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Healthcare going forward

gsdx said:
From healthcare to slavery. Nice diversion.
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Agreed, perhaps we can get back to the topic.

Is there any indication that this attempt to revive the Healthcare Bill in the House have anything new? It seems all the same problems of the conflict between the right and center wings of the party remain. They still seem to be trying to appease the right wing when frankly they would stand a better chance working with the centrists and hopefully gaining some Democrat support.

The best way forward IMHO is scrap repeal and replace and go towards reform and fix.
 
They appease the right, it would never get through the Senate even with the slimmest of possibilities that they wouldn't have already turned off the more reasonable conservatives/what else remains that passes for centrists these days in the GOP House. It's futile... sure, reform and fix is the only logical way to go but we don't have for the most part a logical GOP.
 
Stardreamer said:
...The best way forward IMHO is scrap repeal and replace and go towards reform and fix.
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They have to try to revive it because they want to do it under reconciliation because they only have to have 51 votes in reconciliation, versus 60 votes during the normal session.

If they don't do it this year, they won't be able to take it up again until 2019 because they want to try to push tax reform through the 2018 reconciliation. And it's beginning to be apparent that they may not be in the majority in 2019, pobrecitos.
 
KaraBulut said:
In any discussion about Tasmania or Australia, invariably someone mentions that these countries were originally penal colonies for exiled British convicts. The similar discussions about the United States, it's rarely discussed. There's discussions about tobacco and Jamestown and the Mayflower and refugees of religious persecution, but rarely does the large number of indentured convicts in the American colonies get discussed.

A great deal of the history of the US has been rewritten to create a narrative that it is the land of opportunity and equality. The truth is that we didn't start out that way. It's taken a lot of inner turmoil and strife to get to where we are.

Or as the famous quote says, "Americans do the right thing when they have exhausted every other possibility".
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A whole bunch of my Scottish ancestors were indentured, but they weren't criminals, they were exiled Jacobites.
 
Stardreamer said:
Agreed, perhaps we can get back to the topic.

Is there any indication that this attempt to revive the Healthcare Bill in the House have anything new? It seems all the same problems of the conflict between the right and center wings of the party remain. They still seem to be trying to appease the right wing when frankly they would stand a better chance working with the centrists and hopefully gaining some Democrat support.

The best way forward IMHO is scrap repeal and replace and go towards reform and fix.
Click to expand...

It would appear that the Republican's "new plan" is even worse than the health care everyone agrees we had before the ACA. You can have coverage for pre-existing conditions from pools that you'll have to pay a going rate towards -- in other words, only the richest could afford it. Also, no coverage for children and no standards for plans that are offered. So you can buy worthless insurance, the insurance companies can go back to spending whatever they wish, no coverage for pre-existing conditions, back to life-time caps. Just wonderful! But every company in the world will now be offering policies (which won't cover illness, health, or wellness!)
 
KaraBulut said:
In any discussion about Tasmania or Australia, invariably someone mentions that these countries were originally penal colonies for exiled British convicts. The similar discussions about the United States, it's rarely discussed. There's discussions about tobacco and Jamestown and the Mayflower and refugees of religious persecution, but rarely does the large number of indentured convicts in the American colonies get discussed.

A great deal of the history of the US has been rewritten to create a narrative that it is the land of opportunity and equality. The truth is that we didn't start out that way. It's taken a lot of inner turmoil and strife to get to where we are.

Or as the famous quote says, "Americans do the right thing when they have exhausted every other possibility".
Click to expand...

I should look to see if any of this is in my copy of Lies My Teacher Told Me.

I do remember that in that history of the Royal Navy there was a note that members of Parliament referred to Georgia as a dumping ground for prisoners, but in reality the northern states got quite a few also -- because they were cheaper than slaves.
 
Stardreamer said:
The best way forward IMHO is scrap repeal and replace and go towards reform and fix.
Click to expand...
Perhaps they should pass a palatable REPLACE bill...first. The replacement bill would have an effective date and time of 12:00 a.m., immediately after a repeal would sunset Obamacare, so there would be no hiatus with a Wild West, free-for-all healthcare system. Unless there is a replacement plan already in place, I know damn-good-and-well that they would instead merely repeal Obamacare, and perhaps get a suitable replacement plan into law in time for our great-great-great grandchildren to get some benefit.

The REPLACE bill, of course, would have no date on it, because it would never take effect until Obamacare was repealed.

We're expected to believe the replacement will be better, because REPUBLICANS. I'm not falling for that shit. The last sign of the replacement bill that I saw, basically said that insurance companies don't have to cover ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL, with ALL "essential care" coverage optional.

thewiz said:
Just wonderful! But every company in the world will now be offering policies (which won't cover illness, health, or wellness!)
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Yes, as I said earlier, we could be forced to pay extortion money merely to perpetuate the existence of health insurance companies that will never pay for anything at all. Let this go to its logical conclusion (or, at least, logical in the world of Republicans)...what's to stop them from passing laws which require, for example, people to provide PROOF OF HEALTH INSURANCE before being allowed to get loans, or even get credit cards? "Oh, but enrolling in health insurance is voluntary." Yeah, right.

Just like paying rent for the roof over your head is voluntary.
 
thewiz said:
It would appear that the Republican's "new plan" is even worse than the health care everyone agrees we had before the ACA. You can have coverage for pre-existing conditions from pools that you'll have to pay a going rate towards -- in other words, only the richest could afford it. Also, no coverage for children and no standards for plans that are offered. So you can buy worthless insurance, the insurance companies can go back to spending whatever they wish, no coverage for pre-existing conditions, back to life-time caps. Just wonderful! But every company in the world will now be offering policies (which won't cover illness, health, or wellness!)
Click to expand...

Quite frankly they need to stop doing what they accused the Democrats of doing, trying to shove their vision of health care down the American people's throats by a party line vote. The three bucket thing is a flim flam tactic as McCain pointed out. If they seriously want to fix health care then they need to have a bipartisan discussion and develop a replacement bill that can pass the Senate with 60 votes.
 
frankfrank said:
Perhaps they should pass a palatable REPLACE bill...first. The replacement bill would have an effective date and time of 12:00 a.m., immediately after a repeal would sunset Obamacare, so there would be no hiatus with a Wild West, free-for-all healthcare system. Unless there is a replacement plan already in place, I know damn-good-and-well that they would instead merely repeal Obamacare, and perhaps get a suitable replacement plan into law in time for our great-great-great grandchildren to get some benefit.

The REPLACE bill, of course, would have no date on it, because it would never take effect until Obamacare was repealed.

We're expected to believe the replacement will be better, because REPUBLICANS. I'm not falling for that shit. The last sign of the replacement bill that I saw, basically said that insurance companies don't have to cover ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL, with ALL "essential care" coverage optional.


Yes, as I said earlier, we could be forced to pay extortion money merely to perpetuate the existence of health insurance companies that will never pay for anything at all. Let this go to its logical conclusion (or, at least, logical in the world of Republicans)...what's to stop them from passing laws which require, for example, people to provide PROOF OF HEALTH INSURANCE before being allowed to get loans, or even get credit cards? "Oh, but enrolling in health insurance is voluntary." Yeah, right.

Just like paying rent for the roof over your head is voluntary.
Click to expand...

The problem as I see it is Republicans have painted themselves into a corner over the last 8 years just like they have done with immigration. They have done such a job of selling to their base that Obamacare is a complete failure and that nothing short of a total repeal will prevent some obscure catastrophe that they can't realistically deal with the subject. Just like the ill-defined word 'amnesty' makes it impossible to even discuss the best way to deal with immigration (and if you want to discuss that example Benvolio START A NEW THREAD not here), the base is stuck on the idea that all of Obamacare must be repealed NOW, before any meaningful discussion of what healthcare should be, we are all doomed to some vague financial disaster. In this case, the ill-defined boogeyman word is Obamacare-lite, though I think they will find something a little catchier eventually.
 
Stardreamer said:
The problem as I see it is Republicans have painted themselves into a corner over the last 8 years just like they have done with immigration. They have done such a job of selling to their base that Obamacare is a complete failure and that nothing short of a total repeal will prevent some obscure catastrophe that they can't realistically deal with the subject. Just like the ill-defined word 'amnesty' makes it impossible to even discuss the best way to deal with immigration (and if you want to discuss that example Benvolio START A NEW THREAD not here), the base is stuck on the idea that all of Obamacare must be repealed NOW, before any meaningful discussion of what healthcare should be, we are all doomed to some vague financial disaster. In this case, the ill-defined boogeyman word is Obamacare-lite, though I think they will find something a little catchier eventually.
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If the GOP dos nothing, Obamacare will fail. http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/17/news/economy/obamacare-insurers/
 
Totally spot on, Neil. There are serious problems and volatilities but its far from on its last legs as the story points out. Can we significantly improve on it(with a real public option/single payer)? Hell yeah. But Ben is not telling the truth peddling the scare tactics as usual.

However, there is a lot Trump and the GOP can do to sabotage it and that's worrisome and what would be unacceptable.
 
Sausy said:
Totally spot on, Neil. There are serious problems and volatilities but its far from on its last legs as the story points out. Can we significantly improve on it(with a real public option/single payer)? Hell yeah. But Ben is not telling the truth peddling the scare tactics as usual.

However, there is a lot Trump and the GOP can do to sabotage it and that's worrisome and what would be unacceptable.
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Look again. It suggests ways Congress could save it if they chose to but cllearly it will fail if the Republicans in Congress do not choose to rescue it, and they will not.
 
Benvolio said:
Look again. It suggests ways Congress could save it if they chose to but cllearly it will fail if the Republicans in Congress do not choose to rescue it, and they will not.
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Excuse my French, but you, sir, are a fucking liar. Nowhere in that report do the words 'Congress', 'save', 'fail', 'Republicans', or 'rescue' appear.

Nice alternative facts. You just make up your own.
 
Benvolio said:
If the GOP dos nothing, Obamacare will fail. http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/17/news/economy/obamacare-insurers/
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May fail and it seems the Republicans will share the blame for it.
No ‘Death Spiral’: Insurers May Soon Profit From Obamacare Plans, Analysis Finds

It is not a foregone conclusion and there is likely easier solutions to the problem than a total repeal and replace but those solutions require a realistic attempt to evaluate and fix things in a bipatisan manner. Which comes back to my point about the Republican's problem.
 
Stardreamer said:
Well, at least he has agreed that the Republicans ARE the problem.
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At this point, you're being trolled just to keep the thread going.
 
KaraBulut said:
At this point, you're being trolled just to keep the thread going.
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Well, it was my thread to start with and I would like to see it go forward if we could get back to the original question of what is the best way forward for health care in the US. One would think that being in power the Republicans could work with the Democrats to make a fairly conservative idea of an insurance marketplace like Obamacare work if they were only willing to move past their own rhetoric. That has always been the interesting thing about this to me if a Republican president had fielded this idea they would be calling it genius.

It still seems to me that the only real major problem is stabilizing the marketplaces so insurance companies have some stability and assurance of success.
 
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