Gay Marriage & Illegal Immigration

[oak999]

You make these pronouncements while at the same time defending the purposes of others flying their own flags. Yoiu are again being inconsistent.



Ergo, Germans, Irish, Jews, etc are allowed to fly their own flags, right?



Ergo. NO ONE should be able to fly their own flag...

Do you see the inconsistencies here?

If they are looking at their home countries as "their flag" then thats a problem-yes. The USA again is 1 country 1 flag.

Let me give a example. Is someone entitled to fly the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag in the USA? YES. Is that really the right thing to do though? No. See what you want is you want the country divided much like the libral ass views you share and I have seen on here. You have your Irish, you have your blacks, you have your mexicans instead of one united country.

When I think of my people I think of my country not my race or where my grandparents came from. Some others do not and its makes for a divided country. This is 1 country 1 flag.

 

[oak999]

^Call me crazy but I thought diversity was one of the beauties of this country. My high-school had just about every flag displayed in the lunchroom. This was to celebrate our diversity, not disrespect the mass of land we happen to live on. America itself is not such a great, perfect, faultless being that we should deem anyone "unworthy."

Literally, FEW TO NONE of us are true Americans. Most of our ancestors came from other countries, and its no disrespect at all to pay homeage to our history, its actually disrespectful to imply (with the one flag comment) that we ignore our history for the sake of honoring what country we were born in. If an American moved to Europe, what would be wrong with hanging their flag in their dorm room or apartment? The most you post, the more it seems like you're saying "forget the past, I was born here so this heritage is the only one that matters."

This country the USA protects you and gives you opportunity what is your "homeland" doing for you? I am a true American. Its sad that you think that way.

"we happen to live on" that s nice so you just happen to be here. Ever thought about leaving the USA? Maybe you would appreciate it more.

Ever hear of "living in the past"? If you are a US citizen ACT LIKE it.

Let me add another thing here. If this country goes to war and needs people you this other guy on here and me are all going to fight for the USA rather you like it or not. And you will die for it if need be as we all would have to. Country is one of those important things right below god if you believe.

 

[oak999]

Oh my God this keeps getting more and more twisted, and I truly fear a world where every American denounces their history and the HARDSHIPS of their ancestors for the sake of praising a mass of land. Your view of America is a false concept and although it isn't the worst country, it ain't the prettiest. My grandma still remembers black and white entrances, America has a LOOOONG way to go before its defendable as a great nation. Just because I don't suck America's dick doesn't mean I want to leave, but that doesn't discredit the problems with this country. Racism, sexism, homophobia, those are all rampant here. The judicial system is extremely biased and discriminatory, and our leadership and weak financial practices have sent many Americans spiraling into poverty. You see America as Superman, I see it as a work in progress, and allowing other people into the country wouldn't falter that progress one bit. Rather, its Americans who are stuck in their ways and ignore history who are the true inhibitors of progression.

So thats what you see the United States of America as? Thats nice a chunk of land nothing more. We have a obligation to see to the new people comming here are FIRST and foremost loyal to the USA. I am all for legal immigration at proper levels. We do not need 2 million people comming in here a year though. The test to become a US citizen along with background checks learning about the country is extensive. But its real simple. If you do not want to jump through the hoops to become a part of this great country---DO NOT COME!!

Doing all of those things makes for people who appreciate their citizenship and the USA.

By the way here is the oath that new LEGAL immigrants must say and agree to (notice the first sentence)


I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen ; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.
The Oath of Citizenship is not a federal law. Technically, any oath is legal, as long as it meets the "five principles" mandated by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1953. These principles are:

• allegiance to the United States Constitution,
• renunciation of allegiance to any foreign country to which the immigrant has had previous allegiances to
• defense of the Constitution against enemies "foreign and domestic"
• promise to serve in the United States Armed Forces when required by law (either combat or non-combat)
• promise to perform civilian duties of "national importance" when required by law

 

[oak999]

BTW Marly is a Legend your quotes from another post "Unplanned pregnancies, poverty and the subsequent lessened opportunities, absentee fathers, these all contribute to "making" criminals."

Poverty and lessened opportunities hmm I know how to fix that. Let let in millions of illegal immigrants to undercut in pay those that are trying to get ahead! Think it will work? It sure will help those not able to find work right?

 

[Chalchalero]

I can always tell when you are writing from a very emotional place because your English becomes worse than that of the illegal immigrants you hate so much.

I'm just saying...

I do not know to what "misinformation" you could be referring, but I am always pleased when you bring me a semblance of facts rather than chest thumping racist rhetoric.

So let us begin, shall we?

It was said after the Civil War that without that cheap labor the country would collapse.

Perhaps, I don't know. I was not there.

But I will say this much. I have never claimed that illegal immigration was necessary to the US economy. I have stated that the economy tends (out of pure laziness and greed) to rely upon it. But when told they can no longer do so, they will find another way and move on. American business people are very resourceful that way. They definitely lead the world in that respect.

The impact on the lower skilled workers in this country and middle class is unreal and yet you support illegal immigration.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115205920728097930.html?mod=Letters

I never said that I supported illegal immigration and I made that point apparent in an earlier post when I stated that while I do not excuse it, I only tried to explain it to the heartless and insensitive people who were unable to think beyond their own necessities and interests. If you felt that I was speaking to you...well...I mean really...what can I do about that?

I would like to quote something from the article you posted, if I may:

Perhaps they should ask the 15% of unemployed workers who have less than a high-school education how they feel about being such a small, trivial group.

And for the moderators who seem to believe that the same link can never be cited too many times: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115205920728097930.html?mod=Letters

Now, I have checked the statistice from the USD Bureau of Labour Statistics and was fortunate enough to als find a delighhtful Wikipedia article which cites all of the same information, so here goes:

There was an official measure of 7.6 million unemployed in the U.S. as of January 2008, a rate of 4.9%.

For the mods and of course your own personal edification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment

This figure either means that we had a roaring boom over a period of three years that then just disappeared, or, that your lovely congressman Rohrabacher was exaggerating slightly.

I'm just saying...

The heart of this argument asserts that ...

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c. You agree not to rearrange or modify the Content. You agree not to create abstracts from, scrape or display headlines from our content for use on another web site or service. You agree not to post any content from the Services to weblogs, newsgroups, mail lists or electronic bulletin boards, without our written consent.

From the same WSJ article cited above (if the mods want the same link, they can put it there themselves...)

This is the same doomsday stupidity that you have been trying to spread here and until I see some serious data to back it up, I will continue to refer to it as fear factor drivel.

Speaking of which, you were awfully silent about that craziness you were spreading about that bill which seemed to frighten you so much. I was so looking forward to your explanation as to how your "journalistic" source had screwed up so badly and how your lack of ability to read for yourself put you in such an interesting pickle with regards to your "credibility". I feel sort of deprived here.

Its funny how in LA Chicago and other cities High School graduation rates are some times near 50% but you are saying we do not have enough un skilled people in the USA. Most of thes unskilled people are in inner city areas.

I agree. But the problem is that these are people who come from poor areas with high rates of crime and little incentive to work the jobs that people who come from other parts of the world would kill or die to do. It is easier for the native borns to take welfare and/or rob or sell drugs as far as they are concerned.

But lets give citizenship so we can get MORE illegal immigrants in here right? And then it can be a constant circle of citizenship, illegal entry, no control of our borders and immigration.

More of that doomsday silliness, eh?

As stated in the video that you probably did not watch.

I watched 4 minutes and five seconds of it and I have to say that this man made Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" look like a double feature of "Iron Man" and "The Incredible Hulk" (Norton not Bana).

I have no idea where he got the majority of his data, and when he does cite sources it is only as a spring board for him to launch into other fear factor projections for which he has no proof. It was like watching you on YouTube, for Heaven's sake!

(The old you, not the new and improved you! )

There are 4.6 BILLION people on the planet in more poverty then the Mexicans comming in the USA. Should we take all these 4.6 Billion people? Please tell me.

A bit of an exaggeration, but I get your point. I never said that I was for unchecked immigration. The comment I made regarding no checks on previous immigrants was as a question of the motivations of so many anti immigration advocates today. I know this does not include you, as you have already stated several times that you are not anti-immigration.

Please stop putting two "m's" in the word "coming". I am not always able to concentrate on the point you are trying to make when you spell with sexual connotations...

So we can take 2 million people a year in the USA LEGALLY and it still we not work out. The 3rd world will add another 80 million people births over deaths. WE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO TAKE OTHER CITIZENS OF OTHER COUNTRIES. IF WE WISH TO STOP ALL IMMIGRATION TO THE USA WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT!!! But that is not what I am saying.

Quite right. The problem is that you cannot control the rates of immigration with the policy as it stands. How do you think this country would stop immigration entirely if it even attempted to try? I'd love to see that just for the hell of it...

We have people comming in the USA who are more loyal to the country they came from the USA. They take this country for granted. We can not take the worlds population that is fact all we can do is pick the best people. Illegal immigration is unchecked people.

You seem to think that leaving one's country is an easy thing to do. People do not leave because they hate their country and cannot wait to become a third class citizen in America. They leave because they have no other options in their own country. They can be excused for still loving where they came from.

You are from the US. You love the US. Nothing wrong with that, right?

I come from Argentina. I love Argentina. That will never change. I live part of the year in Geneva and Paris. I love those places as well. That will not change either. The provincial xenophobia of some Americans who believe in the Bush mantra of either with or against are so sorely behind the times and ignorant of the global world in which we presently live.

It is sad, because that attitude will eventually leave America in the provincial dustbin of world standing one day, and you arrogant bastards cannot even see it yet.

On to your remarks about immigraton no controls being put on the Germans and Poles. You have not read I can see.

I love when you do the whole "I'm so clever" thing. It's so cute...

The Acts and events which you cite took place over one hundred years after a continuous flow of unchecked immigration into this country. It is to that period which I referred.

 

[Chalchalero]

Thats really disrespectful. Men and women have died for this country. That flag is a symbol of it. I understand the USA is no big deal to you and another member on here. Why not try living in another? I am willing to bet you have not done military service for this country? Because if you did you would appreciate it. So these people are here for the money? America first is a way of thinking that most people have in this country because its OUR COUNTRY.

Why did you leave your country if you love it so much? Probably because its a shithole like most other countries but a few. The USA is the ONLY world power left. We need people who come here and do put it first. If they can t do that they should take their asses back where they came from.

Oh but wait they want all the USA can provide that their home countries can not. Thats called being a hypocrite.

Wow!

I think that I could almost feel the spittle shooting from your mouth as you raged away there.

I never said the USA was "no big deal" to me. Believe me, if I want to I can leave in an instant. I stay because this is where I have my business and life. But I leave every year for several months just to make certain that I can breathe some better air for a bit.

Your rant is specifically the crazed xenophobia to which I previously referred and why Americans are frequently the laughingstock of most sophisticated civilised drawing rooms throughout the world. No one understands why you people have such a complex that unless everyone believes you are simply the best, you just do not know what to do with yourselves. It is such a joke!

And, while it is none of your business, I will tell you that I came when I was a child because my father wanted me to. I can assure you that I was not pleased to do so at the time, but the country has grown on me and I have stayed. We are not piss poor, but actually have done quite well for ourselves for the last two or three hundred years, both in Argentina and Spain.

My father thought it would be good for me to escape the provincialism of our rural province and so he sent me here. Is that not the funniest and most ironic thing ever!

 

[Chalchalero]

If they are looking at their home countries as "their flag" then thats a problem-yes. The USA again is 1 country 1 flag.

Well tough crap, because people are not going to give up their love for where they came from simply because it upsets you.

Let me give a example. Is someone entitled to fly the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag in the USA? YES. Is that really the right thing to do though? No. See what you want is you want the country divided much like the libral ass views you share and I have seen on here. You have your Irish, you have your blacks, you have your mexicans instead of one united country.

This is besides the point. No one came from the country of "Nazi". There are many official buildings in the South that still fly the Confederate flag and consider this to be a perfectly acceptable demonstration of their patriotism.

Whether you like it or not, this is not a country where people become something they are not upon crossing the border. We ll come with our own cultures, languages and backgrounds. That is why when you walk through the streets of New York you can enjoy a pizza, an egg roll, a kielbasa, some sauerkraut, a taco, chicharrones, beef patties, oxtail soup, escargot, a lovely chablis, a riesling, a rioja, a Corona, a sangría, etc, etc, etc.

Ifr this country were really what you want it to be, I can assure you it would be very dull indeed. It is this country's diversity from whence derives its greatness.

When I think of my people I think of my country not my race or where my grandparents came from. Some others do not and its makes for a divided country. This is 1 country 1 flag.

It does not divide a country to admit that said country is made up of 250 million DIFFERENT people. It unites it and makes it more interesting for all who live there.

 

[Chalchalero]

Let me add another thing here. If this country goes to war and needs people you this other guy on here and me are all going to fight for the USA rather you like it or not. And you will die for it if need be as we all would have to. Country is one of those important things right below god if you believe.

You are quite right. I had to go to Kuwait in '91 and when I returned, I was told that I still owed Argentina my compulsory military time as well. So I have done my little bit for both my countries. You are not so forthcoming with regards to your own military history, by the way...

 

[Chalchalero]

So thats what you see the United States of America as? Thats nice a chunk of land nothing more. We have a obligation to see to the new people comming here are FIRST and foremost loyal to the USA. I am all for legal immigration at proper levels. We do not need 2 million people comming in here a year though. The test to become a US citizen along with background checks learning about the country is extensive. But its real simple. If you do not want to jump through the hoops to become a part of this great country---DO NOT COME!!

Doing all of those things makes for people who appreciate their citizenship and the USA.

By the way here is the oath that new LEGAL immigrants must say and agree to (notice the first sentence)


I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen ; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.
The Oath of Citizenship is not a federal law. Technically, any oath is legal, as long as it meets the "five principles" mandated by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1953. These principles are:

• allegiance to the United States Constitution,
• renunciation of allegiance to any foreign country to which the immigrant has had previous allegiances to
• defense of the Constitution against enemies "foreign and domestic"
• promise to serve in the United States Armed Forces when required by law (either combat or non-combat)
• promise to perform civilian duties of "national importance" when required by law

That oath was written before the global economy. I have dual citizenship in Argentina and the US and permanent residency in Switzerland. This is all perfectly legal and does not imply that I love either country any more or less. I know that alone kills you, as one is supposed to only love America, but...oh well...

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

I agree.

The pro-illegals don't seem to understand this; the key word is "illegal". If we don't respect immigration laws, why should we respect any of them?

You are absolutely, completely right about the race issue. Many from Mexico and Central America are convinced that it's a racial issue; nothing could be further from the truth. The race of the illegals is immaterial. There are 1000s of illegal Chinese in LA and SF, and I've heard that Europe is being overwhelmed by illegals from the Muslim countries; France is being besieged by illegals from Africa. It's all wrong.

Once again, I ask you--if it's OK to ignore immigration laws, isn't it OK to ignore any law?

I completely agree with you.

The problem I have with your (and the other poster's) assertions is that one tends to assume that simply because a person opposes the draconian system of immigration laws and the completely inconsistent and quixotic manner in which these laws are enforced, then they must be "pro illegal" as you put it so eloquently.

This is not the case.

I have already said and will say again that while I do not believe that breaking immigration laws (such as they are) is a good thing, but I do understand why people do it. That is called compassion and empathy, not endorsement.

 

[oak999]

Well tough crap, because people are not going to give up their love for where they came from simply because it upsets you.



This is besides the point. No one came from the country of "Nazi". There are many official buildings in the South that still fly the Confederate flag and consider this to be a perfectly acceptable demonstration of their patriotism.

Whether you like it or not, this is not a country where people become something they are not upon crossing the border. We ll come with our own cultures, languages and backgrounds. That is why when you walk through the streets of New York you can enjoy a pizza, an egg roll, a kielbasa, some sauerkraut, a taco, chicharrones, beef patties, oxtail soup, escargot, a lovely chablis, a riesling, a rioja, a Corona, a sangría, etc, etc, etc.

Ifr this country were really what you want it to be, I can assure you it would be very dull indeed. It is this country's diversity from whence derives its greatness.



It does not divide a country to admit that said country is made up of 250 million DIFFERENT people. It unites it and makes it more interesting for all who live there.

Well my reply to you "tough crap". We have shot down the immigraton bill many many times it will be stopped again because of the disrespect we the USA have seen for our country.

It will not be tolerated. I enjoy foods from other countries and yes I enjoy having different foods here in the USA. But as I have stated I and others have issues with people who fly foreign flags at a event to try to show these people should be on a way to citizenship.

No no one did come from the country of Nazi but with your views it would be OK for someone to fly it--and it would. Does that make it right? No. Does that make it right to fly another foreign flag in the USA? No I does not. This is ONE country.

 

[oak999]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

I completely agree with you.

The problem I have with your (and the other poster's) assertions is that one tends to assume that simply because a person opposes the draconian system of immigration laws and the completely inconsistent and quixotic manner in which these laws are enforced, then they must be "pro illegal" as you put it so eloquently.

This is not the case.

I have already said and will say again that while I do not believe that breaking immigration laws (such as they are) is a good thing, but I do understand why people do it. That is called compassion and empathy, not endorsement.

I have no compassion for those that show disrespect for my country. A country that others have died and fought for.

 

[oak999]

That oath was written before the global economy. I have dual citizenship in Argentina and the US and permanent residency in Switzerland. This is all perfectly legal and does not imply that I love either country any more or less. I know that alone kills you, as one is supposed to only love America, but...oh well...

Thats YOUR OPINION. This is the oath given to new LEGAL immigrants. Show me proof its outdated?

 

[oak999]

Please keep flying that foreign flag my friend. Raids and deportations are at all time highs. Many many immigration bills have been stopped by the people who broke the phone boards in washington when one of them went through.

Obama, bush, mccain it all will not matter without the congress and the people will pressure congress as we have done. I will remind you bush wanted immigration reform too.

We see the disrespect as seen in the pics. We see people who view citizenship as no big deal and the usa as no big deal like one member on here. This is a country i have served i have had family die for and i am willing to die for. We will not tolerate millions of people comming here who are loyal not to the usa but to other nations.

Illegal immigration laws are taking effect also around the country such as georgia, arizona, oklahoma etc.

Rather then become part of the usa you would rather hold on to your home country.

Here is a interesting and thoughtful page I found.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/the_balkanization_of_america.html#

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• Any reference to an external source should also include an explanation of how your quote relates to the topic under discussion. …For example; you should include your own personal criticism, illustration, clarification, parody, or summary of the work you are quoting.

 

[Chalchalero]

Well my reply to you "tough crap". We have shot down the immigraton bill many many times it will be stopped again because of the disrespect we the USA have seen for our country.

It will not be tolerated. I enjoy foods from other countries and yes I enjoy having different foods here in the USA. But as I have stated I and others have issues with people who fly foreign flags at a event to try to show these people should be on a way to citizenship.

No no one did come from the country of Nazi but with your views it would be OK for someone to fly it--and it would. Does that make it right? No. Does that make it right to fly another foreign flag in the USA? No I does not. This is ONE country.

Here you go again with the language dyslexia.

Whether you like it or not, there will be comprehensive immigration reform one day because everyone is not a flag waving chest thumping scared of foreigners freak like those who would like to see it prevented.

Flags are going to fly as well, whether you like it or not. We do not forget where we come from simply because you have never been out of Podunk, Nowhere, USA and resent everyone who does not live in your tiny little corner of the world. Deal with it.

What you seem to forget is that this is a FREE country where people can fly whatever flag they wish. It is not an affront to this country. It is not an affront to you personally. Learn to let go.

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

I have no compassion for those that show disrespect for my country. A country that others have died and fought for.

You are entitled to your narrow mindedness. It is yours to own and enjoy as you please.

 

[Chalchalero]

Thats YOUR OPINION. This is the oath given to new LEGAL immigrants. Show me proof its outdated?

I did not say it was outdated. I simply referred to the fact that with a global economy there are a great many more people both in this country and others who have dual citizenships. I carry three passports. My late partner carried four. This is the nature of today's world. Not everyone lives in the the little hole in the wall that Xenophobes Anonymous calls home.

 

[oak999]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Are you just digging for something to be proud about? Again, America isn't the word but it ain't the best. 50 years ago bathrooms were segregated and lynching parties were celebrated. We ignore the adversities gay couples face in favor of pleasing religious zealists. We house over 70% of the world's serial killers and domestic crimes are rampant. Pride in your country isn't a bad thing, but it often cases sense of supremecy and superiority. It leads to judgmentalism and people who feel that they alone should determine who's allowed and who isn't. The people who founded America as it is today were criminals, and had no tests to pass or requirements to uphold.

Thats not it at all. Who is with us and who is against us to fix these problems? Let me give a example and I can pull the link if you want it will take some time to find the article though.

Many illegal immgrants have left the USA as we are having some problems with the economy. Thats just fucking great isnt it? When the shit gets tough they just leave. They do not leave because they have broken the laws they leave because its harder to find work. What great future US citizens they are they not?

I am concerned about my fellow US citizens. Those that are in poverty. People who have 1 foot in 1 country and another in the country they came from. AS I HAVE SAID THAT IS NOT WHAT BUILT THIS COUNTRY. When the shit hits the fan I go back to where I came from. You know my reply to that? KEEP IN YOU SHITTY ASS COUNTRY AND STAY THERE!!

If someone is brown FINE if some is gay FINE if someone is white FINE WHO GIVES A SHIT! NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THAT! BUT WE ARE 1 COUNTRY HERE 1 FLAG!!

 

[oak999]

Here you go again with the language dyslexia.

Whether you like it or not, there will be comprehensive immigration reform one day because everyone is not a flag waving chest thumping scared of foreigners freak like those who would like to see it prevented.

Flags are going to fly as well, whether you like it or not. We do not forget where we come from simply because you have never been out of Podunk, Nowhere, USA and resent everyone who does not live in your tiny little corner of the world. Deal with it.

What you seem to forget is that this is a FREE country where people can fly whatever flag they wish. It is not an affront to this country. It is not an affront to you personally. Learn to let go.

So as I said with your remarks then you have no issue with someone flying the Nazi flag right?

Immigration reform will be done you are right. But there are going to be lots of people deported. Everytime I hear a raid has happened I feel great the whole day. Last year we deported 250 000 people we are underway to break that record. I feel great about that.

 

[oak999]

Here you go again with the language dyslexia.

Whether you like it or not, there will be comprehensive immigration reform one day because everyone is not a flag waving chest thumping scared of foreigners freak like those who would like to see it prevented.

Flags are going to fly as well, whether you like it or not. We do not forget where we come from simply because you have never been out of Podunk, Nowhere, USA and resent everyone who does not live in your tiny little corner of the world. Deal with it.

What you seem to forget is that this is a FREE country where people can fly whatever flag they wish. It is not an affront to this country. It is not an affront to you personally. Learn to let go.

BTW most us citizens are flag waving chest thumping people. We love our country. This is the USA not Germany not Mexico not Spain or any other country---its the USA red white and blue.