Good and Evil Span Both Belief and Non-Belief.

[Kulindahr]

I've always been enchanted by this quote, appropriate here:

There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth: not going all the way, and not starting. - Buddha

That does kind of sum things up.

 

[Spensed]

I've always been enchanted by this quote, appropriate here:

There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth: not going all the way, and not starting. - Buddha

One can make many other mistakes on the road to truth, e.g. taking a wrong road, mistaking one's own subjective wishful thinking for objective truth or believing in the truth of clever sounding sayings, without thinking enough about them.

 

[ludolfo]

in reality there is no such thing as absolute 'objectivity' and absolute 'subjectivity'. Those two terms have been conceptually separated and termed by the human mind, and from there the conceptual operation is assumed to mean an absolute objective and absolute subjective. In reality however they form a cyclic dynamic, like any dyanmin that the dividing mind has presumed that its dualistic thinking is really real, like light and dark--assuming you can have only light. And of course 'light' has come to be associated WITH such aspects as logic, rationality, consciousness which in patriarchal thinking are all assumed to be masculine rather than feminine, the latter being the category for darkness, 'matter'. nature, the 'underworld', 'the unconscious', the emotions, etc

So to assume that eg science is wholly objective is wrong because there's all other sht going on. Philosophical premises, political influences, etc etc. In other words there lies great danger the assumption that one is being totally objective = I am superior to you who is subjective

But same is so for the thinker who comes from opposite end. Who gives faith to a 'God' with out any critical thinking what it is all about but is willing to sacrifice sexuality, and even life in wars 'fighting on God's side' against those with 'Satan'. All that is subjective

We can understand if visionary experience is authentic if we keep this in mind rather than from an 'objective' perspective claiming ALL visionary experience is wrong. OR from a 'subjective' perspective believing all objective critique is wrong--like the questioning of the Christian (etc) belief system for example

 

[Spensed]

^ To the extent that one's experience of the objective world is, to a lesser or greater extent, subjective, you're right.

However, for most folk, it's a reasonable premise that there is an objective reality out there that is independent of any individual perception. If one happens to be in the way, the bus will hit one no matter what one's subjective beliefs about it are. One's visionary experiences about the bus may have some objective reality as their own subjective experiences. They need not have anything to do with the objective reality of the bus.

The Christian belief system may, or may not, have some validity and it may, or may not, go the way of the belief system focused on the ancient Greek Gods.

 

[kallipolis]

When I apprehend faith in the divine mystery, objectively I have no faith.

Walking by faith, and not by sight...entails accepting that reason, is never objectified.

Objective truth has its place, there being no truth to the thought, that cannot be reasoned.

Subjective truth is the awareness that within ones understandings there is a timeless reality, of itself being the creating dimension of that which is oneself being human.

The intuitive self is never objectified, there being no reason, other than the result that justified ones faith, following ones inwardly sourced inspiration.

How we believe matters much more than what we believe, for truth is what is perceived through the daily experience of living.

I am always becoming who, and what I am.

 

[Spensed]

...for truth is what is perceived through the daily experience of living.

One's perception of truth, and who and what one is, is subjective and may, or may not, be wrong or ill-founded.

"Grasp that and you have the very root of the matter."

 

[kallipolis]

One's perception of truth, and who and what one is, is subjective and may, or may not, be wrong or ill-founded.

"Grasp that and you have the very root of the matter."

...and ones perceptions are all that matters, when ones experiences are the catalyst of ones decisions to live life, as one pleases.

Otherwise, each of us becomes the slave of another's perceptions.

You are welcome to grasp who, and what satisfies your perception of beauty.....

It is often written that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but it can also be said that the most liberating realisation of beauty is when understanding that I am the beholder. This empowers me to discover beauty in places where others have not dared to look.

 

[TX-Beau]

...and ones perceptions are all that matters, when ones experiences are the catalyst of ones decisions to live life, as one pleases.

Otherwise, each of us becomes the slave of another's perceptions.

You are welcome to grasp who, and what satisfies your perception of beauty.....

It is often written that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but it can also be said that the most liberating realisation of beauty is when understanding that I am the beholder. This empowers me to discover beauty in places where others have not dared to look.

This is just a verbose way to say that everyone has their own perspective. It does not address that one's perspective may be in error. BECAUSE there are OBJECTIVE realities that you can't "perspective" away, like getting shot in the head. No matter how you feel about that, you are just as dead.

This bites the religious right in the ass when they start telling us their god is an OBJECTIVE, FACTUAL God, which of course, they can't back up.

 

[kallipolis]

This is just a verbose way to say that everyone has their own perspective. It does not address that one's perspective may be in error. BECAUSE there are OBJECTIVE realities that you can't "perspective" away, like getting shot in the head. No matter how you feel about that, you are just as dead.

This bites the religious right in the ass when they start telling us their god is an OBJECTIVE, FACTUAL God, which of course, they can't back up.

No one here would deny that there are objective realities.

Perspective is how each of us responds to the stimuli of our daily life.

Ones perspective recognises the individual nature of each human person.

Two persons can experience the same reality, and draw different, and differing perspectives of what they have experienced.

Were you, and Miz....to follow a Trump campaign speech...I am certain that you, and Miz...would draw different, and differing conclusions.....despite listening to the same speech.

 

[TX-Beau]

No one here would deny that there are objective realities.

Perspective is how each of us responds to the stimuli of our daily life.

Ones perspective recognises the individual nature of each human person.

Two persons can experience the same reality, and draw different, and differing perspectives of what they have experienced.

Were you, and Miz....to follow a Trump campaign speech...I am certain that you, and Miz...would draw different, and differing conclusions.....despite listening to the same speech.

Of course, I completely agree with everything you just posted, unfortunately there comes a time when some people attempt to pretend that their perspective is objective truth for all of us, and then try to burn us at the stake.

 

[ludolfo]

Of course, I completely agree with everything you just posted, unfortunately there comes a time when some people attempt to pretend that their perspective is objective truth for all of us, and then try to burn us at the stake.

Exactly. They will not tolerate any questioning of their belief which THEY believe is objective! many Christians need to believe there really was a son of 'God' named Jesus who really did live and get crucified, and died and rose up physically, objectively. They will not stand the questioning of all that and calling it mythology. They demand it is objective history, and not allegorical, metaphorical for an experience say

But this is why this is so hard to understand for many, this 'subjective' 'objective' stuff. Those ARE words we name for experience or from experience. To say 'they' cannot be apart if said wrongly or understood wrongly STILL makes out there are two things, as though 'they' are not a dynamic cyclic process that is whole
This means that eg visionary experience is BOTH objective and subjective as is a scientific experiment BOTh subjective and objective, because you can never have one without the other

 

[kallipolis]

Exactly. They will not tolerate any questioning of their belief which THEY believe is objective! many Christians need to believe there really was a son of 'God' named Jesus who really did live and get crucified, and died and rose up physically, objectively. They will not stand the questioning of all that and calling it mythology. They demand it is objective history, and not allegorical, metaphorical for an experience say

There's an example of your perspective, masquerading as objective truth....

....I appreciate that your experiences, are yours to rant, and rave over....

 

[ludolfo]

ohh no I am not letting you theee great thinker off that easy. Now you must explain what you mean with that dismissive reply to my thoughts? IN detail please?

 

[kallipolis]

That you are unable to understand that your perspective, is merely your opinion, and not fact is not within my remit to ponder further.

 

[ludolfo]

That you are unable to understand that your perspective, is merely your opinion, and not fact is not within my remit to ponder further.

so you are claiming it IS a fact that a human being called Jesus from Nazareth was 'God's' only son are you?

If this is a fact, and 'objective' where is your evidence which proves it to be a fact?

 

[kallipolis]

so you are claiming it IS a fact that a human being called Jesus from Nazareth was 'God's' only son are you?

If this is a fact, and 'objective' where is your evidence which proves it to be a fact?

I am claiming nothing, here....you are the poster making the claims.

 

[ludolfo]

It is pointless trying to converse with you so why should I make any effort

 

[TX-Beau]

It is pointless trying to converse with you so why should I make any effort

Well, if this is going to be the standard for Net chat boards, we're all doomed.

 

[ludolfo]

Well, if this is going to be the standard for Net chat boards, we're all doomed.

I didn't mean with everyone ...? I meant those that spout none-sense

 

[TX-Beau]

Sorry, I was making a joke.