Global Warmoing spinoff: what to say to a Creationist

[Stardreamer]

Eloquent? Perhaps. But neither definitive nor logical.

For instance, what is to stop me from asking "What caused the cause of the Big Bang?" You can't contend the question is irrelevant. If things have causes, they have causes. If not all things have causes, then you can speculate that uncaused thing to be "god" and I can speculate it to be "the universe."

Not irrelevant but most likely unanswerable even if God does exist. We haven't even obtained a definitive answer to the creator question much less what may lie beyond that creator. The question also assumes that causality exists outside this universe but causality is a function of time. Yet the information and speculation on this theoretical existence outside the universe where God would have originated suggests time as we know it does not function there, thus causality is an iffy factor.

In any event it is illogical. The "watchmaker" god is a way of saying he isn't there at all.

No it is simply assumes we are in an isolated system as you describe below where God does not need to intervene because all the factors for his purpose were already set in place when the universe was crafted. He may have left and pays us no attention or he may simply be waiting for the results. The Deist or 'absentee landlord' theory says that he has intervened in the system but only extremely rarely and most likely near the beginning for fine tuning. Either way it would be very difficult at our current understanding of the universe to detect him.

In scientific terms, that's a way of saying we're in an isolated system. But an isolated system is just that: a universe without any divine contact or intervention or attention. No miracles or messages. There could be a reality outside the universe - an extra-universal reality - but so what? If we are truly an isolated system, with anything else being beyond measurement or experience, then the nature of that reality is only bounded by our imaginations, and literally only as substantive as our imaginations. If we are not isolated, then by definition that whole extra-universal system is part of our very measurable reality and isn't extra-universal at all. So far no evidence of that.

You are just restating in a different manner what I am saying above. Are we in a closed system or an open but isolated system? If the later how to measure it? Current theories allow for the possibility but provide no insight on how to get there.

There is also the omni-potent, omni-presence, and omni-knowledgable issues. IMO God is not all these things and the Bible does not say he is but most Judeo-Christian faiths embrace the idea. If he is all those things then quite literally he can erase any sign of his existence at will or prevent anyone from noticing such signs. If he truly testing us in a manner that requires faith and thus wants no proof of his existence then there is nothing we can do for science would be useless to fight against that unless somebody got really, really lucky. But then your really getting into what we call supernatural and magic (or as us sci-fi fans put it technology beyond our comprehension) and is as useful as smoke for argument since its unprovable.

 

[CowboyBob]

What an arrogant response. So...your position is, "Fuck the future generations?"

What do you expect from people like this anyway? They only think about themselves and money. People like this aren't used to sacrifice, and are lazy and selfish. It's hard to deal with someone like you responded to when they think like that...... "I've got mine and fuck everyone else."