GM temporarily halts production of Volt

[jackoroe]

Yeah, the dolt is the partisan hack who would link this to Obama.

Sorry, the link between the production and marketing of the Volt and the government running GM is crystal clear. Nobody said the government designed or created the concept.

http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/the-chevy-volt-the-car-we-had-to-build/

In the end, the free market not Obama, will decide the fate of this moribund turd. They can subsidize it's production with tax dollars or order them for government use and pay for them with tax dollars. People making economic decisions, comparing products and plunking down their hard earned dollars are not buying this clunker.

"It's the car America had to build." No, it the car Obama wanted built. Another case of crony capitalism.

 

[rareboy]

There's so much misinformation in this thread.

First, the Volt is nothing like the Prius. At all. The Prius is mainly a gasoline-powered vehicle that is supported by an electric motor and battery pack. The Volt is a battery-powered vehicle that uses electric motors as its main source of drive power, and the gasoline engine is used almost entirely as a generator to replenish the battery pack. The concepts are completely different.

Second of all, this is a first generation vehicle of its type, with a battery pack of a size and type that is unheard of in automotive applications. Its expensive because of that. The most expensive single component in the vehicle is the T-shaped battery pack that runs down the spine of the car. (I've read that its somewhere around $20k just for the pack.) Its LiOn instead of the NiMH that Toyota and others use, and its extremely power dense for its size. Being the first ends up costing a lot of money, and that's why the Volt is so expensive. Or to put it another way, GM saw the market moving to LiOn batteries in the future, so rather than wait for the market to catch up and produce suitable packs, they designed them themselves.

Last of all, the development of the Volt will make batteries in future eREV electric vehicles and hybrids much more cost effective, and longer lasting. LiOn batteries are much, much safer and less toxic than NiMH batteries, and they have the capability to hold more juice in smaller spaces. You also have to understand that rolled into the Volt's price are all of those development costs, which other models will not have to bear.

Oh, and anyone that thinks this project was a result of government intervention in GM is a fucking idiot. It started development in 2006 and was approved for production before GM went bankrupt or took any funds from the government. (production was approved in September 2008, and they did not ask for any funds until November)

Well put.

And the most interesting thing is that the immediate reaction is to politicize this whole thing.

It is very possible that the VOLT and some other versions may not be the perfect answer. Yet. What is telling though, is that Americans no longer have any tolerance for trying to innovate. For moving technology forward.

Instead, the kneejerk response is to scream 'Failure' and blame politicians....while returning to the smug safety of old technology.

I suspect that at the end of the day, it may be Tata or one of the other Asian or European automobile makers who finally gets the technology right and leaves North Americans grumbling because it wasn't us who did it.

 

[Stardreamer]

Well put.

And the most interesting thing is that the immediate reaction is to politicize this whole thing.

It is very possible that the VOLT and some other versions may not be the perfect answer. Yet. What is telling though, is that Americans no longer have any tolerance for trying to innovate. For moving technology forward.

Instead, the kneejerk response is to scream 'Failure' and blame politicians....while returning to the smug safety of old technology.

I suspect that at the end of the day, it may be Tata or one of the other Asian or European automobile makers who finally gets the technology right and leaves North Americans grumbling because it wasn't us who did it.

Nonsense, There is no fear of innovation in the market. Hybrids, the Tesla cars were all embraced by the market. Especially when manufacturers took the effort to produce a quality competitive product. The problem with the Volt it is not a good product that can compete in the current market.

That is exacerbated by it being made by GM, which due to the politics of the auto bailout and the Administration's green agenda (which promoted the Volt for both reasons) makes it a prime target politically.

 

[rareboy]

Nonsense, There is no fear of innovation in the market. Hybrids, the Tesla cars were all embraced by the market. Especially when manufacturers took the effort to produce a quality competitive product. The problem with the Volt it is not a good product that can compete in the current market.

That is exacerbated by it being made by GM, which due to the politics of the auto bailout and the Administration's green agenda (which promoted the Volt for both reasons) makes it a prime target politically.

Oh yeah.

Everyone in my neighbourhood is embracing their Tesla car. We're all driving one.

At only $85,000 US base price they are crowding the highways.

Gee. Why didn't GM just do that? Just crank up the price from 41k to 100k and watch the orders come rolling in.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

 

[Kulindahr]

The trouble is that what the market economy dictates is what's causing the problem!

Except that no market economy is dictating such things. We have corporatism -- and with respect to automobiles have had for a very long time -- and in corporatism the corporations work to tell the market what to do instead of responding to market forces.

What market forces do is pass along the information about what consumers want -- and that's all it does. Any departure from that is a manipulation of the market. That the manipulation may come from a giant corporation makes it no different than if it comes from government.

 

[Kulindahr]

Sorry, the link between the production and marketing of the Volt and the government running GM is crystal clear. Nobody said the government designed or created the concept.

Except you said:

The Volt is what happens when government and not the markets dictate what will be produced.

That implies the government had it designed, because no one designs a car without intent to produce.

In the end, the free market not Obama, will decide the fate of this moribund turd. They can subsidize it's production with tax dollars or order them for government use and pay for them with tax dollars. People making economic decisions, comparing products and plunking down their hard earned dollars are not buying this clunker.

"It's the car America had to build." No, it the car Obama wanted built. Another case of crony capitalism.

What makes it a "clunker", other than the fact that you don't like green technology?

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh yeah.

Everyone in my neighbourhood is embracing their Tesla car. We're all driving one.

At only $85,000 US base price they are crowding the highways.

Gee. Why didn't GM just do that? Just crank up the price from 41k to 100k and watch the orders come rolling in.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

To decide if they're being embraced by the market, the thing to do is look at the sales of cars in the same price range, not at all price ranges. By that comparison, they've done fairly well -- I'm not sure I'd quite call it "embraced", but it was far from "rejected".

 

[JayHawk]

What makes it a "clunker", other than the fact that you don't like green technology?

What makes it a clunker is thinking you would sell 45k unit and only selling 9K. What makes it a junker is the ability for the battery to catch fire after impact so that every accident is a totaled car.

To decide if they're being embraced by the market, the thing to do is look at the sales of cars in the same price range, not at all price ranges. By that comparison, they've done fairly well -- I'm not sure I'd quite call it "embraced", but it was far from "rejected".

Don't try to reason. He is only happy if he has something to bitch about in America. Jealousy is a bitch but is clear in every post.

Don't let the haters fool you. The most innovative country on earth is still to the south of canuckistan. We will remain so in the near and dear future. Have no fear. The VOLT may have failed but the lessons learned and the research was done here. The current well performing hybrids are merely using available technology to sell cars. They are not innovating shit. How many rockets failed to reach? How many submarines are at the bottom of the ocean from test alone? Society changing innovation takes failures.

 

[Kulindahr]

What makes it a clunker is thinking you would sell 45k unit and only selling 9K. What makes it a junker is the ability for the battery to catch fire after impact so that every accident is a totaled car.

So we're spelling "clunker" u n f o u n d e d o p t i m i s m?

 

[JayHawk]

No a clunker is how he refers to a non selling car is what i assume but you can ask him and see if he responds.

It does not have the amenities or the range or the style to be sold for 40 thousand dollars. SImply that makes it a clunker. The fires are a recent problem that typically only come about after it has been wrecked. So every car wrecked HAS to be declared a total loss. That you would not call a clunker?

 

[jackoroe]

What makes it a "clunker", other than the fact that you don't like green technology?

It's a clunker because no one wants to buy it. And it isn't green. It didn't even make the list of top 10 greenest cars. So, it even fails at it's primary objective.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/aut...nd-prius-stomp-the-volt-on-greenest-car-list/

When I made my own diesel fuel for my Benz, that was green. Charging an electric car with electric generated by fossil fuel isn't green.

 

[CowboyBob]

The Volt isn't a "clunker". It's not a bad car at all. Too bad it's been politicized by both sides of the spectrum tho.

It's too expensive. New technology is always expensive. When I bought my first VCR in 1980 it was $900. That was 1980 dollars too. Being a pioneer is expensive.

And the battery technology just isn't there yet. In 10 years it should be there with the new battery types coming out.

 

[CowboyBob]

The worst thing is that there's big money to be made in green technology. All the Republicans care about in life is money, isn't it?

Which makes their stance on green technology all the more bewildering to me.

You hit the nail here Johann. With republicans, it's all about money and power. That's all that matters.

Remember the Golden Rule: He Who Has the Gold Makes the Rules!

 

[maxpowr9]

When I made my own diesel fuel for my Benz, that was green. Charging an electric car with electric generated by fossil fuel isn't green.

Funny I made a very similar post above and you couldn't even say "I agree". Again, like a broken record, I will never understand Americans subversion to diesel-powered cars.

^ Pray tell what type of energy you use to charge said battery. My guess is the awesome, smog-producing power of coal which is about as harmful to environment as gasoline. This is why it is really hard to take anyone that drives a hybrid seriously when they are all about "protecting the environment".

I will say, I do agree with Johann on the "German engineering" aspect: the quality isn't the same in Germany as their cars are made in America. I had a bimmer for 2 years and after 5k in electric repairs, I had to ditch the car. My BF had a Jetta for a while and dealt with the same headaches and ditched that for an Xterra. Course I love my Camry now.

 

[JayHawk]

At least if you bought a Volt for $40k, you'd have the satisfaction that you were doing the right thing.

sorry JB but most of our electrical energy is derived from sources that are dirtier to the environment than burning relatively clean gasoline.

This one is a bit of an eye chart BUT take a look at the top left. The first graph only divides all energy by how it is made. If you look at the second one you see COAL derives over 50% of our electrical energy that would power these vehicles. I think last I saw it was in the 70's but I cant find that DOE chart...

So by sort of doing the right thing or thinking they are doing the right thing volt owners are really contributing to worse gas emissions.

Perhaps that is another reason it has failed. It solves nothing.

 

[jackoroe]

I had a Benz once, for five years in fact. (It was leased) I hated it.

It was quite sluggish on the freeway, it was in the shop all the time, and I was embarrassed to be seen in it. I always found myself trying to explain away my presence in it.

I was happy to return it, and I tell ya, I am bewildered by the fuss over it. Will people really pay $50k for a car that doesn't even run that well, for the purposes of self-aggrandizement?

At least if you bought a Volt for $40k, you'd have the satisfaction that you were doing the right thing.

I think that's where we differ. You seem to have need to own a car predicated on what others think. I buy cars because they're what I want. If other folks don't like them, that's their issue.

I, like CowboyBob, owned an early VCR. I felt like an idiot for not waiting a couple of years to where they were $39. I was at least smart enough not to rush into owning a Blue Ray player. Being a pioneer means spending more to be the first one on your block. No thanks!

Electric cars are nothing new. The problem of range and charging time is still the same. Hopefully, the technology to manufacture batteries gets better and we actually get an electric car that is useable. The Volt simply doesn't make sense on many levels.

 

[Stardreamer]

Oh yeah.

Everyone in my neighbourhood is embracing their Tesla car. We're all driving one.

At only $85,000 US base price they are crowding the highways.

Gee. Why didn't GM just do that? Just crank up the price from 41k to 100k and watch the orders come rolling in.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

If I had 85,000 to spend I'd buy a Tesla Sportster, I wouldn't waste my time on a Volt. That is the difference.

 

[swerve]

WOW...

I'm surprised to read this -- ESPECIALLY since Bob Lutz was so involved in the process...

Are they going to RECALL all of the ones they've sold and send them to Arizona to be CRUSHED???

Like they did with the G2???

I still think that BIG OIL is behind the demise of the G2...

NOT GOOD NEWS...

HOPEFULLY -- Nissan's BIG GAMBLE will PAY OFF for THEM...

I would LOVE to see an ELECTRIC CAR future...

 

[chance1]

It's a clunker because the faux SUBSIDIZED price still far exceeded reasonability

Pretty simple

 

[Just_Believe18]

Electric and hybrid cars will happen. It's important to remain optimistic, but that's where the automobile industry must go.