I am religious and Gay.. how do i survive without sex?

[ludolfo]

Well Ludolfo, religion something i take it very personally it has not imposed on me by culture, otherwise the Pakistani culture does not say anything to me if i have 1 or 10 gay friends or have sex with them. Not even my parents imposed me the religion, the religion thing i take it quite different than my parents because i did my own research on it

My biggest fear if the life after death specially the dark grave.. i dont want that God punish me there for having sex other than my wife. the other fear is HIV but i can care about it... but i cant take away the religious stuff.. i need help badly...

So, I take from this you are a spiritual person?

You say your biggest fear is the life after death, especially the dark grave? Can you explain more what you mean by that--"the dark grave"? Is this some warning in your religion?

I have to be VERY careful what I say on these boards about HIV. Several years ago, in another section of these forums, I tried to start a discussion about the theory that HIV/AIDs is a hoax. I was immediately censored, and the thread was locked. So it was made very clear that discussing the subject and alternative theories about it is taboo. So please people if you read this there is no point going on about it here.
I won't respond, because I like to discuss things freely without the worry of being under threat from being stopped.

 

[*Handsome*]

It doesn't say so in there. Read it through. What you say is not in al-'Insan. Look for it all you want to, but you won't find your words or any validation of those words anywhere in al-'Insan.

Chapter 76 is all about the things going to rewarded in heaven and that young boys stuff is also related to that, does not matter man gone get them or women because in the end we have to understand that there are some things which are Haram to do in this world but they will become Halal in heaven.

Another innovation. The ancients had a strict way of defining what they thought of as a "man." To them, if you were a "passive" homosexual, you were not a man. They thought of you as something different. If you were a man who had sex with a "passive" homosexual, you weren't gay. They didn't see you as such because, the way they saw it, you weren't having sex with someone who was truly considered to be a man. If a man couldn't feel attraction to a woman, he was an "eunuch."

The Vikings had a similar outlook. There was a class of men they called something equivalent to "sissies," who were not thought highly of because they were a very macho culture. However, a guy could have sex with such a person and not be thought "gay" as long as they were the "active" partner. In fact, if you were the "active" partner, you boasted about it. When you get right down to it, it was a form of bullying. Sure, gay people were being treated like shit, but so were women.

The point of bringing up the Vikings is that, in cultures throughout the world, gay people have often had a tough time of it, but for them to be actively persecuted is something that started with the likes of al-Ghazali and Thomas Aquinas. Treating gay people disrespectfully is just one of the natural evils of Mankind, which is an evil that more compassionate individuals try to curb just as they try to curb burglary and unlawful assault.

In Ash-Shuraa 49-50, it is said explicitly that God and only God can decide whether or not you are meant for men or for women. The reason 50 is relevant is that he also decides which women are incapable of child-bearing, and he also decides who is (or isn't) "both male and female," which is to say "androgynous." These two verses are right next to each other: both of them are talking about the diversity of human sexuality that is willed by God.

It's a modern innovation to pretend that gay sex is somehow specially "evil." It's only seen that way by people who think that anything that is "less ordinary" must be bad. It is seen that way by people who think that, just because people like themselves are more common, they must be the most right and proper. They think that, just because they can't understand its utility, it must be "unnatural."

There is no reason for you to go through life feeling ashamed. That is something you choose to do. If you are fortunate enough to ever wake up to that fact, you will realize that you have been a fool.

In Ash-Shuraa 49-50 it is so clear that God give boys and God give daughter and it is His own Wish to give both Boys and daughter.... it does not mean that He give mixture of a boy with boy and girl things its mean that He give boys and girl both. so we can not relate it with gay stuff.

any ways thanks for your all discussion your words has definatly opened some doors which was closed in my brains

have a good day

 

[*Handsome*]

No i am not married, and i can spend my life as unmarried as it is allow in Islam.

Are you married, Handsome? Can you remain un-married?

Just want to let you know that you aren't the only person who has this dilema. I am a Catholic Christian and have had this dilema in my life also. I have come to discount the seriousness of the sin in my mind as not as serious as the church says it is. Also, as a Catholic I can go to confession and profess to be sorry for my sin and to try to not sin again and be forgiven my sins. I also beleive that God will judge me with consideration for my weaknesses. This may not answer your dilema, but wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

@Rickrock, in Islam doing sin in hope that God will forgive you something called bigger sin. Because there is forgivness for those sins about which you dont know for example i have sex with an other man and later i have found that it is sinful then according to Islam there is no punishment for that. But if i have sex and i know that this is wrong as religious point then it would be called sin because i did something which is not allowed to do at a time i know about it

So, I take from this you are a spiritual person?

You say your biggest fear is the life after death, especially the dark grave? Can you explain more what you mean by that--"the dark grave"? Is this some warning in your religion?

I have to be VERY careful what I say on these boards about HIV. Several years ago, in another section of these forums, I tried to start a discussion about the theory that HIV/AIDs is a hoax. I was immediately censored, and the thread was locked. So it was made very clear that discussing the subject and alternative theories about it is taboo. So please people if you read this there is no point going on about it here.
I won't respond, because I like to discuss things freely without the worry of being under threat from being stopped.

Well that HIV stuff can be control as i do not believe on the shit that it has given by God as punishment to gay lolz i know some Chiristans or may be some Muslims says that. But there is no reality about that this is just a man made story.

Well grave was just an example, i am affair about the life after death about which the horrible punishments mentioned if i do sin and as much as i know having sex other than wife is a big sin in Islam

 

[ludolfo]

dont forget my question Handsome

 

[*Handsome*]

dont forget my question Handsome

oh i am so sorry, i think i have missed some thing, could you ask again please

 

[zoltanspawn]

As my understanding of Islam there is nothing wrong to be a gay as long as you have had sex other than your wife. The problem i am suffering from is that if there is nothing wrong to be gay then how would i survive my life without having sex with another man.

It sounds to me as though the nature of the sin you are considering is sex outside of marriage.

I understand that you will not be able to marry a man in the eyes of society, or with the blessing of your community. However, is it possible that someday you might have a relationship with a man that is, for all intents and purposes, a marriage to a man?

If the problem isn't homosexuality, but fidelity, perhaps you might create a devoted relationship in which you do not have sex with anyone but your husband?

 

[ludolfo]

oh i am so sorry, i think i have missed some thing, could you ask again please

Don't worry, I had asked you what your worst fears were, and you had said "the dark grave" so I asked you explain more about that fear, and you say:

Well grave was just an example, i am affair about the life after death about which the horrible punishments mentioned if i do sin and as much as i know having sex other than wife is a big sin in Islam

As I thought, it is the punishment the islamic belief puts in you, like has been the case for Christians----'Hell'. I think it is fruitful to bring this out into the open consciously and express it, because this crap can seriously mess with your mind, and is intended to so that you stick with the belief system.

Are you saying you have a wife?

Do you have sexual feelings for her, or any women? Would you say you are bisexual?

 

[*Handsome*]

It sounds to me as though the nature of the sin you are considering is sex outside of marriage.

I understand that you will not be able to marry a man in the eyes of society, or with the blessing of your community. However, is it possible that someday you might have a relationship with a man that is, for all intents and purposes, a marriage to a man?

If the problem isn't homosexuality, but fidelity, perhaps you might create a devoted relationship in which you do not have sex with anyone but your husband?

Well but i dont think so that it is allow to man to marry another man in Islam at all.. BTW i dont give shit to society as there are some homosexual couples here as i mentioned before that GOv does not said you anything as long as you made your homo marriage or relationship within you

Don't worry, I had asked you what your worst fears were, and you had said "the dark grave" so I asked you explain more about that fear, and you say:



As I thought, it is the punishment the islamic belief puts in you, like has been the case for Christians----'Hell'. I think it is fruitful to bring this out into the open consciously and express it, because this crap can seriously mess with your mind, and is intended to so that you stick with the belief system.

Are you saying you have a wife?

Do you have sexual feelings for her, or any women? Would you say you are bisexual?

no i dont have wife, i am just telling you that sexual relation other than marriage is called sin in Islam and there are some very hard punishment mentioned in this world (by country law) and the punishment after the death.

how would i face the God if i had sex with another man

 

[zoltanspawn]

If there is nothing wrong with being gay in Islam, why should you not marry a man?

(Unofficially, yes, but more importantly for you: in obedience to your faith.)

 

[Telstra]

You must understand this.
The Holy Quran and other holy books are man made. In fact all books and ideas are man made.
If you understand and believe that all are man made, you will solve your problems i think.

Oh, and the idea of "god" is from man, hence god is man made !!!!

 

[Telstra]

Well Ludolfo, religion something i take it very personally it has not imposed on me by culture, otherwise the Pakistani culture does not say anything to me if i have 1 or 10 gay friends or have sex with them. Not even my parents imposed me the religion, the religion thing i take it quite different than my parents because i did my own research on it

My biggest fear if the life after death specially the dark grave.. i dont want that God punish me there for having sex other than my wife. the other fear is HIV but i can care about it... but i cant take away the religious stuff.. i need help badly...

There is your problem.
Can you prove that how god may punish you ?

 

[Telstra]

Just read the whole thread.
It is funny that man made god teaches you how to make yourself more miserable.

 

[ludolfo]

no i dont have wife, i am just telling you that sexual relation other than marriage is called sin in Islam and there are some very hard punishment mentioned in this world (by country law) and the punishment after the death.

how would i face the God if i had sex with another man

OK, I was just trying to get a clearer understanding of your situation. You mean ANY sexual relation other than marriage is a sin in Islam, and especially if it is gay relationship, and that Shariah law is very oppressive, and there is also the fear they tell you will happen after you die if you do not do what they sayyou must.

First off Handsome you MUST take responsibility that you CHOOSE to believe this. That is first step. No one really is forcing you inside but yourself.
I am aware that many children are drilled in these beliefs since being very small and this all becomes internalized, but as you see you are in hell ALREADY aren't you, because you very much would like to have relation with other male.
So this responsibility must then now involve you seeing through this indoctrination.

Have you ever taken psychedelics, or do you know anything about them? I am guessing they are a big sin in your religion?

 

[palbert]

It appears to be a simple choice. Accept the tenets of your religion as you understand them and remain chaste except for marriage and continue your internal torment. Or disavow your religion and accept the internal torment that will cause. There really isn't too much to talk about.

Too many who profess commitment to religion fostered chastity are also looking for ways to cut corners and circumvent the religious convention. You can't have it both ways. You face anguish either way.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Before going to tell about my problem let me have my little bit of introduction.

I am 22 year old from Pakistan. The base of Pakistan law is British law and being Gay in Pakistan is not much difficult as there is no hard law for homosexuality and punish or fine only can be incurred if someone promote homosexuality otherwise Gov does not have any problem with two men having sex in their room, hotel etc.

Well i don't remember when i was become a gay, as much as i remember i am gay from my birth. I have studied Islam and other religion in my school life and got interested to study Quran in detail. I have studied the Holy Quran for 5 years in local "Madrasa" (Islamic school) and also memorized it. As my understanding of Islam there is nothing wrong to be a gay as long as you have had sex other than your wife. The problem i am suffering from is that if there is nothing wrong to be gay then how would i survive my life without having sex with another man. Till now i have met with 2 man (first one 4 year ago and the other one just 3 weeks ago) and we did little bit of oral (touching etc) but my conscience does not allow me to do sex or even oral. I remember how-much guilt i feel the first time i have kissed the other man. I was cried for several week and ask for forgiveness as much as i could but i am a humanbeing and that sex feeling cant be stopped in me which allow me to meet with a man once again. I have found him on dating web and we met. He has taken me to his place and asked for sex but i simply refused because i cant to do.

i am not sure how could i write my problem.. the thing i want to say that i am dying to have gay sex but my conscience does not letting me to do it

First of all you should leave Islam. Islam is a primative sexist and homophobic religion. Any god which would force gays to live a celibate life of sexual deprivation is not a good god as sexual deprivation is not psychologically healthy. Science has debunked Islam's views on homosexuality. Science has shown that homosexuality is a normal and natural biological orientation found in all species as a means to prevent overpopulation. Science, history and anthropology have debunked many ideas espoused by Islam. You should not live a life of misery by depriving yourself of sex, it is not natural and good for you as any psychologist will tell you. Over all you should become an apostate and find a pro gay religion.

 

[Brian Smith]

there are some things which are Haram to do in this world but they will become Halal in heaven.

I doubt you will find anything in your Quran to corroborate that view. If it isn't in the Quran or any related book, it's an innovation. If you can just make up rules or exceptions that have nothing to do with what is in the Quran, they can abolished just as easily. You end up with the Quran having no real authority. You might as well toss it out the window, and let clerics make up laws however it suits them.

In Ash-Shuraa 49-50 it is so clear that God give boys and God give daughter

Actually, I was mistaken in my understanding of those verses. Excuse me.

any ways thanks for your all discussion your words has definatly opened some doors which was closed in my brains

That's what I try for.

 

[Telstra]

It appears to be a simple choice. Accept the tenets of your religion as you understand them and remain chaste except for marriage and continue your internal torment. Or disavow your religion and accept the internal torment that will cause. There really isn't too much to talk about.

Too many who profess commitment to religion fostered chastity are also looking for ways to cut corners and circumvent the religious convention. You can't have it both ways. You face anguish either way.

Yes simple choice with inner struggles because of brain washed by religion.
If Handsome have no sexual desire or feelings,
he might forced his religious views on others.

Not saying him but people like him with no sexual desires will force their views on others to be like them.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Well but i dont think so that it is allow to man to marry another man in Islam at all.. BTW i dont give shit to society as there are some homosexual couples here as i mentioned before that GOv does not said you anything as long as you made your homo marriage or relationship within you



no i dont have wife, i am just telling you that sexual relation other than marriage is called sin in Islam and there are some very hard punishment mentioned in this world (by country law) and the punishment after the death.

how would i face the God if i had sex with another man

No i am not married, and i can spend my life as unmarried as it is allow in Islam.




@Rickrock, in Islam doing sin in hope that God will forgive you something called bigger sin. Because there is forgivness for those sins about which you dont know for example i have sex with an other man and later i have found that it is sinful then according to Islam there is no punishment for that. But if i have sex and i know that this is wrong as religious point then it would be called sin because i did something which is not allowed to do at a time i know about it



Well that HIV stuff can be control as i do not believe on the shit that it has given by God as punishment to gay lolz i know some Chiristans or may be some Muslims says that. But there is no reality about that this is just a man made story.

Well grave was just an example, i am affair about the life after death about which the horrible punishments mentioned if i do sin and as much as i know having sex other than wife is a big sin in Islam

Chapter 76 is all about the things going to rewarded in heaven and that young boys stuff is also related to that, does not matter man gone get them or women because in the end we have to understand that there are some things which are Haram to do in this world but they will become Halal in heaven.



In Ash-Shuraa 49-50 it is so clear that God give boys and God give daughter and it is His own Wish to give both Boys and daughter.... it does not mean that He give mixture of a boy with boy and girl things its mean that He give boys and girl both. so we can not relate it with gay stuff.

any ways thanks for your all discussion your words has definatly opened some doors which was closed in my brains

have a good day

Just want to let you know that you aren't the only person who has this dilema. I am a Catholic Christian and have had this dilema in my life also. I have come to discount the seriousness of the sin in my mind as not as serious as the church says it is. Also, as a Catholic I can go to confession and profess to be sorry for my sin and to try to not sin again and be forgiven my sins. I also beleive that God will judge me with consideration for my weaknesses. This may not answer your dilema, but wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

Well Ludolfo, religion something i take it very personally it has not imposed on me by culture, otherwise the Pakistani culture does not say anything to me if i have 1 or 10 gay friends or have sex with them. Not even my parents imposed me the religion, the religion thing i take it quite different than my parents because i did my own research on it

My biggest fear if the life after death specially the dark grave.. i dont want that God punish me there for having sex other than my wife. the other fear is HIV but i can care about it... but i cant take away the religious stuff.. i need help badly...

So long as you use protection there is no need to fear HIV. Further more you should not fear the imaginary Allah because he dosen't exist and any god that would punish you merely for exorcising your natural sexuality is not a good god but a dictatorial monster that should be fought against. Over all I maintain that you should leave Islam because it's views on homosexuality are wrong and debunked by modern science and psychology. Plus it is not healthy to live a life of sexual deprivation.

Lolz i was not forced to be in Madrasa, actually my family was not in support that i go to madrasa to learn Quran, thats why they put me in a school who also teach Quran (because i forced them) i have interest to go to Madrasa because some of my friend did, otherwise my family did not happy ever that i go there where the student of all kind came.. so just remove that thing that i have ever forced for some thing and guess what, if i told my family that i am a Gay then i am 99% sure they will not have any problem with it as my father use to support such kind of TV shows when people talk about homosexual people or those who changed their gender

that religious stuff is purly to me because i am so near to religion and thats why i am here to ask for help!

If the religious stuff is purely your issue then the only way to deal with it is to leave your religion. There are many pro gay religions out there and why would you want to be apart of a sexist, racist, homophobic cult that encourages violence against disbelievers and many barbaric practices. It is really simple, you can't change being gay but you can change your religion.

Well Smith thanks for all of your words but that verse of Quran which you have mention 76:19 is belong to women where man got hoor (young women) and women will get those boys.. second if we start beliving that it has mentioned for man then still we can not use to accept gay, because God has promissed about alcohol in heaven but made it haram in this world and there are some other things too..

The people who was born as unknown sexual appearance (or you can say hermaphrodite) has very importance value in Islam. According to Islamic teaching they should be respect and got all the equal right and they have right to choose to live as man or women. but i think gay stuff is quit different than hermaphrodite, because i know i am a man or liking another man does not make me "hermaphrodite"

Next in actuality it dosen't say that women get those boys. Men get both the boys and the girls. Women really don't get shit in the Islamic paradise except being devoted to their husbands. Hell in Islam the Hadith says that the majority of Hell's inhabitants are women.

You Abrahamics need to realize that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. Science and psychology shows that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and to live a life of sexual deprivation of not healthy. Really all gay Abrahamics should leave these religions.

First of all the idea that some things are halal in Heaven but haram on earth is illogical. Either something is right all of the time or it is not. Really Mohammad only did this because he wanted to make it so that people live deprived lives on Earth waiting for Heaven where they will let loose instead of living their lives and doing what they wish here. It is the ultimate scam really.

Also one more thing Muslim men are allowed to have sex with women who are not their wives such as concubines and captures slaves of war and are allowed to rape captured women which is immoral. However being gay is not immoral so it just shows that Islam got these ideas wrong.

Again the fact that Islam would allow pedophilia as well as sex with slaves and captured women but not gay sex shows the depravity of Islam. You should not worship a god that does not allow you to express your sexuality and if hypothetically this evil god did exist then he should be fought against and hopefully killed not worshipped. Islam is wrong about homosexuality which is why you should leave it.

 

[Brian Smith]

Well, I used to be religious, and you guys really have to understand that God is very real to people who were raised very religious. Hell is very real to someone who had a fundamentalist upbringing.

The way Pentacostals say their dinner prayer is to talk as if God is in the room with them. They aren't acting: they actually have a circuit in their brains that fires up when they do their dinner prayer, so they feel the presence of God in the same way that...

Okay, try walking around your house with your eyes closed. It's easy enough to do. When you come up on a place where you know there is a piece of furniture that is always in the same place, it's almost like you can feel it there. It's not something that you feel physically, but you have the feeling of it being there because you KNOW it's there.

And the way people like that can actually genuinely believe that God is there, in actual fact, is similar. To them, they can't possibly believe that God is not there because, to them, he's there every day. You can call it a delusion however much you want to, but it's really drilled into them so deeply that you are wasting your breath.

The only thing that I have ever heard of curing people of religion is for them to have an awakening to become more educated about their religion. For them to take time to read and understand their religious scriptures helps them learn how wrong most people are about them. That's one of the great ironies of religion: the religious claim that these scriptures are the most sacred and important things in their lives, yet very few of them actually sit down to read them. If it doesn't cure them of religion, it will at the very least lead to them being more responsible citizens and more enlightened individuals. In many cases, their religion hangs itself in its own noose, but whether this happens or not is up to the individual.

The reason this works is that they learn that the religion they have always had is not like the one in the book. If they accept that the scriptures contain the authentic religion, they have to leave the religion they grew up with to assume it. It often just makes more sense to leave the religion and become an atheist, though.

If you are trying to preach to them about science and reason, though, you are wasting your time.

 

[ludolfo]

Hey Handsome, hope all these different views hasn't intimidated you...?