House OK's Debt Bill; Senate Rejects It.

[JayHawk]

No getting done what you set out to do is leadership.... Keep up.

 

[MoltenRock III]

I wonder why the democratic party was railing against illegal wiretaps, GTMO, war execution, the patriot act and many other items that were kept intact in every sense of the word. Yet they have fallen silent all of sudden. No constant blaring about GTMO on the news from every partisan hack. I wonder if that is the political game? To say and do whatever to win for your side?

Hmmmm

To be fair Americans showed their true cowardly colors by freaking out over the actuality of closing GITMO and trying suspects in courts. The GOP & Fox saw to that. Did you really expect Obama to spend 100% of his political capital to counter that?

As far as the rest of it, yes most Democrats are still pissed off over it. However, on a scale of 1 to 10 it's stayed a 6, while the economic meltdown, job losses, debt default, etc... have all been level 9 or 10, meaning they have to be dealt with first.

The continuation of these policies are in fact part of the reason a number of voters from the base simply didn't turn out to vote in 2010, and look what happened? Most Progressives I know are either going to sit out 2012, (a few) or will hold their nose and vote for Obama (most).

 

[JayHawk]

Oh I agree with what your saying. (somewhat) But whomever is next in office. Whether it is in 12 or 16 will keep doing the same shit. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing so. As soon as any President sees the whole story they will agree.

As far as closing GTMO and moving the wackos to the US. I can see why people were against that idea. Funny thing is the only thing stopping cases from being adjudicated by military courts was the Democrats and now the democrats are adjudicating the folks with military courts. It really is amazingly funny in a perverted way.

I live here in KC right next to Fort Leavenworth. I can see why no one wants to gamble their infrastructure and lives on hosting world terrorist. Some bankrupt town somewhere wanted the job because they had a empty Jail. But politically the state's governor was a Republican so that idea was canned over politics. Shrug. You will never see a President take the oath of office, read the top secret facts of what has been stopped who will then dismantle the policies put into place under GWB. Never.

As far as what would I have had Obama do?

• He could have made this a priority long long ago. He could have presented a plan and then when it was snubbed presented another,
• He could have refused to sign anything into law.
• He can be as big a thorn in the side of the republicans as they are to him.
• He could have been vocal and won America to his side of the cause. His is a very valid side and with the proper delivery MANY Americans would have been swayed and conveyed that to their reps. Instead they got to listen to the republicans tell their story. Now they believe the republicans and anything Obama says is a lie. Or a trick.
• He could have come off the things they just backed away from long ago to demonstrate a willingness to compromise.
• Then present to the American people that this is a grave issue and here is what will happen.
• Then he could point out that the reason we can not pass X Y and Z is because of republican obstruction.
• He could then ask what they are willing to give up or if they are simply going to hold America hostage.
• He could have started with tough real words abut what they are doing so much sooner.
• He could have been vocal but was not. He allowed other members of his party and the media to say those things but he did not.
  

Many times in these threads and on these boards speech's by GWB were ridiculed, his speech was ridiculed, His intelligence questioned. Yet he was continually repeating the same messages and he accomplished what he set out to do.

Obama should be unafraid of criticism and being called whatever and get out there. It would appear his tough words and his demand that this issue not become a distraction for the 2012 election year are very indicative that he was waiting to make it a political issue. That may be a gamble he has lost and all of us lost with him.

 

[JayHawk]

Oh I get that entirely. But it is doing something and you will see on the campaign trail he wont be sitting back hoping everyone gets his message. He will be on point.

 

[BostonPirate]

Doesn't seem to me you really do have that comprehension, jayhawk.

Obama has no partner to run the government. THe Congress has been shackled by the obstruction of the GOP, and it has been noticed by the electorate. All polls clearly show that the american public has caught on.

THe GOP openly declared their only goal legislatively, is to defeat Obama, no matter the cost to the nation.

THey are doing what they planned?

Hey america? how does it feel?

Its time the nation and the voters reward the scum with a reality check.

 

[JayHawk]

I agree Boston Pirate that would be the proper thing for America to do. However the austerity will cause jobless to climb and regardless of who is the real culprit the President gets the blame for the economy. Always has been and always will be.

I also doubt you here these whackos. Like I said in a previous post due to the transient nature of my job I find myself listening to AM radio and these guys are all over it and so are the callers. Nationwide.

SO like normal it will come down to the independant vote.... and this is way too early to predict BUT on this issue as polled recently the I vote is headed away from the POTUS.

A large majority of Democrats (77%) continue to approve of Obama’s job performance while a comparable majority of Republicans disapprove (79%). For the first time in Pew Research Center polling, a majority of independents (54%) disapprove of Obama’s performance. Obama’s approval among independents has slipped to just 36% from 42% last month and a recent high of 52% following the killing of bin Laden.

While everybody shits on Polls Americans hate one thing above all else... not belonging and if the message isnt out there and believed then the swing will go away from Obama.

The only thing saving his POTUS bid in my opinion is the offering on the Republican side of the aisle. If there was a solid opponent I think it would be anybodies game. However right now Obama has the edge based on the same thing in 2008 ... no choice of a viable alternative. And that was a close one until the end.

So I get it. Completely.

You on the other hand as with many others HOPE the american people understand the truth and the truth isn't washed away in one minute sound bites.

 

[BostonPirate]

interesting

you consider right wing radio that screens its calls as a viable way of finding reliable news.

That makes no sense.

 

[BostonPirate]

^I used to think that "a captain's always responsible for his ship." Obama's presidency has changed my mind about all of that.

See, a President is powerless, for the most part, without the Senate and the House. He has a few emergency measures, but little else.

once you get rid of all those illegal signing statements that Bush did, you have one of two choices...

Gridlock or dictator.

America's legislature is shattered, and it was broken by the hands of the tea party, with the GOp as willing participants.

 

[JayHawk]

I have always been of the opinion that the President can do very little for the economy. In fact usually any economic measures that come out of the white house are detrimental to the economy.

The congress setting regulation, taxes and oversight on the other hand thoroughly effect the economy. IMHO whenever we get a long term solution... whatever that solution may be ..then businesses will be able to determine what the bottom line is for running the shop and will expand or contract accordingly.

While everyone likes to marginalize that top 2% who aren't paying taxes and during their argument the key point is that the top do not make jobs. I would agree with that assessment BUT the people making above 250K which typically includes every small business with any employment capability. Those people that are below billionaire and above 250K a year DO create jobs. It goes hand in hand with the middle class spending. The small companies can only offer a product if it is being purchased by the masses and the masses can only purchase a product if they have a job. Nobody except the US government buys shit with no money so in this chicken and egg argument the job has to be created first.

SO give that class of people the bottom line. Whether it be status quo for taxes or raised taxes and they will be able to go forward.

BP I am sure you have a thousand ways you would like to blow this up but basically it is the truth.

Back to Obama. The President has been slipping in approval due to the jobless rate not being altered. If austerity is all that is passed then the jobless rate will necessarily climb thru the roof as public agencies contract. So if that is the case then I see no other outcome than Obama's approval dropping.

SO the bottom line will be if he can transfer successfully the blame to the republican party. It is definitely resounding in the Democratic halls of wisdom. However on the other side they are fully and squarely blaming it on Obama. Even after the cuts affect many of these people there fervent beliefs will cause them to only blame him more.

 

[JayHawk]

Johan I am not against taxing the rich. Please read my words. I know you guys wanna argue against a republican to feel good or whatever.

I do not believe what they tell me. But you do understand taxes are not going to be raised? You do get that right? I think THEY SHOULD BE RAISED. I also think growth will occur whether or not they are raised. Business just needs to know what the future holds. Period. You can not cost a new enterprise without knowing what the cost will be and what the market is projected to be. You need stable policy for that type of projection.

That the major potential roadblock -- the triggers -- are now essentially agreed upon: If the new special deficit reduction committee fails to come up with $1.5 trillion in deficit reductions that passes Congress, spending cuts that hit the Pentagon budget most deeply, as well as Medicare providers (not beneficiaries) and other programs would immediately be triggered.

If the super-committee comes up with some deficit reduction but not $1.5 trillion, the triggers would make up the difference.

So it’s a minimum $2.7 trillion deficit reduction deal. The debt ceiling would be raised by $2.4 trillion in two installments -- $900 billion immediately and $1.5 trillion next year with Congress voting its disapproval or the passage of a Balanced Budget Amendment.

All sides hope this will be enough to convince the markets and ratings agencies that the federal government is serious about deficit reduction –- in order to avoid default.

Both sides will declare victory. Last week the biggest difference between the Boehner and Reid proposals was whether, as the GOP demanded, there would be another debt ceiling vote before the election. That won't happen in this deal.

But Republicans got almost every single other item that they pushed for in this process.

It remains to be seen how House Republicans, who have bucked even Speaker Boehner in the past week, will react to this plan. In order to pass, it will need bipartisan support in both houses of Congress.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/07/debt-ceiling-latest-will-the-rank-and-file-buy-deal.html

The last two are the key items IMHO.

Dems Caving and Tea Party folks saying that Boehner is caving.

They will do the easiest thing they can and cut the Military back so as not to fuck with Grandma too much.

 

[BostonPirate]

the way you prescribe has been proven wrong for the entire last decade.

what I am trying to PRESERVE is the truth, and you are doing your best to distract from that truth.

Lowering taxes and cutting in the extreme ways the GOP has been doing has damaged the economy.

THe numbers are in.

Women are now once again the leading unemployed, due to the deep cuts and layoffs in clerical, nursing, and teaching professions.

The only people who are blaming Obama are the same forty percent that think he is a muslim, that he was not born in america, that OBL is not really dead, and all the rest of the GOP filth.

These people are going to matter little when the other 60 percent blame THEM for voting people in office that fucked the nation.

BTW?

The job creators? those that make between the 250 and one million mark?

They have had the same lowest tax rate in 60 years for about five years now. Where are the jobs the tax cuts created?

COnversely.... When Reagan and Clinton raised taxes during their presidencies, it reduced the unemplyment rates, not raised it.

You have alot of talk radio ideas, but you really are ignoring the facts.

We have tried your prescription and it hasn't worked. Now there will be anger and there will be MORE at the GOP than at Obama.

That means that the Congress will be looking much different in a year. The GOp will have to either give up the Koch brothers cash, or start responding to the wishes of the american voters, who the are CLEARLY ignoring.

 

[JayHawk]

But what you know BP and what the American people believe are obviously two different things.

I understand the facts too... and as stated ad nauseum the tax rate must be raised but it will not be because of the lack of a vocal leader selling that to the american people.

The American people want the top two percent punished with taxes by a huge majority. But they still don't want their taxes raised.

That is the truth regardless of how you spin it.

 

[BostonPirate]

But what you know BP and what the American people believe are obviously two different things.

I understand the facts too... and as stated ad nauseum the tax rate must be raised but it will not be because of the lack of a vocal leader selling that to the american people.

The American people want the top two percent punished with taxes by a huge majority. But they still don't want their taxes raised.

That is the truth regardless of how you spin it.

you are misinformed and incorrect

In the survey, fully six in ten Americans said the wars had contributed "a great deal" to the federal deficit, while an additional 26% said they had contributed a "fair amount." Meanwhile, 42% said the sour economy had a great deal to do with the debt, and 24% said the same about increased spending on domestic programs. Only 19% said tax cuts had greatly impacted the deficit, while an additional 35% said they had contributed a fair amount.

According to the CBPP, the Bush-era tax cuts by far account for the largest share of the federal deficit. Combined with the Iraq and Afghan wars, those policies will make up around 50% of the overall deficit by 2019, according to CBPP's figures.

In a reflection of Americans' perception of how military spending has impacted the debt, the survey also found that 65% of Americans support reducing the nation's overseas military commitments as a way to reduce the deficit, while 30% oppose such a move. Following the death of Osama bin Laden, a bipartisan group of legislators began pushing for a more rapid withdrawal from Afghanistan, though the Obama administration has rebuffed those calls.

Further, the poll also found broad bipartisan support for raising taxes on income earned above $250,000 per year. Two-thirds of Americans (66%) support doing that to reduce the deficit, versus 31% who oppose that idea. Democrats were most favorable toward that plan, with 78% voicing support and just 21% saying the opposite. Independents also strongly backed that proposal, doing so by a 67% to 28% margin. And even Republicans are relatively warm to the idea, with an equal 49% both supporting and opposing a tax increase for high-income earners.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...or-federal-debt-fewest-cite-tax-cuts.php#more

people do WANT their taxes raised, actually

well the real americans who care about this nation do. The rest are the standard GOP base that does as its told, and believes the lies.

 

[JayHawk]

So why then is Obama's approval rating dropping and the Republican Tea Party wing getting all they are demanding in the debt ceiling debate?

 

[JayHawk]

http://www.capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/2292/americans-support-higher-taxes-really

What these polls do not say:
a) "We don't want to pay taxes for more federal employees under any circumstances"
b) "We don't trust our politicians"
c) "We are simply stuck with these programs and their costs now" (Which was the intent of their proponents)
d) "We need to fix (privatize) education and will hold these programs hostage in order to force a change in education."
e) "We need to contract the geographic breadth of our military because we aren't enough of the global economy any longer to subsidize everyone else."
f) "We aren't really happy that we've undermined the cultural homogeneity sufficiently that whites are beginning to act a s a minority and the country is becoming ungovernable which is why people are no longer charitable."
g) "We have no idea how this future is going to play out and we're nervous and confused and demonstrating it by our actions in the economy."

That is their talking points and they are keeping people on their side using them... even the F one which is easily interpreted as racism.

And I got that one wrong on the 250k. I still thoroughly believe what I have been saying. Whether the taxes are raised or not raised business wants to know so they can go forward.

 

[BostonPirate]

So why then is Obama's approval rating dropping and the Republican Tea Party wing getting all they are demanding in the debt ceiling debate?

as we speak, the nation is in crisis and the GOP is filibustering the senate.

Obama may have lost four points in the polls, but that is from his base, not the middle who think he is too easy on the GOP. THose votes are his, even if they dislike his trying to negotiate with the GOP

roughly one in four Americans who disapprove of the president say they feel that way because he's not been liberal enough.
Obama's approval rating among liberals has dropped to 71 percent, the lowest point in his presidency. And the number of Democrats who want the party to renominate Obama next year, now at 77 percent, is relatively robust by historical standards but is also down a bit since June.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...es-obama-approval-rating-down/?iref=allsearch

pair that with these numbers...

A Gallup survey indicates that 41 percent of the public approve of how President Barack Obama's handling the negotiations to raise the nation's debt level, with 52 percent saying they disapprove and eight percent unsure.

According to the poll, only 31 percent approve of how House Speaker John Boehner is handling the negotiations, with 48 percent saying they disapprove of how the top Republican in the House is handling the crisis and just over one in five unsure.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid fares even worse, with just 23 percent giving the top Senate Democrat a positive review, 52 percent disapproving and one in four unsure of how Reid's handling the debt ceiling talks.
"Obama does better than the other two, based in large part on the high approval rating he receives from his fellow Democrats," says a release from Gallup. "Boehner receives significantly less loyalty from Republicans, half of whom approve of his handling of the situation.

so Both sides poll numbers have slid because their OWN party members are sick of their bullshit, and Boehner and the GOP are carrying the brunt of that, I am guessing, due to the fact that they rely on HUGE SENIOR voter support, an have attacked Medicare, instead of trying to fix it, as a philosophical action, when they promised to save it.

That coupled with Boehners see saw Bullshit sessions, his crybaby antics, and his utter mismanagement of the legislature point to an end of his squeakership, and the end of the tea party revolution.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...aders-handling-of-debt-crisis/?iref=allsearch

America now KNOWS BETTER

P.S. you are good at posting interpretations of polls by pundits, but you are shy on actually supplying numbers to back up your ideas.

I don't care about pundits.

 

[JayHawk]

Hasn't America Typically had amazingly low approval ratings for anyone in Congress?

 

[BostonPirate]

Hasn't America Typically had amazingly low approval ratings for anyone in Congress?

thats your answer to the numbers presented that disprove your assertions?

 

[JayHawk]

Which assertion is that?

 

[BostonPirate]

Which assertion is that?

this one...

The American people want the top two percent punished with taxes by a huge majority. But they still don't want their taxes raised.