they completely ignore their own 'choices', their own agenda. They want to make a world in their own image, and that puts them right up there with God.

There are a lot of good Christians in the world, just like there are a lot of great homosexuals in the world. It's the bad ones who ruin it for the rest.

 

[JohnnyAnger]

The issue with the whole born this way thing is that it feels like an apology for who we are. That is why I am with Zombie on this and say fuck it - we don't know the what makes us gay and what would it matter if we choice it. Its no ones business but my own that I am gay and there is nothing wrong with it. I don't make any excuses for my sexuality, I am what I am.

Now the problem all starts when people believe they can change other people's sexuality. This is clearly pointless and needs to end. The way to challenge this is not to say I was born this way, but to fucking tell them we don't care they think its wrong any more. It is not wrong, and never has been.

 

[zombiekiller]

From reading your posts I would say that you were cracked up before this.
Are you still gay?

My boyfriend just gave me a morning kiss and I got an erection from that. So, I'm assuming I'm still gay.

 

[peeonme]

The issue with the whole born this way thing is that it feels like an apology for who we are. That is why I am with Zombie on this and say fuck it - we don't know the what makes us gay and what would it matter if we choice it. Its no ones business but my own that I am gay and there is nothing wrong with it. I don't make any excuses for my sexuality, I am what I am.

Now the problem all starts when people believe they can change other people's sexuality. This is clearly pointless and needs to end. The way to challenge this is not to say I was born this way, but to fucking tell them we don't care they think its wrong any more. It is not wrong, and never has been.

The problem is when little Billy tells mom and dad that he likes boys, he can't just say "fuck it" when mom and dad send him away to get him cured.
Again, this thread was about conversion therapy and why it does not work.
Zombie has sated in this thread that he is "convinced" that he can change, then he says that he is not sure.
What part of Zombie are you with?

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I personally never saw being born this way as an apology and was something meant to prove ignorance wrong. Which to me, ignorance should always be corrected. It also has benefits such as peeonme said, when it comes to a teenager coming to terms with themselves realizing that there in fact is nothing wrong with them, which I tend to think is the bigger push of it. Too many people go through this by being made to feel abnormal or different, when they're not and they shouldn't be made to feel that way.

Of course as adults we realize there is nothing wrong with a choice if that were indeed the case, but I still think that letting people know that is not a choice is still important. Also it helps discredit Gay Conversion "Therapy" and how damaging this "therapy" can be.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

So if one is to believe that being gay is a choice, does that mean that Gay Conversion Therapy works? Or does that make Gay Conversion Therapy irrelevant at that point? Because if people think that you need therapy to "cure" being gay, doesn't that mean in some way these people that believe it works are inadvertently admitting that it isn't a choice?

 

[Devois]

The problem is when little Billy tells mom and dad that he likes boys, he can't just say "fuck it" when mom and dad send him away to get him cured.

Exactly. If you know can't change someone, you can either ban his behaviour, spite him or kill him. In which persecution is either ultimately hopeless or too drastic and can be difficult to accomplish without legal backing. Whereas homophobes who do believe gays can be reformed also harm people they care about, especially their own children. As adults in reasonably free countries, it doesn't make a difference for us because nobody is forcing us to change. So we can stand tall and proud and tell homophobes how little their opinions mean to us. But if they have control over the lives of others, their opinions no matter how demented they may be are not insignificant.

 

[JohnnyAnger]

I really don't believe in gay conversion therapy or the idea that parents sent their children away to be treated. I think the whole topic is a deeply personal one.


I don't think Zombie, who is clearly an ardent atheist, is saying conversion therapy is OK in anyway nor that parents should seek to change their children. But that sexuality is a deeply personal topic, and not really one we understand. I see no problem in someone saying their sexuality has changed, as long as it is a decision made with no outside influences on them. Its not up to me how anyone views their sexuality, and I am in no position to tell someone they cannot change.

 

[JohnnyAnger]

Exactly. If you know can't change someone, you can either ban his behaviour, spite him or kill him.

Or you know, they can grow the fuck up and change themselves rather than force anything onto others.

 

[peeonme]

I have seen churches preach to the alcoholics, to drug users, to crooks, pimps and prostitutes.
I once confronted a pastor of the church that I attended, I asked him why the church did not put out the same welcome mat for gays.
I was young and believed that God hated me for being gay, this pastor told me that "it's such a deep seated sin that one can't change"

If one is a Christian and believes a fundamentalist doctrine, believes that homosexuality is a sin along with drunkenness and such, then he should believe that God can save all, deliver all, help all.

Mark 2:1-9
1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

According to the Bible one thing should not be more difficult than the other, yet the pastor I spoke with believed that Christ has limitations.
This made me question why God didn't help me, didn't "deliver me".
It took many years to learn that God does not make mistakes, he made me as he chose.

For some to say that it is a frivolous choice, today I will be gay, tomorrow straight, it's all up to me is to tell those who are against gay rights that gays should change if they want equality.

 

[Vitamin]

I'm not opposed to satire, on the contrary.

But isn't this rather a cruel satire?

No, this is perfect productive satire. When you're actually trying to make a point with it, satire should be at least somewhat disturbing.

 

[TheLoveableLoner]

The ones who give a fuck are parents who need to be properly informed about human sexuality so they won't kick their teen age child out of the house for being gay.

The ones who give a fuck are the boys who don't understand why their buddy just started looking so sexy to them. I am not out to argue the point with dick heads who are so damn stupid that they think it's all a choice, but, kids need to know, their parents need to know that no one chooses.

Their parents need to know that it doesn't matter if one chooses or not.

 

[zombiekiller]

The problem is when little Billy tells mom and dad that he likes boys, he can't just say "fuck it" when mom and dad send him away to get him cured.
Again, this thread was about conversion therapy and why it does not work.
Zombie has sated in this thread that he is "convinced" that he can change, then he says that he is not sure.
What part of Zombie are you with?

And little Billy's mom and dad need to understand that human sexuality is morally neutral. The message we should be sending to little Billy's parents is NOT THAT he was born with it or that he can't change. The message should be there is nothing wrong with little Billy's sexuality, regardless of if it is gay or straight or bi or trans or whatever else.

 

[zombiekiller]

So if one is to believe that being gay is a choice, does that mean that Gay Conversion Therapy works? Or does that make Gay Conversion Therapy irrelevant at that point? Because if people think that you need therapy to "cure" being gay, doesn't that mean in some way these people that believe it works are inadvertently admitting that it isn't a choice?

You are not understanding what we are saying. We are not saying being gay is a choice. We are saying that it doesn't matter either way. We should be sending the message that human sexuality is morally neutral. Not everything needs to be given a moral value.

In regard to gay conversion therapy, instead of telling christian bigots that it doesn't work, we should inform them of the incredible harm it has on youths over something that has no moral value.

Scientific advances are happening regardless of whether we like it or not. Based on your argument right now, what if tomorrow scientists discover the on-off switch for homosexuality somewhere inside the brain, and all it takes is an ultra-sound scan at the right frequency? What's your argument then?

Again, let me repeat. The message we should be sending is human sexuality is morally neutral and that there is nothing wrong with being gay regardless of whether it is a choice or not. Not everything needs to be given a moral value. Walking in the park is one. Me sitting on my couch at the moment is another. It's neither right nor wrong. Same as me dating another man instead of woman.

Added by edit.

Here is an example of what I mean by scientists accidentally discovering on-off switches in the human brain.

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/researchers-may-have-discovered-consciousness-onoff-switch

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

What I'm saying is there's always the possibility that there are people who chose to be gay or straight. Who they decide to sleep with has nothing to do with me. It is morally neutral. It shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not.

You are not understanding what we are saying. We are not saying being gay is a choice. We are saying that it doesn't matter either way. We should be sending the message that human sexuality is morally neutral. Not everything needs to be given a moral value.

You are saying or alluding to it being a choice in several posts earlier in the thread. Please make up your mind on where you stand because If I am having trouble understanding you it is because you are being unclear.

 

[sixthson]

Their parents need to know that it doesn't matter if one chooses or not.

If a parent can kick a child out of their home for being gay, then this goes deeper than just not approving of the child's sexuality.
This goes to the very soul of the parent and the hate that resides within them. They would feel the same if their white daughter dated a black boy. Again, it's about hate. These same parents would talk a good talk about love, but there is no love in them.

Two weeks ago, I saw my brother and someone mentioned having an interior decorator to do some work. My brother's response was that all those male decorators are gay and no one wants "them" in their house. When I reminded him that I was in his house, he told me to leave and that he never wanted a relationship with me again. This from someone who calls himself a christian and is an elder in his church. It just came out of the blue. I said "fine" and walked out. It hurt badly even though I always knew he was a homophobe and bigot. He has said more than once if one of his children were gay, they would never be welcome in his home again. I lived in hope that he might change. I can't do that any more. I can only imagine that a young gay person might turn to self destructive behavior when they hear things like that from someone they love, whether it be parent, sibling or friend.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

And little Billy's mom and dad need to understand that human sexuality is morally neutral. The message we should be sending to little Billy's parents is NOT THAT he was born with it or that he can't change. The message should be there is nothing wrong with little Billy's sexuality, regardless of if it is gay or straight or bi or trans or whatever else.

And you're missing where the messages are being sent, the people being told that it can't be changed are the individuals who think it can be and want it to be changed. The people being told they are born that way are told that is because it includes in that message that there is nothing wrong with it. You say you don't think being gay is a choice, but at the same time you're saying that you shouldn't tell someone they can't change their sexuality. It is hard to understand where you are coming from when you have trouble saying where you are coming from.

 

[zombiekiller]

You are saying or alluding to it being a choice in several posts earlier in the thread. Please make up your mind on where you stand because If I am having trouble understanding you it is because you are being unclear.

What I've said is in my case the issue hasn't come up yet. I jokingly said once or twice that I am convinced I can change. As to whether people can change their sexuality or not, I don't know.

My argument is and has always been it doesn't matter. The question of whether human sexuality is a choice or not should be a non-issue. I reserve the right to change if ever I should decide to.

So, say next year scientists discovers the on-off switch to homosexuality as a sexual orientation, I reserve the right to walk into a clinic and have them flip the switch in my brain. Why? Because it's neither right nor wrong to be gay or straight. It's morally neutral.

 

[zombiekiller]

And you're missing where the messages are being sent, the people being told that it can't be changed are the individuals who think it can be and want it to be changed. The people being told they are born that way are told that is because it includes in that message that there is nothing wrong with it. You say you don't think being gay is a choice, but at the same time you're saying that you shouldn't tell someone they can't change their sexuality. It is hard to understand where you are coming from when you have trouble saying where you are coming from.

Why is it hard to understand where I'm coming from?

Let me repeat. It doesn't matter whether it is a choice or not. There are lots of anecdotes about people not being able to change. It doesn't mean these anecdotes apply to everyone. And again, it doesn't matter.

There is nothing wrong or right with little Billy being gay. There is nothing wrong or right with little Billy being straight. There is nothing wrong or right with little Billy being trans. What's wrong is risking inflicting psychological and physical harm on little Billy using harmful methods over reasons that are non-issues.

 

[JohnnyAnger]

^ Damn your brother sounds like a dick. You have been out for ages right? Why the sudden switch on his part.

Broadly I feel we should take the line that sexuality is morally neutral. It does not matter how I came to be an out gay man, I am one and no one else will ever change that. I don't need to say "sorry I can't change it", I say 'fuck it I am gay, get with that being fine idiots'. I don't think we need the get out of jail free card of biology, we should be respected no matter how we become gay or straight.