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Here's A Question For You...

trawler69

trawler69

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He could be the nicest kindest person in the world but if he is reserved, wary of relationships with a low self esteem and doesn't go out looking to make friends that could lead to a relationship then it is never going to happen. Remove the nice and kind reference and I could be looking in a mirror.
 
trawler69 said:
He could be the nicest kindest person in the world but if he is reserved, wary of relationships with a low self esteem and doesn't go out looking to make friends that could lead to a relationship then it is never going to happen. Remove the nice and kind reference and I could be looking in a mirror.
Click to expand...


This is right along with my thoughts. If The Pianist is as hard on himself out there as he is in here, then there's no way he's putting out a confident vibe that says, "Hi, I'm an incredibly witty pianist with mad skills who is sure of himself and ready for a relationship with a great guy."

At various times in my life I've had the pleasure of visiting two very good and insightful psychologists, and both of them nailed the same thing--regardless of how attractive, funny, caring and intelligent I am, I put out a safe, nonsexual, "don't notice me, I'm invisible" kind of vibe. As bad as it sounds, I've had guys who were very much attracted to me and wanted to shag me or date me, and I found every reason I could to think they must be crazy, lying or hiding something if they wanted to be with me. Or, I don't even notice them and friends point out to me later, "that guy was interested in you." As a teacher, it gets back to me all the time that some woman in my class has a crush on me or wants to date me--I have no trouble believing that, because I know I reveal to them a lot of qualities they might find attractive. But a man? Not even on my radar.

It's also been my experience when I was painfully self-conscious about being gay, and putting out that vibe, students who were also painfully self-conscious about being gay would shy away from me and not reveal themselves as such. These weren't people I was interested in dating--they were just students whose pain I could see on their faces and I wished they could come to me to talk with so I could reassure them they were okay. I later realized that they probably sensed I was gay as well, and even though I vocalized the idea in my classes that gay people deserved the same respect and rights as anyone else, I wasn't putting out a vibe that I embraced myself as one of them. We were magnets repelling each other instead of attracting. When I started coming out and accepting my orientation more, they suddenly began seeing me as a role model comfortable enough with myself to open the door to discussion.

I'm betting we would find ourselves in similar boats, Gery. You have such an aversion on here to the idea that someone would be interested in you and find you worthy of seeing; I contend that because that's your reality of who you are, then that's what you portray to others, so even if someone notices you, you remain invisible to them. It's not what they see in you that matters, but what you see in you and then project outwards. And we've all had a chance on here to experience what you see in yourself. And if I may be so bold--well, you're just wrong. (*8*)
 
Yep. Yep yep yep. Since you fall into that 98% of the population that's neither "really hot" nor "really ugly", it's gonna be up to your personality to win the day. The wit and charm you display here most likely would go a long way in securing you a guy. Your excess modesty and "goshawillikers, but NOBODY would EVER be interested in li'l ol' ME" won't help at all. It's one thing to not have a swelled head, or to have realistic expectations, but it's quite another to assume that you're unworthy. People far less attractive - physically and personality-wise both - have managed to snag partners.

I'd refer you back to a previous thread of yours, but I don't feel like searching for it, or feel like participating in what would probably follow.

Lex
 
To add to the ideas presented above, I am wondering if you have allowed yourself the opportunities to meet like-minded people (read: single, gay males of your approximate age).

If you don't meet anyone single and gay then it isn't likely you are going to find anyone interested.
 
either you dont show the depth of your worth to people or you arent going to the right places

maybe you just need to go out more?
 
I can't speak for you, or anyone else, but I was worried when I went to "bed" with all three (yes, three) of my partners for the first time. (The first one wasn't in bed, thus the qualifier.) This performance anxiety, and the feeling that I wouldn't know what to do, dissapated very quickly. After all, unlike hetero sex, gay sex is pretty much improvised. There's no "set" form to follow, so it tends to follow whatever path the participants choose. So when I grabbed here or licked there, there was no "what the hell are you doing?" from my partner. Occasionally, there were verbal or physical cues to move this way or that, but there were no wrong moves. Or, to move it back your way - hetero sex is a sonata, gay sex is a Thelonious Monk jam. :) My "performance" may not have been expert - still isn't, probably - but I think I more than made up for it by throwing myself into it wholeheartedly.

So keep the feelers out. Keep making friends, gay and straight. Keep developing the relationships. And eventually, one will probably head towards the bedroom. And when it does, keep the sheet music on the piano.

I'd love some tea, thanks.

Lex
 
If the relationship follows the path I've outlined above, it's extremely doubtful that the guy who you're taking to bed will consider you as simply a handy recepticle. When the relationship comes before the rumpy-pumpy, the participants usually care enough about their partner to do what they can to get each other off. If it appears the damper pedal's been put on your equipment, the guy will probably try some techniques to try to get you back in the game. And if it those don't work - as does happen sometimes - the only thing that changes is the endgame. Your lovemaking won't end with a crescendo, it'll end with a fade out. (OK, even I'M getting tired of the musical sexual metaphors.) And there's nothing wrong with that. It's the journey, not the destination (although the destination IS wonderful!). Yes, there are selfish bastards who are only out for their own kicks, and there are thin-skinned folks who see a lost erection as a personal affront. But chances are you'll see these traits in people long before you head to bed...at which point, you'd probably reconsider taking them to bed. Or even keeping them on as friends, if they're that extreme.

Of course, if you do choose to go the bathhouse/park route, your odds of having your needs met will decrease quite a bit. And that is, I think, what's giving you pause.

Lex
 
I really wish I could offer something in this regard as I feel you're pain, it's something I contend with myself almost daily. I hope that things get better as I do not doubt that you deserve many good things in life. Such as love and companionship.
 
In that case, certainly, why bother with the hook-up? Unless you feel some sort of satisfaction in getting a stranger off, which doesn't appear to be the case.

>>>Sex WITH someone, scares the hell out of me because it's been so unfulling, I honestly can't imagine it being anything else,

My first sexual experience was simply two guys looking to get off. No relationship, obviously. It was what it was, but for what it was, it wasn't bad. Especially considering neither of us had been with a guy before.

The other two were relationships. The first one was very good. It would've been better, but the relationship wasn't...great. A fair amount of weirdness. And that didn't help. The second one is the current one. And it's fantastic. And even when it's less-than-ideal, it's still better than either of the first two.

Judging by other posters here, it's not all that uncommon, either.

Thank you.

Lex
 
Well, Gery, at the risk of just sounding like I'm going into further psychobabble, here's the next shot. You just said above that you've been sexually active since you were eight years old. If that's true, then you were the victim of sexual abuse, even if it was with someone of the same age (which is referred to as child-on-child abuse). Sexual abuse at such at early age often plays out in a variety of ways, including seeking partners where


sex is the only connection

the victim is drawn to pleasure others, but receives no satisfaction

shame, guilt, or disgust in one's self is the outcome

promiscuous behavior is exhibited or avoidance of sex occurs

fear of or lack of belief that true intimacy can be achieved occurs

and, among others, weight is gained as a way of creating
a barrier of "unattractiveness" so that others will keep their
distance, even while desiring intimacy.

I've worked with a number of young people over the years who have experienced sexual abuse, and many of them have exhibited some or all of the characteristics listed above. Even if they do not see the initial abuse as something terrible, they subconsciously are still driven to act out the list above. I'm not saying anything you've described is definitely linked to your early sexualization, but it's as possible a theory as any.

So the possible progression here? You experienced sexual contact at too early an age, subconsciously beginning a desire to seek out unsatisfying sexual experiences. You had an active sexual life as you got older, but it left you unfulfilled, and often full of shame, guilt or fear. As you became more disenchanted by the whole situation, you internalized those emotions even more, deciding that it must be you that is broken, ugly or repulsive in some way, so you started putting on weight. The weight became a good thing to blame, along with age or lack of funds, for why no one would want you, and then placing yourself in situations where that proved to be true became the norm.

I don't know if this is what is playing out here. I know that when someone offers you a perspective, you have this way of dismissing their points without really disproving them, sort of a "ding, thanks for playing, that's not it" way of dealing with it. As one of the posters above pointed out, there are far meaner, uglier, fatter, older, poorer, less interesting, less intelligent, less humorous men than you who are getting laid--and many of them are in actual intimate and caring relationships while doing so. So if you're looking for reinforcement in the idea that there's ultimately just something so wrong with you that you can't find someone, well, I guess I can't offer you that.

But I will offer this (*8*), even if you shoot down everything I've just said.
 
Perhaps the Pianist has foul body odors and/or rancid breath, which we on the interweb cannot smell?

Perhaps the Pianist has been so emotionally scarred by the rather tepid sex he's had in the past and subconsciously sabotages the possibilities of relationships that present themselves to him so that he doesn't have to bear that particular disappointment again?

Just two off the top of my head from another fantastic guy who conspicuously lacks a long line of adoring would-be lovers.
 
After reading what you just wrote, Gery, one word comes to mind--survivor.

What you have survived makes you an amazing person. The fact that you can create beautiful music you choose to share with others, after what you've been through, or perhaps even because of what you've been through, just adds to my respect for you.

If you've ever heard an audience clap after one of your performances, THAT is the truth of who you are. Everything you tell yourself in opposition to that is what has been handed to you by a lot of assholes or emotionally stunted people over an extended period of time. Don't let their voices be your voice any more. You get a lot of positive feedback from people on here, as you've said...start borrowing their voices to become your own. Start telling yourself who you really are, and keep saying it until you believe it.

I know none of that is easy, but hey, you are a survivor. Nothing you've ever been through was easy. (*8*)
 
Sometimes you've got to take the positivity where you can find it. So take it from the animated gargoyle a thousand miles away:

You kick ass.

And thanks for the tea.

Lex
 
Well, for what it's worth, there's no punchline. I've got no rug to pull out.

Lex
 
As one of the guys who's tried to encourage you, albeit unsuccessfully, I was drawn to read through this entire thread. I find myself struck by one common theme.

Trust.

We all learn trust by having others keep promises, treat us with the kindness and love we deserve, asking for help and getting it, and so on. Each and every one of us has been let down on more than one occasion. Having said that, it seems clear that you've been 'let down' more than your share. But it also seems that most of those 'let-downs' were in the relatively distant past.

I'm gonna borrow a quote from another movie (cheesy, I know) that I find some truth in:

"Childhood is what you spend the rest of your life trying to overcome"

Yeah. I know. Some have great childhoods, but a lot of us didn't. You included.

You feel burned enough that you can't trust that people aren't "mocking" you, deriding you, or planning to fail you. That mistrust, those protective walls, the pre-emptive self-deprecation almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you silently, involuntarily hold the world at arm's length, that's where they'll stay.

You're asking for someone to PROVE it to you first. The problem is that "new" people who don't know you will tend to take your behavior at face value. If you don't trust them, if you deflect their kindness, and continuously insult yourself often enough, they will eventually believe that you're as awful as you insist or they'll respectfully give you the protective space that you appear to be demanding.

At some point you have to make the decision that you're gonna give some of us the benefit of the doubt and expose yourself to disappointment. Not everyone is gonna disappoint you. Some will because, like it or not, there's no shortage of inconsiderate assholes in the world.

I don't know you well so I have to trust that everything you're telling me is true. You don't know me (or most of the others posting here) well so you have to trust that what we are telling you is true. If we tell you you're a great guy, it's ok to believe it. If you receive applause or effusive praise, it's ok to relish it.

From my POV, no one in this thread has come even close to mocking you, deriding you or plotting some insult. The warmth is genuine.

The bottom line is that only you can make the decision to trust people, to graciously and honestly accept compliments for what they are (and they're not just hyperbole!). Maybe once you've done that the guard will drop, your confidence will improve, and those walls will start to come down. Then, and probably only then, will someone you meet think it's worth taking take the next step and finally PROVE it to you. Confidence (and I agree, not conceit) is powerfully attractive.

I genuinely hope that you find what you seek.
 
here we get to see all of the sides of your personality. we see things about you that people in your day-to-day life don't get to. these things are what make you great. i think the back stage passes idea is a good one. the people that would want them would be people that have paid enough attention to know more about you. but i do think a large part of your problem is that you don't feel worthy. you need to do little things every day to fight off the feeling that you are not good enough. start being more honest with yourself, get up every morning and look in the mirror (ok maybe not first thing, if you are anything like me, you wont like what yo see first thing in the morning) tell yourself that you are worthy.

make a list of 10 good things about you, and 10 bad things. focus on the good things those are the things that you want to keep. then look at the bad things. those are things you either need to learn to live with or change. then take the time to change the things you don't want to live with, it will take time, but it is worth it. as you are working with the list, you will notice that your self esteem will become higher. and that will help you with finding a guy.

"You cannot be happy with someone else, until you are happy with yourself." ~Phyllis Curott
 
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