Gay Marriage & Illegal Immigration

[Chalchalero]

All right, I have found the text for what I am assuming is now the correct bill to which you refer - my apologies for the earlier misunderstanding.

If this is the bill to which you refer: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-1033

then Section 601 first of all does not have a (g) (2). It does not even go to (g).

The text of the section has nothing at all do with the strange fear mongering accusations your right wing sources have claimed. Have you actually read this at all yourself, or are you relying entirely on Fox News and their ilk to spoon feed you all of your information?

SEC. 601. ELIMINATION OF EXISTING BACKLOGS.

(a) Family-Sponsored Immigrants- Section 201(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1151(c)) is amended to read as follows:

`(c) Worldwide Level of Family-Sponsored Immigrants- The worldwide level of family-sponsored immigrants under this subsection for a fiscal year is equal to the sum of--

`(1) 480,000;

`(2) the difference between the maximum number of visas authorized to be issued under this subsection during the previous fiscal year and the number of visas issued during the previous fiscal year; and

`(3) the difference between--

`(A) the maximum number of visas authorized to be issued under this subsection during fiscal years 2001 through 2005 minus the number of visas issued under this subsection during those years; and

`(B) the number of visas described in subparagraph (A) that were issued after fiscal year 2005.'.

(b) Employment-Based Immigrants- Section 201(d) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1151(d)) is amended to read as follows:

`(d) Worldwide Level of Employment-Based Immigrants- The worldwide level of employment-based immigrants under this subsection for a fiscal year is equal to the sum of--

`(1) 290,000;

`(2) the difference between the maximum number of visas authorized to be issued under this subsection during the previous fiscal year and the number of visas issued during the previous fiscal year; and

`(3) the difference between--

`(A) the maximum number of visas authorized to be issued under this subsection during fiscal years 2001 through 2005 and the number of visa numbers issued under this subsection during those years; and

`(B) the number of visas described in subparagraph (A) that were issued after fiscal year 2005.'.

As you can see, no mention of any of the wild claims you made, and no Section 601(g)(2).

Your words "So you would not be afraid if there were government agents invading your home on the simple "suspicion" that there might be a reason for doing so? I really do not believe that. "

Has to be one of the most unreal things I have heard. No one has said ANYTHING about going house to house. Again these people do NOT have a right to be in the country. If through the daily process of police workplace raids illegal immigrants are deported great. I do not understand the problem.

Actually, yes they did. Or at least it was implied by your own quote:

“NCLR is alarmed at the raids and neighborhood sweeps being conducted in southern California targeting Latino residents,” stated Yzaguirre. “These raids are terrorizing large communities which include immigrants and native-born U.S. citizens. We’re hearing that many in our community are fearful of leaving their homes, school attendance in several schools is down, and health clinics report that patients are fearful of venturing out to keep their appointments for health services.”

Source Link (added by moderator): http://nclr.org/content/news/detail/25365/

As you see in the emboldened part, the communities which are targeted include both immigrants and native born US citizens. Also, there does not seem to be any discernment as to the legal status of the immigrants themselves. It seems like just blanket raids aimed at the entire Hispanic community, and this is wrong if it is the case. I am only going by your own citation here.

It appears that NCLR is not alone in their disapproval either. From your very own Cox News (which sounds so much like its evil twin...):

Hispanic Lawmakers Denounce 'Inhumane' Immigration Raids

By EUNICE MOSCOSO
Cox News Service
Wednesday, May 21, 2008

WASHINGTON — Members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus on Tuesday accused federal agents of conducting "inhumane" immigration raids that hurt children, including many U.S. citizens.

Rep. Joe Baca, D-Calif., president of the caucus, said that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), the agency conducting the raids, is tearing families apart.

"It's not ICE's job to intimidate individuals, regardless. It's not ICE's job to humiliate individuals. It's not ICE's job to leave hundreds of children without parents," he told a Capitol Hill press conference.

http://www.coxwashington.com/report.../stories/2008/05/21/RAIDS_CHILDREN21_COX.html

As for the 1986 amnesty, there was a provision in the Immigration Reform and Control Act Amnesty of 1986 which enacted stronger enforcement measures of the immigration law (including sanctions for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens); increased border controls; and created a program to verify the immigration status of aliens applying for certain welfare benefits. The problem is that if these measures are not being utilised, then you continue to have a problem. There do not need to be fences and new laws, but rather enforcement of the existing laws.

As to the e-mail exchange which you cite, you are expecting me to believe that because a homophobic self aggrandising polemicist claims that 98 percent of Hispanics agree with him (without ANY SUPPORTING DATA, by the way), this is supposed to be accepted as fact? What you have here is a man's opinion. ONE MAN, no matter how many "supporters" he claims to have. The e-mail and its contents still came from one man and one man alone. And as an Hispanic, I can say that he does not speak for me. I am sure 98 percent of Hispanics will agree with me. (When I throw out stupid lines like that, will you just blindly believe me, too?)

As to your article regarding Hispanics and their opposition to gay marriage, you still have no source for data which supports your contention that "most" Latinos support illegal immigration; the article you cited does not address the issue; and the article only deals with Hispanic citizens who are able to vote, and not illegal immigrants.

I must reiterate: Where is the correlation between supposed Hispanic support for open borders and illegal immigration and their reported opposition to gay marriage?

Also, it seems you forgot to read a huge chunk of your own article.

Gay rights activists, however, say that the few polls conducted on Hispanics and gay marriage are misleading. Given the proper information, the say, Hispanics see the issue as a quest for fairness and civil rights.
"Whether their personal conviction or their religious conviction may tell them otherwise, they see discrimination when one group receives benefits that are denied to another group," said Martin Ornelas-Quintero, executive director of LLEGO, a national Hispanic lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender organization.
Ornelas-Quintero said his group finds positive reactions to gay marriage in Hispanic focus groups in places such as New York and Miami.

Harry Pachon, president of the Tomas Rivera Policy Institute at the University of Southern California, said that the survey results are no surprise.
Around 40 percent of Hispanic voters are foreign-born, naturalized citizens who come from very conservative, Catholic Latin American nations, he said.
"There are a lot of home-country attitudes" against homosexuality, he said.
But the tolerance for gay marriage and gay clergy increases markedly in the second generation, Pachon added.

Source Link: (added by moderator): http://ustimes.us/hispanics_oppose_gay_marriage.htm

I would think you would be able to find some encouragement in these statements. I know I do.

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

A border fence is effective as has been shown where it has been used. You are right. A fence alone will not stop illegal immigrants drugs or criminals for example. Thats why I said PART of the solution. Zero tolerance is also working in Arizona. If you get caught comming in illegally you go to jail not just released. Our federal government has the duty to secure our borders and ports.

I am sorry its not good for property owners on the border. Most do like the idea though as they see the crime such as all the murders on the border for example and drug lords. There have been lots of property owners who did not like highways and airports near them but that did not stop it.

I do not know how to make my point more clearer. I am just saying I find it interesting that those that are advocating for illegals in the country also agree with denying US citizens equal rights.

Apparently those who will have to give up the most for the fence and deal with its ramifications on a daily basis do not agree with you.

Texas Border Mayors Sue Homeland Secretary Chertoff
By EUNICE MOSCOSO
Cox News Service
Saturday, May 17, 2008

http://www.coxwashington.com/report.../stories/2008/05/17/BORDER_LAWSUIT17_COX.html

[Quoted text: Removed by Moderator]

Great work on the part of Homeland Security. Usurp the rights of US citizens and property owners; disregard the environment and environmental laws; harass and intimidate hard working landowners into giving up their land...

You are right. The fence is a great idea...

 

[bighair]

Feel like a holiday in Australia, Kulindahr?

 

[Lostlover]

Why do I support gay marriage? Because the issue is US citizens who are being denied rights because of something they can not change. I think when we say "they" can marry but "they" can not thats wrong.

I also believe in "Sovereignty". The USA takes in over 2 million LEGAL immigrants a year more then any other country on the face of the planet. I seen many idiots in the gay community back people by a CHOICE should not even be in the USA. I am sorry.

But you do not just break in a country and violate its laws, its borders, march, show disrespect like walking on the US flag waving foreign flags etc. Illegal immigrants are people who do not have a right to be here not because of skin, not because of race, not because of religion but because they have broke in like a thief in the night or overstayed their visas when told to leave as they are GUESTS.

How are the two related you ask gay marriage and illegal immigration? Here is a copy from CNN. Please keep in mind of all the latino marches for illegals (many of them are latino people of their race--or they would not care). So we have latinos defending violating the USA. Here is the copy of part of the article notice the last sentence.

"This is not a Republican versus Democratic issue," Hoffenblum says. "A key area of the Democratic coalition here in California are Latino voters and African-American voters. But all surveys have shown among those who are most against gay marriage, it is African-Americans and Latinos."

So let me see if I have this straight. Blacks who fought for equal rights and latinos who really do not have a leg to stand on (they defending violating the USA as a nation with borders) are the most against gay marriage? What a bunch of HYPOCRITES!!

Poor you! You should see all the prejudices by the gay community against them! And you have some nerve.

Like one comedian says, "I'd rather be black than gay because at least I won't need to tell my mother that I'm black."

Just look at this forum too. So many people creeped out by having a black candidate. The prejudices for racial minorities and gays are real... don't be a part of it with your paranoia.

Leave that hysteria to the older people. You're only 27.

 

[oak999]

Well-said.



How much you wanna bet that survey is atleast slightly inaccurate? And theoretically, since the largest group of black opposers to gay marriage is the church crowd, they're not hypocrites. Their rights as blacks are because of something they can't control. Their view of homosexuality is that the "lifestyle" is a choice. Desires aside, sleeping with a man IS a choice, having a boyfriend IS a choice. Therefore, from their perspective, they have every right to oppose gay marriage without being called hypocrites.

And you expect gay to to accept this? I say if these same blacks do not support equal rights for those that are of a different sexual orientation they can SCREW OFF before they get support from me. They are hypocrites. WHO THE HELL WOULD CHOOSE TO BE GAY??? Its not a choice.

Its a choice to go out and do a crime. Blacks make up 12% of the population and over half of the prison population in some states. Black leaders are quick to defend their people. So with your logic that being gay IS A CHOICE doing a crime IS A CHOICE so I say fine deny gays rights.

Also leave the blacks in prison that are there to rot just like the whites and latinos there.

 

[oak999]

All right, I have found the text for what I am assuming is now the correct bill to which you refer - my apologies for the earlier misunderstanding.

If this is the bill to which you refer: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-1033

then Section 601 first of all does not have a (g) (2). It does not even go to (g).

The text of the section has nothing at all do with the strange fear mongering accusations your right wing sources have claimed. Have you actually read this at all yourself, or are you relying entirely on Fox News and their ilk to spoon feed you all of your information?



As you can see, no mention of any of the wild claims you made, and no Section 601(g)(2).



Actually, yes they did. Or at least it was implied by your own quote:


As you see in the emboldened part, the communities which are targeted include both immigrants and native born US citizens. Also, there does not seem to be any discernment as to the legal status of the immigrants themselves. It seems like just blanket raids aimed at the entire Hispanic community, and this is wrong if it is the case. I am only going by your own citation here.

It appears that NCLR is not alone in their disapproval either. From your very own Cox News (which sounds so much like its evil twin...):



As for the 1986 amnesty, there was a provision in the Immigration Reform and Control Act Amnesty of 1986 which enacted stronger enforcement measures of the immigration law (including sanctions for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens); increased border controls; and created a program to verify the immigration status of aliens applying for certain welfare benefits. The problem is that if these measures are not being utilised, then you continue to have a problem. There do not need to be fences and new laws, but rather enforcement of the existing laws.

As to the e-mail exchange which you cite, you are expecting me to believe that because a homophobic self aggrandising polemicist claims that 98 percent of Hispanics agree with him (without ANY SUPPORTING DATA, by the way), this is supposed to be accepted as fact? What you have here is a man's opinion. ONE MAN, no matter how many "supporters" he claims to have. The e-mail and its contents still came from one man and one man alone. And as an Hispanic, I can say that he does not speak for me. I am sure 98 percent of Hispanics will agree with me. (When I throw out stupid lines like that, will you just blindly believe me, too?)

As to your article regarding Hispanics and their opposition to gay marriage, you still have no source for data which supports your contention that "most" Latinos support illegal immigration; the article you cited does not address the issue; and the article only deals with Hispanic citizens who are able to vote, and not illegal immigrants.

I must reiterate: Where is the correlation between supposed Hispanic support for open borders and illegal immigration and their reported opposition to gay marriage?

Also, it seems you forgot to read a huge chunk of your own article.


I would think you would be able to find some encouragement in these statements. I know I do.

OH I see. So because a few people on the border do not want it secure and do not want the fence we should leave it open to all the problems its causing for this country?

Let me ask a question. If you have to run 100 feet which would be faster? With NOTHING in the way? Or with a double layer 50 foot big ass fence there? You see again I will repeat the fence is there to buy time not to stop illegal entry. The agents can not be everywhere.

http://banderasnews.com/0710/edop-ontheborder.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/13/border.wire/index.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/International/story?id=1477964

If you wish to see more of what kinds of crimes are going on at our border just look it up you will find hundreds.

There are some hispanics that are against illegal immmigration and are TRUE US patriots such as "you dont speak for me".

I stand by what I said. Most latinos and blacks are strongly against gays but are for breaking the laws to come into a nation illegally as long as they are latino. A good deal of blacks enjoy playing the victim but myself dealing with many blacks they hate gays.

What is the word for people like that? HYPOCRITE

 

[Chalchalero]

OH I see. So because a few people on the border do not want it secure and do not want the fence we should leave it open to all the problems its causing for this country?

Let me ask a question. If you have to run 100 feet which would be faster? With NOTHING in the way? Or with a double layer 50 foot big ass fence there? You see again I will repeat the fence is there to buy time not to stop illegal entry. The agents can not be everywhere.

http://banderasnews.com/0710/edop-ontheborder.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/13/border.wire/index.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/International/story?id=1477964

If you wish to see more of what kinds of crimes are going on at our border just look it up you will find hundreds.

There are some hispanics that are against illegal immmigration and are TRUE US patriots such as "you dont speak for me".

I stand by what I said. Most latinos and blacks are strongly against gays but are for breaking the laws to come into a nation illegally as long as they are latino. A good deal of blacks enjoy playing the victim but myself dealing with many blacks they hate gays.

What is the word for people like that? HYPOCRITE

You keep making blanket (and more and more unpleasant) statements with no evidence to support your charges. You are no longer worthy of debating because you crossed a line with your post to Marley. I have my own opinions about where all of this rage and hatred of yours is coming from, but I am not your shrink and I do not care enough about you. I am just done with you.

 

[Nishin]

What is the word for people like ^^ ? BIGOT

 

[Chalchalero]

What is the word for people like ^^ ? BIGOT

There is, as I have said before, a great deal of bigotry masquerading as patriotism in this country and it makes me sick to my stomach. Not that they are bigots, as I believe we all have a right to hate whomever we please. What annoys me is that they are such hypocrites about it, couching it in border safety and patriotism and other ridiculous smokescreens like that. If you do not like Hispanics or blacks, then have the balls to stand up for your principles and tell the world how you feel. Don't be such a lying wuss pretending you care so much about the borders, when in reality the most "dangerous" illegal immigrant you have ever come across in your life served you water and bread at the last restaurant where you dined out.

hypocrite:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

I always come with sources to back up my claims.

 

[oak999]

You keep making blanket (and more and more unpleasant) statements with no evidence to support your charges. You are no longer worthy of debating because you crossed a line with your post to Marley. I have my own opinions about where all of this rage and hatred of yours is coming from, but I am not your shrink and I do not care enough about you. I am just done with you.

"Those making the biggest shifts included African-Americans. On whether homosexual relations should be legal, their support fell from 58% in May to 36% in July."

Seen here http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-07-28-poll_x.htm

"African-Americans are more likely than whites — by a 65 percent-to-53 percent margin — to oppose marriage equality for gays and lesbians, according to a new report by the National Black Justice Coalition and Freedom to Marry.

The study showed that African-Americans are “virtually the only constituency in the country that has not become more supportive over the last dozen years, falling from a high of 65 percent support for gay rights in 1996 to only 40 percent in 2004.”

seen here http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/publish/article_9008.php

"
"Rather than construct a wall, 63 percent of Latinos in Texas support a pathway to citizenship as a means of addressing illegal immigration."

seen here http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/26/latinos.commentary/index.html

Let me translate this study for you. The latinos polled favored no border fence but instead would like a pathway to citizenship. NICE!! Come in break the laws DONT secure the border but instead give citizenship yea I guess if we did that no more illegal immigrants would come in. Also with that unsecure border we would not have to worry about drugs, terrorists, criminals comming in.

Remember what you wish for. People are being killed US citizens on our border.

"
In many Latino communities, machismo and Catholicism contribute to homophobic attitudes that hamper efforts to reach Latino gay and bisexual youth with HIV prevention information.[8] "

Seen here http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsglbt.htm#references

 

[oak999]

I'd urge you not to respond unless you're going to properly interpret my posts. I didn't say "BEING GAY" was a choice, I said the actions ASSOCIATED with homosexuality are a choice. Is it not a choice to sleep with a man? Is it not a choice to suck a dick? I'm not saying they're right, but their argument holds because it makes sense. Who we are isn't a choice, but what we do IS.



Since you obviously are set in your ways, I won't spend too much time educating you on the discriminational practices of our judicial system. In MANY areas such as drugs-use, drug-selling, and violence, blacks commit less crimes than our white counterparts. For whatever reason (I won't say racism cuz we all know it doesn't exist anymoer) the courts throw blacks in jail more often. We're not in there because we commit more crimes, we're in there because the courts put is in there more often, at an alarmingly disproportionate rate. I'd like to hear your response to this.



That's awfully judgmental of you but that's another post for another day.

How is that judgment? That is what has been said by black leaders. They have stated that blacks should not be in prison. Another words when it comes to gay its a choice. When it comes to people who committ crimes who are black its not.

 

[oak999]

There is, as I have said before, a great deal of bigotry masquerading as patriotism in this country and it makes me sick to my stomach. Not that they are bigots, as I believe we all have a right to hate whomever we please. What annoys me is that they are such hypocrites about it, couching it in border safety and patriotism and other ridiculous smokescreens like that. If you do not like Hispanics or blacks, then have the balls to stand up for your principles and tell the world how you feel. Don't be such a lying wuss pretending you care so much about the borders, when in reality the most "dangerous" illegal immigrant you have ever come across in your life served you water and bread at the last restaurant where you dined out.

hypocrite:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

I always come with sources to back up my claims.

Thats nice

Police killing puts focus on illegal immigrant crime


Phoenix Business Journal - by Mike Sunnucks The Business Journal

police officer by an illegal immigrant from Mexico has heightened debate over undocumented residents and crime.

Phoenix Police officer Nick Erlie was shot and killed by Erik Jovani Martinez, an illegal who previously was deported and had an arrest warrant. Martinez was shot and killed by police after taking a hostage. He had been arrested eight times.



Illegal immigrant gets 14 years for stabbing woman

He will have to serve 85 percent of the sentence before he is eligible for parole and could be deported


By Brian Cox | Special to the Tribune 12:44 AM CDT, June 17, 2008




An undocumented Mexican immigrant was sentenced Monday to 14 years in prison after he was found guilty in April of attempted murder and aggravated domestic battery for stabbing a woman during an argument at the Glen View Club in north suburban Golf, prosecutors said.


"Johnson was testifying at a hearing to determine if there is enough evidence against reputed 18th Street gang member Pedro Espinoza to try him on a
murder charge.

Espinoza's murder charge includes the special circumstance allegation that the defendant was "an active participant in a criminal street gang and
the murder was carried out to further the activities of the criminal street gang."

This I can back up. Would like posts to all the crimes committed by people who should not even be in the country? There are 10s of thousands. Does that mean ALL illegal immigrants committ crimes? No. But please do not make this out to be no big deal.

 

[oak999]

There is, as I have said before, a great deal of bigotry masquerading as patriotism in this country and it makes me sick to my stomach. Not that they are bigots, as I believe we all have a right to hate whomever we please. What annoys me is that they are such hypocrites about it, couching it in border safety and patriotism and other ridiculous smokescreens like that. If you do not like Hispanics or blacks, then have the balls to stand up for your principles and tell the world how you feel. Don't be such a lying wuss pretending you care so much about the borders, when in reality the most "dangerous" illegal immigrant you have ever come across in your life served you water and bread at the last restaurant where you dined out.

hypocrite:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

I always come with sources to back up my claims.

If I hated people I would have NO PROBLEM telling you at all. I do have a problem with people comming in a country I and my family has fought for and defended while they come in illegally demand citizenship, fly foreign flags (if someone has that much loyalty to the country they came from they should go back) refuse to assimilate, and defend breaking in.

I have a problem with black activists that claim blacks are the victims in prison. Hey I have a idea to those black,white, latino or whoever is in prison doing a sentence. STOP DOING THE CRIMES!!! I mean as another member here pointed out on gays being a choice doing crimes is a choice right?

 

[oak999]

I HIGHLY doubt any black leader ever said blacks shouldn't be put in prison. I'm almost 100% positive you've taken a statement from a black leader and twisted it to suit your argument. You keep saying "they" and "they said" and offer no links to official or even believable studies. How do you accurately measure which races support homosexuality? The ONLY plausiable, fair way to do that would be to anonymously interview every member of every race. Something like that has so many variables and x-factors that any "study" of it would almost HAVE to have an ulterior agenda.


You're really hurting your argument by misquoting me. I didn't say homosexuality is a choice, I said homosexual ACTIVITIES are a choice.

Please go to post 34 to find the links. See I actually do post the links but it does involve people hitting that thing on the mouse called a BUTTON to see them.

 

[Chalchalero]

"Those making the biggest shifts included African-Americans. On whether homosexual relations should be legal, their support fell from 58% in May to 36% in July."

Seen here http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-07-28-poll_x.htm

"African-Americans are more likely than whites — by a 65 percent-to-53 percent margin — to oppose marriage equality for gays and lesbians, according to a new report by the National Black Justice Coalition and Freedom to Marry.

The study showed that African-Americans are “virtually the only constituency in the country that has not become more supportive over the last dozen years, falling from a high of 65 percent support for gay rights in 1996 to only 40 percent in 2004.”

seen here http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/publish/article_9008.php

"
"Rather than construct a wall, 63 percent of Latinos in Texas support a pathway to citizenship as a means of addressing illegal immigration."

seen here http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/26/latinos.commentary/index.html

Let me translate this study for you. The latinos polled favored no border fence but instead would like a pathway to citizenship. NICE!! Come in break the laws DONT secure the border but instead give citizenship yea I guess if we did that no more illegal immigrants would come in. Also with that unsecure border we would not have to worry about drugs, terrorists, criminals comming in.

Remember what you wish for. People are being killed US citizens on our border.

"
In many Latino communities, machismo and Catholicism contribute to homophobic attitudes that hamper efforts to reach Latino gay and bisexual youth with HIV prevention information.[8] "

Seen here http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsglbt.htm#references

I had originally told myself that I was not going to deal with you anymore because you were reaching a level of all hysteria and no facts and you were becoming a little ruder than usual. But now that I see you have at least made an effort to support your claims, I believe I do owe you the courtesy of addressing them.

As for the first two links I am not in disagreement with you. I have frequently been aware of studies in which African Americans have been hostile to the idea of gay marriage. But that was not the purpose of your thread. You were angry you claimed because Latinos were apparently running amok with open borders (and, I am assuming committing crimes and selling drugs, etc) while somehow preventing you from your God given right to marry, etc, etc. Am I right so far? Of course I am.

So getting back to your Latino obsession, I will attempt to clarify that third link for you with one word: PATHWAY.

You see, that does not mean amnesty. You and I have discussed amnesties (even though you ignored my entire post...), and that is not what the statement referred to. If there is a fair and legal PATHWAY to citizenship or residency, there is less of a necessity for those who break the law to do so. At least that is the thinking here.

For many Latino citizens and permanent residents in the US, they will have come from the brutal poverty that inspires so many illegals to come here and they will understand the desperate need to feed one's family and care for ones loved ones. They will also be aware that this country has far more opportunities than Mexico or Central America and they will understand what drives and motivates people to come here because it is what motivated them.

The numbers of people permitted to come here legally are woefully inadequate to the numbers of people who would like to come. I do not try to excuse illegal immigration but rather to put it into perspective for those of you whose high horses are so high that you forget that you are dealing with human lives here and that not everyone was born as lucky and with the same advantages as you. A tiny modicum of empathy for others less fortunate would not cost you too much I am certain.

You have painted a highly exaggerated doomsday scenario paid for by the Minute Men I am sure, but utterly and wholly distorting of the actual full picture, which so many people who think as you do refuse to see. This is why I do not believe this to be a matter of security for you and people like you. I do not even believe it is a matter of gay marriage for you. I think you just wanted a forum where you could rant about Hispanics and you couched it in the gay marriage cloak so as to appear more sympathetic. This goes back to something I have already addressed in a prior post, so I have no intention of addressing it yet again at this time. You know what I mean, that's all that matters.

As for your last thread, I have no idea what you are trying to say there, as the subjects of gay youth and HIV never entered into the discussion.

 

[Chalchalero]

Thats nice

Police killing puts focus on illegal immigrant crime


Phoenix Business Journal - by Mike Sunnucks The Business Journal

police officer by an illegal immigrant from Mexico has heightened debate over undocumented residents and crime.

Phoenix Police officer Nick Erlie was shot and killed by Erik Jovani Martinez, an illegal who previously was deported and had an arrest warrant. Martinez was shot and killed by police after taking a hostage. He had been arrested eight times.



Illegal immigrant gets 14 years for stabbing woman

He will have to serve 85 percent of the sentence before he is eligible for parole and could be deported


By Brian Cox | Special to the Tribune 12:44 AM CDT, June 17, 2008




An undocumented Mexican immigrant was sentenced Monday to 14 years in prison after he was found guilty in April of attempted murder and aggravated domestic battery for stabbing a woman during an argument at the Glen View Club in north suburban Golf, prosecutors said.


"Johnson was testifying at a hearing to determine if there is enough evidence against reputed 18th Street gang member Pedro Espinoza to try him on a
murder charge.

Espinoza's murder charge includes the special circumstance allegation that the defendant was "an active participant in a criminal street gang and
the murder was carried out to further the activities of the criminal street gang."

This I can back up. Would like posts to all the crimes committed by people who should not even be in the country? There are 10s of thousands. Does that mean ALL illegal immigrants committ crimes? No. But please do not make this out to be no big deal.

I do not deny that illegal aliens much the same as native born residents are going to have their share of the population which has missed more than a few Sunday school classes. I am even willing to concede that it is a larger number than it really ought to be, as far as I am concerned.

There is an interesting New York Times article which goes over some DOJ numbers which you may find interesting.

Immigrants and Prison
By DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: May 30, 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/b...61600&en=524c5eea29c6a551&ei=5070&oref=slogin

One interesting point they make is that many non-citizens are not illegal and that some are in prison solely on immigration charges and not for violent or even necessarily criminal offences. There is also the interesting fact of the INS and local jurisdictions setting people free (not deporting them, setting them free) without any disposition of their cases.

I think you can blame your own local municipalities for some of that craziness. However, I am sympathetic to the fact that border states are carrying the major part of the load of these people and that it may be a more sensitive subject for them than for me as they are paying most of the costs. I do not know whether you live in a border state, but if you do, then that would explain a great deal to me...

 

[Chalchalero]

Please go to post 34 to find the links. See I actually do post the links but it does involve people hitting that thing on the mouse called a BUTTON to see them.

I hope you are realising that you are talking to two different people. I suspected those first two two links in 34 were for Marley and not for me.

It is easy to confuse interlocutors when everyone seems to be attacking you at once. I know, I've been there...

 

[Chalchalero]

If I hated people I would have NO PROBLEM telling you at all. I do have a problem with people comming in a country I and my family has fought for and defended while they come in illegally demand citizenship, fly foreign flags (if someone has that much loyalty to the country they came from they should go back) refuse to assimilate, and defend breaking in.

I have a problem with black activists that claim blacks are the victims in prison. Hey I have a idea to those black,white, latino or whoever is in prison doing a sentence. STOP DOING THE CRIMES!!! I mean as another member here pointed out on gays being a choice doing crimes is a choice right?

You would be very surprised at the number of illegals who are wearing American uniforms in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan right now, while you are typing away at your keyboard in the comforts of - well - not Iraq or Afghanistan, I am sure.

The majority of illegals do not demand citizenship. They come to work and then most go home. There is a number who end up staying and for them citizenship would be a delightful boon, to be sure. But I do not believe they demand it. I believe they only wish there was an easier way to go about it, since it is a very difficult process. (I know what I am talking about here...)

I do not believe that you have a problem when you walk into your local pub and the Irish flag is flowing, do you? Do you tell your barkeep to go back to Ireland where he belongs? Yours would become a very dry town (for you at least) very quickly if you tried something like that, I am sure.

What about when Jews want to fly the Israeli flag? Do you rant and rave at them and aim the vitriol and opprobrium at them that you do with Hispanics? No, I thought not. It's only the Hispanic flags that get your panties in a bunch, isn't it? That's all right. I understand. Nothing to be ashamed about. Just let it all out.

I do not disagree with your second statement, only the manner in which you stated it. Your accusations are too generalising and they lack focus. You seem to be attempting to swat flies with a bazooka. You really have to be more responsible with the charges you make when you are referring to an entire race of people, or it simply takes away from whatever credibility you might have enjoyed otherwise.

Just a little friendly advice.

 

[Chalchalero]

^That's another thing that goes unmentioned during the usual immigrant bashing. The justice system and its relationship with immigrants is so fickled there might as well not be any policies because many immigrants who are in school, doing something with themselves get deported while drunk drivers get released on technicalities.

Crossing the border illegally is not a new phenomenon, yet there are no efficient, clear-cut policies about how criminal illegals should be handled.

I agree with you. But that is what the anti-immigration bigots do not wish to accept. There are two sides to every coin and the fact is that the ball has been dropped on this side of the Rio Grande when it comes to efficient border protection and consistency in applying and enforcing the existing laws. The populist polemicists out there want to get themselves attention by screaming and yelling about the big bad immigrants while it is their own country and states that are dropping the ball at least as much as there are people entering the country illegally. And as has already been demonstrated the American people are too lazy and bigoted to actually formulate a comprehensive bill to fix the problem. Why fix something when jingoistic chest thumping and racist pronouncements and fear mongering are so much more fun?

 

[oak999]

You would be very surprised at the number of illegals who are wearing American uniforms in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan right now, while you are typing away at your keyboard in the comforts of - well - not Iraq or Afghanistan, I am sure.

The majority of illegals do not demand citizenship. They come to work and then most go home. There is a number who end up staying and for them citizenship would be a delightful boon, to be sure. But I do not believe they demand it. I believe they only wish there was an easier way to go about it, since it is a very difficult process. (I know what I am talking about here...)

I do not believe that you have a problem when you walk into your local pub and the Irish flag is flowing, do you? Do you tell your barkeep to go back to Ireland where he belongs? Yours would become a very dry town (for you at least) very quickly if you tried something like that, I am sure.

What about when Jews want to fly the Israeli flag? Do you rant and rave at them and aim the vitriol and opprobrium at them that you do with Hispanics? No, I thought not. It's only the Hispanic flags that get your panties in a bunch, isn't it? That's all right. I understand. Nothing to be ashamed about. Just let it all out.

I do not disagree with your second statement, only the manner in which you stated it. Your accusations are too generalising and they lack focus. You seem to be attempting to swat flies with a bazooka. You really have to be more responsible with the charges you make when you are referring to an entire race of people, or it simply takes away from whatever credibility you might have enjoyed otherwise.

Just a little friendly advice.

Let me first start with this post as I have been away from the computer for a while.

1 the flag issue. When people fly foreign flags at a march and ralley when they say they want to be citizens you damned right I have a problem with that. Its called respect. The USA is NOT a boarding house its a country that was built by people who assimilated into it not seperated themselves in it.

If these people have so much pride in the country they came from YES they should go back to it.