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On Topic Discussion Glee actor Mark Salling, 35, found dead

Get serious, mate. You asked us to name one of his victims, and They Are Children!!! How perverted can you get to want to know which little kid was molested so Salling could blow a load looking at him or her?

I find myself in the peculiar position of explaining Telstra's thoughts but I think the point he's trying to make is what the psychologist is trying to say in the video.

The evidence is that Salling had a pedophilic interest but there's no evidence that he was a child molester. In the words of the psychologist, child molesters should be handled by the criminal justice system; pedophiles should be in treatment to prevent them from becoming child molesters.

The point that I made earlier was that all the effort that was made in prosecuting Salling could have been directed toward finding and prosecuting the people who produced and participated in making the material that Salling possessed.

fabulouslyghetto said:
So this is how the other side handles their problems, sympathy and treatment are stressed over incarceration.
...and you just brought up something not related to Salling (which is off-topic) but is the other corollary- we prosecute and incarcerate lots of people without every treating them for their addictions which is why the reincarceration rates are also high for addicts.

We also know that some people are born with a hereditary predisposition toward addiction. And it's also something that if we studied it, we might be able to prevent that predisposition toward addiction from becoming actual addiction. Instead, we wait until they become criminals and then we send them into the criminal justice system to start the cycle.
 
Thankyou Kara,
some of you guys are as bad as the islamic extremists.
Cannot see the scientific points of view about issues.
 
Get serious, mate. You asked us to name one of his victims, and They Are Children!!! How perverted can you get to want to know which little kid was molested so Salling could blow a load looking at him or her?

Idiots cannot read or over interpret things.
Go back and read if i said anything like your fantasies in your head thinking about "blow load" and stuff.
Your fantasies is more disgusting actually.
 
Most people that have sexual desires that run contrary to societal norms find themselves lonely, isolated and afraid.
As is with all of us, they seek out others that share their feelings. The internet has made it possible for people who normally would keep their proclivities hidden to put on a mask of anonymity and express their true feelings to others of the same ilk.

When I started seeing a therapist last year I was warned that if I said anything that meant I could do harm to myself or others that it would be reported. My problem was depression and anger. I found myself being careful as to how I expressed myself so I wouldn't be taken away by the men in white coats.

Now, imagine a person with unwanted sexual desires towards children trying to find help being told on his first visit that if he expressed any thing threatening that he would be 'turned in'.

That's not quite how therapy works. It isn't 'express anything threatening'. I believe it's 'express the intent to do physical harm'. You can talk about emotions, thoughts and feelings till the cows come home so long as you're clear that you have absolutely no intention of actually doing anything. The therapist who explained it to you explained it badly as the point of therapy is to deal, not encourage obfuscation with the patient. You'd definitely have to shop around for a therapist tho, they all have their strengths and ...lack thereof.
 
Something to think about...

There isn't a known treatment because the topic is verboten and almost everything about it is illegal. As it is now, if someone were to seek treatment, any mention of sexual activity with minors or possession of underage content is reportable. And that usually results in being listed on the sexual offender registry for a lifetime.

We can't study it, much less treat it.

Could you clarify something for me? When you say 'sexual activity with minors is reportable', do you mean actual sexual activity or discussing the origins of thoughts and suchlike? I've always taken those first-meeting-explanations and signed wavers of understandin' to not be referring to the mental map, but instead to physical, concrete actions. Is that correct or is there wiggle room I was previously unawares of?
 
Could you clarify something for me? When you say 'sexual activity with minors is reportable', do you mean actual sexual activity or discussing the origins of thoughts and suchlike? I've always taken those first-meeting-explanations and signed wavers of understandin' to not be referring to the mental map, but instead to physical, concrete actions. Is that correct or is there wiggle room I was previously unawares of?
It's a good question.

I can answer this only for US laws which unfortunately vary between the 50 states and federal law.

First of all- something that everyone should be aware of: physician-patient privacy laws only pertain to physicians. If you tell a non-MD therapist, a nurse or anyone other than a physician, you have no guarantee of confidentiality beyond the minimal protections of HIPAA. HIPAA does not apply when there is the potential that a crime has been committed.
A HIPAA covered entity also may disclose PHI to law enforcement without the individual's signed HIPAA authorization in certain incidents, including: ...
To report PHI to a law enforcement official reasonably able to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to the health or safety of an individual or the public...
To report PHI to law enforcement when required by law to do so (such as reporting gunshots or stab wounds)...
To respond to a request for PHI about an adult victim of a crime when the victim agrees (or in limited circumstances if the individual is unable to agree). Child abuse or neglect may be reported, without a parent’s agreement, to any law enforcement official authorized by law to receive such reports.

For therapists, there's a lot of variability but in general, if a therapist is given information that a crime is committed, they may be required to report that crime to authorities. There are broad categories that are usually reportable. The categories include child exploitation.

The problem is that the term "child exploitation" varies between states. Some states do include possession of child pornography to be "child exploitation". In some extreme interpretations, viewing child pornography is considered reportable child exploitation.

To give you an example of one of the more comprehensive laws- California's Child Abuse Reporting Law says that all health practitioners- including physicians- are required to report any conduct that may be categorized as 1) Physical abuse, 2) Sexual abuse, 3) Child exploitation, child pornography and child prostitution, 4) Severe or general neglect, 5) Extreme corporal punishment resulting in injury, 6) Willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment, 7) Abuse or neglect in out-of-home care. If ANY of these is suspected, the health practitioner must call the State immediately.

Given these broad categories, it is very difficult to get treatment for pedophilic impulses because any mention of any behavior that could fall into these categories is reportable to the State of California. In practice, because of the risk of liability, when there is doubt the health practitioner is generally going to call the State.
 
Yes, but all the behavior in the categories rely on action? Otherwise they involve no children; if they involved no children it's assumed no arrests and no jail. (disregarding entirely issues of 'cutesy photos of New Baby's First Everything' & 'Caught Junior streakin' on camera at the BBQ, what a riot". That's its own issue) I can't think how "I have a fetish/or whatever one wants to call it" is indicative of an action. Even were it considered to be, it wouldn't be difficult to quietly set up an electronic investigation and a kid's assessment. If you're going the therapy route it'd be a bit dim to go it alone, I'd think family would be available. I mean, I certainly haven't noticed a lack of support for actual rapists so I'm not seeing where the spectre of possibility is somehow worse than the disease.



-Ah. I have just taken a quarter second to contemplate and lo, my last sentence explains everything. Humans are very, very good at pretending a shadow is worse than the thing itself. The intangible gets hoisted. It would explain a few things. A species of Ostriches. I almost want to know what I did in a past life to deserve this.
 
Can't say I'm keen on people leaning toward the 'reasonable' conception of "Of course they won't get therapy if they have to be cleared by an investigation." Admittedly said client would have to be pretty damned sure of themself but you have to be pretty damned sure of yourself to get therapy for extremely personal issues anyway so I've doubts about that being too much of a barrier.

my entire immediate family were investigated many many years ago due to sti's regarding 3 of my sisters. I know a few people on my mother's side of the family found out, and I also know neither my father or his third wife or any of us told 'em but I certainly had a few questions to field from the peanut gallery. My point is that a family investigation isn't there to buttress anyone's self esteem and, for all of that, it was still a quiet one. I can't think that anyone outside the immediate family has ever commented on it in a casual conversation. If that's the excuse someone is using to avoid therapy they believe they need (that the investigation will look bad, no matter that they've not actually done anything untoward) it's a piddly bit of very dangerous reasoning they're using. Self serving reasoning.
 
Can't say I'm keen on people leaning toward the 'reasonable' conception of "Of course they won't get therapy if they have to be cleared by an investigation." Admittedly said client would have to be pretty damned sure of themself but you have to be pretty damned sure of yourself to get therapy for extremely personal issues anyway so I've doubts about that being too much of a barrier.

I mean, there's kink friendly therapists for a start. If anyone would know about drawing an appropriate line between fantasy and reality and ya wanted to take the endeavor seriously, aim for one of those people.
 
I should read more JUB hot topics, I did not know he was dead. I never though him an evil scumbag, just a deeply troubled person. Perhaps it is best that he "rests in peace" , There was no longer a future for him in this dimension. Bottom line. Please do not possess child pornography, it ruins your life and the countless lives of children so exploited.
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

There's no doubt that he had a problem. His admission of possession of over 50,000 images and 2 videos of prepubescent minors is damning. There was never any evidence that he was the abuser or that he took the images. He was a convicted sexual offender, his life and career was ruined and he hanged himself in the end.

Meanwhile, those who actually did the abuse and took the pictures are probably scot-free and quite possibly still doing it. Perhaps the anger would be better directed toward them.

There's plenty of anger to go around. Of all the criminals in the world who deserve sympathy, child-porn viewers are near the bottom of the list-- even the hot famous ones. :rolleyes:

And we can prance around technicalities that he was never caught abusing a child per se but I betcha $1,000 nobody's [strike]gonna rush[/strike] would have rushed to hire him to babysit their young siblings/niece/nephew/et cetera.

Rot In Purgatory Mr Salling
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

There's plenty of anger to go around. Of all the criminals in the world who deserve sympathy, child-porn viewers are near the bottom of the list-- even the hot famous ones. :rolleyes:

And we can prance around technicalities that he was never caught abusing a child per se but I betcha $1,000 nobody's [strike]gonna rush[/strike] would have rushed to hire him to babysit their young siblings/niece/nephew/et cetera.

Rot In Purgatory Mr Salling

I don't understand why they don't stick with consensual kink, anime or literature. It isn't as if everyone else doesn't have at least as strong a sex drive that they have to deal with. What constitutes that drive is immaterial (outside the bounds of consent, obviously).

If you're watching child porn, well, a kid was certainly harmed in the making of it. unlike with the other three examples.
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

I don't understand why they don't stick with consensual kink, anime or literature. It isn't as if everyone else doesn't have at least as strong a sex drive that they have to deal with. What constitutes that drive is immaterial (outside the bounds of consent, obviously).

If you're watching child porn, well, a kid was certainly harmed in the making of it. unlike with the other three examples.

Part of what gets them off is the power and abuse, they specifically want a child that has been preyed upon so anime and literature ain't gonna cut it. I won't be on board with this "Let's try to be understanding and offer rehabilitation vs criminalization" until that is extended to all criminals, least of all those guilty of victimless crimes and lesser offenses than this.
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

I don't understand why they don't stick with consensual kink, anime or literature. It isn't as if everyone else doesn't have at least as strong a sex drive that they have to deal with. What constitutes that drive is immaterial (outside the bounds of consent, obviously).

If you're watching child porn, well, a kid was certainly harmed in the making of it. unlike with the other three examples.

Or possibly that's 'inside the bounds of consent'. Either way, since children don't have the mental faculties to consent to such things I'd thing viewing kiddie porn counts as harm to the child. Someone was harmed in the creation of it and it wouldn't be made if people refused to watch.
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

Part of what gets them off is the power and abuse, they specifically want a child that has been preyed upon so anime and literature ain't gonna cut it. I won't be on board with this "Let's try to be understanding and offer rehabilitation vs criminalization" until that is extended to all criminals, least of all those guilty of victimless crimes and lesser offenses than this.

Ah, I don't believe in rehabilitation as it pertains to sexuality. That's purely a Management endeavor. While rehabilitation in behavior may be possible for people who've already crossed that glaring, neon-white line I'd still be voting for mandatory restriction along their personal sexual demographic.

Prevention seems more the thing, but to do that you have to not be inclined to talk yourself into things you think you can 'get away with'. You have to actually take into account other people instead of thinking of yourself first. You have to look baldly at how your attractions play out and search out strategies for avoiding the ethically reprehensible behavior that involves actual kids. None of that requires a therapist, per se.

It does require that you not entertain some of the previous arguments I've seen on jub, one real popular example being "But what if this kid has the ability to consent? There's bound to be one! Numbers don't lie!"

If they have the mental capacity to consent they would not, because they're well aware of what encouraging the behavior does for every other kid.
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

Someone was harmed in the creation of it and it wouldn't be made if people refused to watch.

That ain't gonna happen, my friend. And, as with any other 'deviation', it cannot be cured. It cannot be treated. I mentioned somewhere above that even chemical castration doesn't work. The desire remains until death.
 
It's not as bleak as is being told. These people could always go to Pakistan. It's not like child rape is a global taboo.
 
Part of what gets them off is the power and abuse...
Not according to current theories.

In fact, one of the theories is exactly the opposite- emotional congruence. There are a group of pedophiles who relate to children emotionally as if they are also children. This is the opposite of incest perpetrators who tend to delude themselves that the child is more mature than they actually are.

Go back and watch the video that Telstra posted. It explains that research is showing more and more than there's evidence that pedophiles have brains that function differently and that difference is apparent very early in development.
 
Re: Mark Salling dead

That ain't gonna happen, my friend. And, as with any other 'deviation', it cannot be cured. It cannot be treated. I mentioned somewhere above that even chemical castration doesn't work. The desire remains until death.

By management I don't mean treated/cured. I already explained I don't believe in rehabilitation of sexual desire. I don't care about desire itself so much as I care about the ethical conduct of that desire. Everybody's desire is managed. Well, 'crept for rapists, but even some of them claim to have standards.
 
Not according to current theories.

In fact, one of the theories is exactly the opposite- emotional congruence. There are a group of pedophiles who relate to children emotionally as if they are also children. This is the opposite of incest perpetrators who tend to delude themselves that the child is more mature than they actually are.

Go back and watch the video that Telstra posted. It explains that research is showing more and more than there's evidence that pedophiles have brains that function differently and that difference is apparent very early in development.

I have little to no interest in understanding the inner mullings of predators [for clarity's sake I'm lumping viewers and creators of child porn altogether], so thanks but no thanks. They're monsters. Lock em up. Chemically castrate em. Let em hang themselves. Problem solved from where I'm sitting. This is America, prison is how we deal with criminals, not giving them ink blot tests and studying their brain waves.
 
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