Help me to understand something about the U.S. football national anthem kneeling protests....

[Benvolio]

This is a double slap-in-the-face. Not only has this wannabe Senator mutilated the flag by cutting a hole in the middle of it big enough to stick his head through, but he's wearing it inside-out, something the US Code explicitly says he can't do without penalty.

Anyone making this about the flag or the anthem are doing nothing but trying to distract us from the REAL problem of people dying needlessly, and THAT is the real slap in the face.

Who wants to make him a senator?
The critical question is whether disrespect is intended? Footballers, yes, Kid Rock, no.

 

[Willie Boy]

Nothing to see here, move along.....

 

[peeonme]

It is you who do not understand. In 2015 a police officer was more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a black officer. Black males are 6% of the population, but 42% of cop killers. http://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-real-cause-of-soaring-black-homicides/
It is the police who are under attack and they are entitled to defend themselves. The attitude of people on this forum demonstrates how wide spread the hostility toward the police is, and you, I assume, are law abiding. In such an atmosphere, a few mistakes will be made

Killing an unarmed man is not an "OOPS!" moment.

 

[gsdx]

Who wants to make him a senator?
The critical question is whether disrespect is intended? Footballers, yes, Kid Rock, no.

Seriously? The footballers disrespect a 'custom' (YOUR word, not mine) and Kid Rock destroys a flag in way the LAW says he mustn't do.

And 'they' are:

https://www.kidrockforsenate.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/kid-rock-senate-run-support/index.html
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...ock_become_michigans_next_senator_134792.html
http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-kno...ock-might-actually-win-the-republican-primary
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/348033-gop-eager-for-potential-kid-rock-senate-bid

You want more? There are more.

By the way, this is not 'new' news. It's from over a month ago.

 

[Benvolio]

Seriously? The footballers disrespect a 'custom' (YOUR word, not mine) and Kid Rock destroys a flag in way the LAW says he mustn't do.

And 'they' are:

https://www.kidrockforsenate.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/kid-rock-senate-run-support/index.html
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...ock_become_michigans_next_senator_134792.html
http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-kno...ock-might-actually-win-the-republican-primary
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/348033-gop-eager-for-potential-kid-rock-senate-bid

You want more? There are more.

By the way, this is not 'new' news. It's from over a month ago.

Nevertheless, the intent to insult or not is the important factor. If it is intended as an insult or disrespect, it is; if not it is not. I would point out that "Uncle Sam" has been wearing the flag about as long as there has been a flag.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Nevertheless, the intent to insult or not is the important factor. If it is intended as an insult or disrespect, it is; if not it is not. I would point out that "Uncle Sam" has been wearing the flag about as long as there has been a flag.

No, actually. I've never seen that image wear a flag. He wears stars and stripes separately, on separate items of clothing. That is not a flag adorning someone's paunch, it's a representation of laws and responsibilities wearing a fancy hat.

To be absolutely, crystal clear about the difference, Uncle Sam is a fictional representation, a personification of the governmental process as-it-stands. Uncle Sam wears a hat that with stars on the band, and occasionally a striped pair of trousers.

That is a far cry from cutting a hole in the flag and shoving a mediocre musicians head through the gap. Upsidedown and backwards. Sartorial standards have fallen, obviously.

You shouldn't be arguing as if the personification of our constitution and government in cartoon format is expected to go without the trappings to make it recognizable. He is not a real man, Ben. You need to look up what symbolism is.

 

[gsdx]

Nevertheless, the intent to insult or not is the important factor. If it is intended as an insult or disrespect, it is; if not it is not. I would point out that "Uncle Sam" has been wearing the flag about as long as there has been a flag.

As has been pointed out by luckynumbah7, Uncle Sam is NOT wearing a flag. He is wearing a representation of a flag. Kid Rock mutilated an American Flag which is AGAINST THE LAW. There is no law that I know of stating that footballers must stand at attention with their right hand over their heart (which, I remind you once again, Trump had to be reminded to do) during the playing of the national anthem. It is nothing more than etiquette.

You've been shoving 'Free Speech' down our throats for months, and now that a black guy is expressing his guaranteed constitutional right, it's a travesty and an insult.

Sorry, mate, but you can't have it both ways. He has as much right to protest by kneeling as those 'friends' of yours who carry Tiki torches and give the Nazi salute. They made the protest about statues. You're making the footballers protest about the flag and the anthem, and it is not. It is about people dying. And his constitutional right to protest far outweighs any customs or etiquette you might try to throw at us.

 

[Benvolio]

As has been pointed out by luckynumbah7, Uncle Sam is NOT wearing a flag. He is wearing a representation of a flag. Kid Rock mutilated an American Flag which is AGAINST THE LAW. There is no law that I know of stating that footballers must stand at attention with their right hand over their heart (which, I remind you once again, Trump had to be reminded to do) during the playing of the national anthem. It is nothing more than etiquette.

You've been shoving 'Free Speech' down our throats for months, and now that a black guy is expressing his guaranteed constitutional right, it's a travesty and an insult.

Sorry, mate, but you can't have it both ways. He has as much right to protest by kneeling as those 'friends' of yours who carry Tiki torches and give the Nazi salute. They made the protest about statues. You're making the footballers protest about the flag and the anthem, and it is not. It is about people dying. And his constitutional right to protest far outweighs any customs or etiquette you might try to throw at us.

You do not understand. No one questions their right to insult us, the nation, the anthem, the flag.

 

[luckynumbah7]

As has been pointed out by luckynumbah7, Uncle Sam is NOT wearing a flag. He is wearing a representation of a flag.

Minor quibble; he's a personification; he is, in a literal sense, the flag, the constitution that it represents and the actions of our government (not necessarily the people who comprise it). Hence my muttering. He's not wearing a flag because in a very roundabout sense, he is the flag. The statue of liberty could also be considered a personification of ideals/statement.

Ben's example really was shit on this one. Christ. People in the usa learn personification and its relative powers early, I thought. Where the hell did he miss that bit to try and pass Uncle Sam in as random Joe down the block?

 

[gsdx]

You do not understand. No one questions their right to insult us, the nation, the anthem, the flag.

You don't understand how hypocritical you are to claim and defend the First Amendment for one and throw it in the trash for another, and you don't understand how mutilating a flag and wearing it inside-out cannot compare to not standing up for the national anthem. And you don't understand that this is not a 'flag/anthem' issue. It is about people dying.

The only reason Trump is making such a big issue of it is so that he doesn't have to deal with the real problem because, being the bigot that he is, he probably has an orgasm every time another black person is murdered by a cop.

Oh, and I would wait for your apology for once-again calling me a liar, but I know it will never come.

 

[peeonme]

You do not understand. No one questions their right to insult us, the nation, the anthem, the flag.

The right that has been violated is the one referred to as an unalienable right, that is life.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

These players are seeking to alter a government that has become destructive to these ends. When the right to life is not recognized
people have a duty, not just a right to confront the powers that allow it.

 

[Benvolio]

You don't understand how hypocritical you are to claim and defend the First Amendment for one and throw it in the trash for another, and you don't understand how mutilating a flag and wearing it inside-out cannot compare to not standing up for the national anthem. And you don't understand that this is not a 'flag/anthem' issue. It is about people dying.

The only reason Trump is making such a big issue of it is so that he doesn't have to deal with the real problem because, being the bigot that he is, he probably has an orgasm every time another black person is murdered by a cop.

Oh, and I would wait for your apology for once-again calling me a liar, but I know it will never come.

I have not thrown the first amendment in the trash. I have already said that the footballers have the right to insult us, the nation, the anthem, the flag. No it is not about people dying. It is about the national anthem and the nation and people it represents.

 

[LeicsDom]

Kid Rock mutilated an American Flag which is AGAINST THE LAW.

Oh dear. Like so many religious nuts you guys seem to be cherry picking the bits of the law that suits you.
The flag cannot be used for promotional or advertising purposes. and yet Trump sells flag emblazened tat on his website which is specifically forbidden The Flag Code also bars representation or display of the flag to promote any individual political candidate or group, or any private organization.

I could go on
A complete storm in a tea cup and comlete bollocks - just like much of what comes out of the White House at the moment

 

[gsdx]

Oh dear. Like so many religious nuts you guys seem to be cherry picking the bits of the law that suits you.

I looked up the law and I read it. I believe I even posted it. The law refers to the flag itself and not to representations of the flag. There is a huge difference between and actual flag and a patch you sew on your backpack.

By the way, I'm neither American nor a religious not. This has nothing to do with religion.

 

[peeonme]

Oh dear. Like so many religious nuts you guys seem to be cherry picking the bits of the law that suits you.
The flag cannot be used for promotional or advertising purposes. and yet Trump sells flag emblazened tat on his website which is specifically forbidden The Flag Code also bars representation or display of the flag to promote any individual political candidate or group, or any private organization.

I could go on
A complete storm in a tea cup and comlete bollocks - just like much of what comes out of the White House at the moment

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard
The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.
The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.
The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.

The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.

When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.

If you read this you will not find "cannot" it says the " The flag should ...."
From post 23 by luckynumbah7