High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

[HenryReardon]

This report, which came in an e-mail from Newsmax ( I can already hear the lefties howling in dismay at that) cites data from a UN Report.

I downloaded that report and checked some of the numbers, and so can you, if you're interested.

Sorry, but there is no url for an e-mail

Excerpt:

But when it comes to the firearm homicide rate, the United States doesn’t even make the top 25.

According to figures collected by the United Nations’ Office on Drugs and Crime through its annual crime survey, 9,146 Americans were victims of a firearm homicide in the most recent year. That translates to a rate of 2.97 firearm homicides per 100,000 population, only the 27th highest rate in the world.

The highest rate by far can be found in Honduras, 68 homicides per 100,000, followed by El Salvador (40), Jamaica (39), Venezuela (38.9), Guatemala (34), and Colombia (27).

For America’s neighbors, the rate in Mexico is 9.9 per 100,000, and in Canada, 0.5 per 100,000.

It is interesting to note that not only does the United States have a relatively low homicide rate compared to its gun ownership rate, but Switzerland, which ranks third in the civilian gun ownership rate, has only the 46th highest homicide rate, and Finland, with the fourth highest ownership rate, is 63rd on the list.

“The most obnoxious liberal talking points on guns involve the idea that guns, in and of themselves, cause gun violence,” writes CNS News commentator Stephen Gutowski. “In other words, more guns must mean more gun violence.”

But in light of the ownership and homicide figures, he observes: “More guns do not, in fact, mean more gun violence. Guns can be, and commonly are, used in a responsible manner, especially here in the United States.”

 

[Rolyo85]

So the US is great because it doesn't have the gun violence rates of drug cartel countries, even though its still way ahead of any other first world country? Way to shoot yourself in the leg, Reardon

 

[palemale]

This report, which came in an e-mail from Newsmax ( I can already hear the lefties howling in dismay at that) cites data from a UN Report.

I downloaded that report and checked some of the numbers, and so can you, if you're interested.

Sorry, but there is no url for an e-mail

Excerpt:

But when it comes to the firearm homicide rate, the United States doesn’t even make the top 25.

According to figures collected by the United Nations’ Office on Drugs and Crime through its annual crime survey, 9,146 Americans were victims of a firearm homicide in the most recent year. That translates to a rate of 2.97 firearm homicides per 100,000 population, only the 27th highest rate in the world.

The highest rate by far can be found in Honduras, 68 homicides per 100,000, followed by El Salvador (40), Jamaica (39), Venezuela (38.9), Guatemala (34), and Colombia (27).

For America’s neighbors, the rate in Mexico is 9.9 per 100,000, and in Canada, 0.5 per 100,000.

It is interesting to note that not only does the United States have a relatively low homicide rate compared to its gun ownership rate, but Switzerland, which ranks third in the civilian gun ownership rate, has only the 46th highest homicide rate, and Finland, with the fourth highest ownership rate, is 63rd on the list.

“The most obnoxious liberal talking points on guns involve the idea that guns, in and of themselves, cause gun violence,” writes CNS News commentator Stephen Gutowski. “In other words, more guns must mean more gun violence.”

But in light of the ownership and homicide figures, he observes: “More guns do not, in fact, mean more gun violence. Guns can be, and commonly are, used in a responsible manner, especially here in the United States.”

You find comfort in the fact that our homicide rate by gun violence is better than war torn countries, countries afflicted with narco-terrorism and drug gang violence and/or countries that have dysfunctional governments? That's crazy.

Our homicide rate is so much higher than any other developed country it is shocking. Much of the reason is our unregulated gun purchase system and the fact that regulation is patch work among the states instead of national. Our gun laws and gun culture, and culture of violence, is a national disgrace.

By the way, here is the cite for the UN statistics: http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html

 

[Orlandude]

This is such a perfect example of why people "howl in dismay" at Newsmax.

 

[Benvolio]

The UN study is disproved by the American experience. While a large percentage of white Americans own guns, crimes using guns by white Americans is comparable to those of other first world countries.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/02/an-honest-debate-about-gun-violence/#ixzz2KWLZH1u0
"Indeed, gun violence in America largely consists of black and Hispanic males shooting other black and Hispanic males. According to a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, based on data collected by the Center for Disease Control, 1.5 white Americans in 100,000 were shot and killed in 2007 — still higher than the Canadian rate of 0.6, but, given the population densities of the two nations, at least in the same ballpark. On the other hand, the rate for Hispanic Americans was an alarming 5.2 per 100,000 — more than three times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African Americans was a grotesque 18.1 per 100,000, or roughly 12 times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African-American males was an obscene 37.59 per 100,000."


No race is not the cause. My ONLY conclusion from this is that gun ownership does not equal high gun violence.
Beyond that, gun control laws will have the effect of taking guns from law abiding people, but will be avoided by criminals. Will we keep guns from being brought across the border? Of course not.

 

[bankside]

Oh goody! The United States outranks HONDURAS! Well, that's an accomplishment!

The relevant point about Swiss gun ownership is they have elevated rates of both private gun ownership and private gun violence. It's not an achievement to say "Wow! Given they have so many guns in Switzerland, it's a wonder there aren't more shootings! See? Guns are safe!" Nonsense; they have more guns; they have more gun violence.

The UN study is disproved by the American experience. While a large percentage of white Americans own guns, crimes using guns by white Americans is comparable to those of other first world countries.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/02/an-honest-debate-about-gun-violence/#ixzz2KWLZH1u0
"Indeed, gun violence in America largely consists of black and Hispanic males shooting other black and Hispanic males. According to a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, based on data collected by the Center for Disease Control, 1.5 white Americans in 100,000 were shot and killed in 2007 — still higher than the Canadian rate of 0.6, but, given the population densities of the two nations, at least in the same ballpark. On the other hand, the rate for Hispanic Americans was an alarming 5.2 per 100,000 — more than three times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African Americans was a grotesque 18.1 per 100,000, or roughly 12 times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African-American males was an obscene 37.59 per 100,000."


No race is not the cause. My ONLY conclusion from this is that gun ownership does not equal high gun violence.
Beyond that, gun control laws will have the effect of taking guns from law abiding people, but will be avoided by criminals. Will we keep guns from being brought across the border? Of course not.

That is a great pile of statistical crap about Canada and US comparisons; those rates are already adjusted per capita. To say that "given the population densities of the two nations" makes any difference is an attempt to patch up a hole shot through the argument on the assumption the audience doesn't understand statistics. Canada has a much smaller population, but is equally urban. Our population densities are the same in the inhabited parts of the country; unlike the States we just have completely empty vast wilderness areas where the gun ownership rate, like the population, is zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country


So Canada is comparable to the States, and "population density" is completely beside the point, and our gun violence rate is less than half of yours.

And it would be lower still if the US had gun manufacturing and export controls with some guts; the only country that has to worry about guns coming across the border is Canada. The damn things are made in the States.

 

[Durango95]

I don't think the numbers are to be trusted in actuality. The UN is notorious for creative math.

Those who do not want to carry or own a weapon are perfectly fine with me. I don't care if they don't want to have that option to protect themselves or their property. I am not going to relinquish my rights to carry a weapon. I don't have to according to the Constitution. No elected official is above the Constitution. None.

The thing that is surprising to me is it is never pointed out that criminals do not comply routinely with gun laws. If guns are removed from the hands of law abiding citizens it will not affect the removal of guns from the hands of criminals. In fact many studies show that the removal of guns from law abiding citizens actually facilitates criminals in their activities.

It then is a question as to whom would benefit from laws abridging the rights of law abiding citizens having a weapon. Keeping in mind the criminal will always have access to a weapon. The answer is quite clear. One party is the party of criminals. They even registered prison inmates to vote in the last election. The OWS protests which were lauded by one particular party was rife with criminality. The one particular party is opposed to closed borders and supports foreign nations entering this country without complying with the established law. Hmm. I wonder which political party has the criminal constituency.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I don't think the numbers are to be trusted in actuality. The UN is notorious for creative math.

This kind of statement about any actual hard stats we can look at are always the preamble to an argument essentially saying "let's make up whatever we want to think is the reality."

 

[Durango95]

This kind of statement about any actual hard stats we can look at are always the preamble to an argument essentially saying "let's make up whatever we want to think is the reality."

Ok Here's a stat....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-25-most-dangerous-cities-in-america.html?page=all

I will note that of these 25 cities 19 of them are run by Democrats. I will also note that the three mayors that identify themselves as independent, routinely vote with the Democrats on policy. So we know what that really means. It is much akin to Joe Lieberman.

 

[T-Rexx]

Here is a summary of the U.N. findings by the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

As you can see, countries with the highest gun ownership tend to have the highest rates of death by firearm.

It's inexplicable! It's as if there were some connection between the two!

 

[xbuzzerx]

Ok Here's a stat....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-25-most-dangerous-cities-in-america.html?page=all

I will note that of these 25 cities 19 of them are run by Democrats. I will also note that the three mayors that identify themselves as independent, routinely vote with the Democrats on policy. So we know what that really means. It is much akin to Joe Lieberman.

So you're making an assertion that the simple fact of Democratic city level politics somehow makes people go shoot each other? And that this is a bigger role than how easily people can get guns?

 

[Benvolio]

No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.

 

[xbuzzerx]

No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.

All that shows is that more unstable countries with greater social problems will have higher crime-- not that the presence of guns doesn't influence gun crime rates, especially when other factors are comparable.

As Palemale said early on, if you have to compare the u.S. to unstable countries with narcoterrorism or extreme poverty problems or civil unrest/guerilla warfre to make our crime rate look good, then the story kinda tells itself.

 

[Telstra]

This report, which came in an e-mail from Newsmax ( I can already hear the lefties howling in dismay at that) cites data from a UN Report.

I downloaded that report and checked some of the numbers, and so can you, if you're interested.

Sorry, but there is no url for an e-mail

Excerpt:

But when it comes to the firearm homicide rate, the United States doesn’t even make the top 25.

According to figures collected by the United Nations’ Office on Drugs and Crime through its annual crime survey, 9,146 Americans were victims of a firearm homicide in the most recent year. That translates to a rate of 2.97 firearm homicides per 100,000 population, only the 27th highest rate in the world.

The highest rate by far can be found in Honduras, 68 homicides per 100,000, followed by El Salvador (40), Jamaica (39), Venezuela (38.9), Guatemala (34), and Colombia (27).

For America’s neighbors, the rate in Mexico is 9.9 per 100,000, and in Canada, 0.5 per 100,000.

It is interesting to note that not only does the United States have a relatively low homicide rate compared to its gun ownership rate, but Switzerland, which ranks third in the civilian gun ownership rate, has only the 46th highest homicide rate, and Finland, with the fourth highest ownership rate, is 63rd on the list.

“The most obnoxious liberal talking points on guns involve the idea that guns, in and of themselves, cause gun violence,” writes CNS News commentator Stephen Gutowski. “In other words, more guns must mean more gun violence.”

But in light of the ownership and homicide figures, he observes: “More guns do not, in fact, mean more gun violence. Guns can be, and commonly are, used in a responsible manner, especially here in the United States.”

So, 27th is not good enough and want to be number 1 in that category? Go for it !!!

 

[T-Rexx]

No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.

You, sir, have absolutely no understanding of statistics.

The correlation is quite high. It is not perfect. Those of us who make our living interpreting data know that perfect correlations are almost always the result of faked data.

The data are good, and the conclusion is inescapable.

 

[CowboyBob]

Comparing gun violence in the United States with smaller third world countries full of drug cartels is absurd.

Newsmax is a right wing media organization. Of course they're going to make ridiculous claims in an attempt to back up their argument.

newsmax is a major player in GOP politics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsmax_Media

Reardon, if you want to back up your argument with facts, try a real news organization that doesn't have an agenda. Next you'll be quoting something from Glen Beck's website, Storm Front or Breitbart.com.

 

[Durango95]

There are 198 countries in the world. To be ranked 27th is not something that bolsters your case HenryReardon, it is damning.
And i'm certain that access to guns from the US plays a pivotal role in the ranking of many of your regional neighbours who are higher up that list.

One must realize that of those 198 countries, most are present day anachronisms. One can drive just a few miles outside of most major cities in Africa or Asia and be hundreds and sometimes thousands of years in the past, socially, technically, politically, psychologically, scientifically, medically and genetically. As to the neighbor comment, Canada is a neighbor and doesn't have a high crime rate. I think to what is being referred in the proclivity for criminality of the citizens in certain countries to the south of the U.S. When it is view through the prism of crimes statistics in the U.S. concerning these same people , it stands to reason that criminality would be higher in those areas.

 

[Telstra]

The USA can't compare their gun deaths with the less developed countries.
They should compare their gun deaths with the countries like western Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Durango95]

So you're making an assertion that the simple fact of Democratic city level politics somehow makes people go shoot each other? And that this is a bigger role than how easily people can get guns?

I was drawing a corollary to the amount of criminality in a certain area with the fact the area is controlled by the party that routinely fosters criminality.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I was drawing a corollary to the amount of criminality in a certain area with the fact the area is controlled by the party that routinely fosters criminality.

And what is the mechanism through which that is achieved? Democrats in city level office put something in the water?