I can't get religious gay people!

[Kulindahr]

I hate religion all together! Some of the problems in the world is because of that shit!

Don't stop there -- hate people! all people!

After all, people are the reason for just about all the problems of the world.

 

[Kulindahr]

The thing that bothers me about religious people is that they pick and choose what the want to believe to fit their lifestyle and the belief system is perpetuated from generation to generation. This wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the majority didn't try to force their belief ( that cannot be accepted as evidence ) in the education system, or the judicial system, etc... Religion has been the cause of hate and marginalization of many groups of people and is the reason why homophobia is so widespread in the world, even in the USA.

The "pick and choose" folks were actually warned about in the New Testament. They tend to be the biggest asses possible but think they're perfect.

Point of information: a majority of people of faith don't try to "force their belief" anywhere. They may tell you about it, might start their own school, but that's about it.

And to be accurate, religion has been the tool of hate, etc., not so often the cause. Most hatred exercised in the name of religion would have been there anyway -- they just grab religion to justify it. Since most of that hate, etc. is contrary to the plain teachings of the religion, it's hardly caused by it -- just justified.

 

[Quantumreading]

From all the science I knew I decided the evidence pointed to the probability of a Creator. So I asked myself what would be expected of one if he/she/it were to communicate with his/her/its creatures. Then I looked around to see what fit.

Since becoming a Christian, I've seen evidence I can't reasonably explain otherwise.

How does this evidence which you learned from science point to the possibility to a creator? To most scientists who study these things, it doesn't point to whether there is a creator or not. It simply doesn't answer that either way.

"Logically"? Logically, no position on God's existence can be preferred above another.

The moments when I've felt God has communicated with me haven't always been something I would qualify as "someone ... there for [me]".

Definition of LOGIC

(1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration

You cannot "demonstrate" the existence of a higher power.

Also, I've felt some pretty amazing things in my life. Things that made me so happy, and so loved that it's incomprehensible. However, I don't go saying it was something supernatural. Why would you, anyway? It is far more possible that it was your body producing chemicals to cope with a situation.

There's no such thing as "pure evidence", at least for meaning.

For why I still believe -- see my first answer above; but also because the more I learn, the more sense it makes of the world.

Again, the more you educate yourself (which you apparently claim you are), it's normal to grow apart from religion and accept that it's most likely not true. Many religious scientists find it difficult to believe in their faith the more they learn about the universe. I'm all for being a minority, I am one myself. However, when it comes to increasing your faith by learning science, you're simply being ignorant.

 

[Quantumreading]

The "pick and choose" folks were actually warned about in the New Testament. They tend to be the biggest asses possible but think they're perfect.

Yet you pick and choose to not believe that you should be put to death for being gay, which the Bible clearly states.

 

[Kulindahr]

Maybe I see things differently, but spirituality and religion don't induce guilt. People do. I don't feel slightly guilty about me or my life. I'll stand before God come judgement day alongside a "christian" and take my chances.

There's a superb point, about guilt. I learned from a Lutheran pastor/priest that if we feel guilty, we should turn to God, but remember all the time that a great deal of the time we only feel guilty because some other person made us feel guilty, or we ourselves did, but not God.

 

[bort138]

The world would be a lot better if people continued living their lives on faith based superstitions that prevent society from progressing and understanding the world around them....

But religion is good because it controls people and maintains order. If nobody believed in god and followed their fairy tales, the world would be in shambles and society would be doomed because there would be no morality. Religion is good because it gives us all the easy answers and tells us exactly what we want to hear. Why accept reality when fantasy is so much easier.

 

[ZmercTheDuke]

I dont mind them, there just usually not up for drinking, or going to the bars, and have high morals. To each their own cheers.

 

[Kyanimal]

"God" is US, and WE are "Him", Collectively! "In HIS Image"!

 

[Kulindahr]

How does this evidence which you learned from science point to the possibility to a creator? To most scientists who study these things, it doesn't point to whether there is a creator or not. It simply doesn't answer that either way.

As Milo in Bloom County put it, everything is just a little to orderly to just be an accident. In college, I was hardly alone in that; we had an Intelligent Design group, all people who had come to faith because of science -- Christian, Buddhist, theist, deist, some agnostic.

Definition of LOGIC

(1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration

You cannot "demonstrate" the existence of a higher power.

Exactly -- logically, no position on God's existence can be preferred above another.

Also, I've felt some pretty amazing things in my life. Things that made me so happy, and so loved that it's incomprehensible. However, I don't go saying it was something supernatural. Why would you, anyway? It is far more possible that it was your body producing chemicals to cope with a situation.

Why would my body produce chemicals to smash a feeling of joy?

Again, the more you educate yourself (which you apparently claim you are), it's normal to grow apart from religion and accept that it's most likely not true. Many religious scientists find it difficult to believe in their faith the more they learn about the universe. I'm all for being a minority, I am one myself. However, when it comes to increasing your faith by learning science, you're simply being ignorant.

Most of the science professors I've ever had, including at the graduate level, were believers. Every one of them testified that the more science they knew, the deeper it made their faith. And I saw a good dozen people in college come to faith or return to it because of their science studies.

I'd be careful with that last claim, BTW -- there are thousands upon thousands of Jesuits who are scientists whose faith increases from learning more science, and they can hardly be called "ignorant" -- consider one I met in St. Louis, who had a doctorate in languages (he was fluent in German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Latin, Greek, and a whole bunch more) and a doctorate in physics, and was working on one in astronomy. He also had a doctorate in theology. He picked up the one in languages because both theology and science have been done in a large batch of languages, and he wanted to read Aristotle, Pythagoras, Brahe, and the rest in the originals.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yet you pick and choose to not believe that you should be put to death for being gay, which the Bible clearly states.

You've read that in the original Hebrew? and in the ancient Greek translation? after, of course, lengthy study in the culture and literary types of the times?

 

[Kulindahr]

The world would be a lot better if people continued living their lives on faith based superstitions that prevent society from progressing and understanding the world around them....

But religion is good because it controls people and maintains order. If nobody believed in god and followed their fairy tales, the world would be in shambles and society would be doomed because there would be no morality. Religion is good because it gives us all the easy answers and tells us exactly what we want to hear. Why accept reality when fantasy is so much easier.

What the frak religion are you talking about? It's certainly not Christianity.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't mind them, there just usually not up for drinking, or going to the bars, and have high morals. To each their own cheers.

Pittsburgh is kinda far, or I'd say I'll join you at a bar. I might even be persuaded to dance.

 

[bort138]

What the frak religion are you talking about? It's certainly not Christianity.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well, that's an intelligent reply.

 

[oakpope]

I'm interested in an approach to the problem that would be viewed as legitimate by believers and non-believers (or, say, you and I) which would thus allow at least one of us to change his mind.

what is it about testimony that permits you to conclude it is reliable instead of concluding as I do that it is generally woefully inadequate.

*that is to say: Would you accept evidence for the reality of the divine if you had the opportunity to ask questions about the quality of the evidence, how exactly something constitutes evidence, how it supports the idea of divinity, and receive reasoned answers?

There is no evidence, in a scientific way, of the existence of God. There is no evidence of the non existence of God. Nobody can show anybody a proof of existence and nobody can show anybody a proof of non existence. And I don't think we will ever have, because it will nullifies what is of the utmost importance to God and sense of Human life in my opinion : free will.

Why have I Faith ? It's the only question that makes sense to me.
I have Faith because I feel God. In me, in others, in friends, in enemies, in the Earth. When I pray, when I thank Him for all the marvelous things that exists, that He allowed he universe to exist, that He gave us life, and free will to do what we want even if that bring pain to Him. I have Faith when I'm in a bus and that I would like all the passengers to be happy, I would like to kiss and hug all of them, because I'm at peace when I think of Him and the joy I have when I feel His love and the love I have for Him. When I think of all the pain He suffer from our evil actions just so we can live freely and choose Him freely or renounce Him freely. When I know that He will welcome anybody of good heart, whether that person be Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Jew or Christian, or Pagan or whatever.

I can not prove to anybody that I'm right, I can only tell other of my experiences, of what I felt why I made my first communion, the link I sensed deep inside me, the dialog I have with Him.

I respect absolutely the opinions of others, who can think I'm delusional.But they don't know what I feel. They can only presume.

From a mathematical logical point of view, the fact that no proof of existence or non existence can be had, lead to agnosticism, or the opinion of "I don't know".

Religions, believing in existence of God(s)/Superior Power/Sentient Energy/etc. is Faith. Atheism, or the belief that no God(s) or Superior Power etc, exist, is also a Faith because it's also based only on conviction, opinion and not on proof.

It's very important that we all can be tolerant of the others opinions, whatever they may be, at least as long as they don't hurt anyone.

 

[oakpope]

Again, the more you educate yourself (which you apparently claim you are), it's normal to grow apart from religion and accept that it's most likely not true. Many religious scientists find it difficult to believe in their faith the more they learn about the universe. I'm all for being a minority, I am one myself. However, when it comes to increasing your faith by learning science, you're simply being ignorant.

I can't tell you how arrogant that sounds. You're 18 years old, aren't you ?
I'm 43, a degree in nuclear physics, I work in a field where there is only logical things (computer sciences), I asked my parents to baptized me at 7, I have had to study religion for 2 years after that to demonstrate my will and my understanding of what I asked, I studied after hour religion until senior high school. I had major grades in scientific fields and mathematics and literature, philosophy, geography and history. Not once have I felt a contradiction between my faith and what I learned. It's another dimension of humanity. At 18, I'm sorry to tell you but there is lot an lot of things you have yet to learn. I'm learning everyday how little I know, but it's in no way of form a contradiction with my faith.

You can call me ignorant, stupid even if you don't know me, I will not do the same for you, just that maybe you should think there is more than Reason in this world
because Reason can only envisage Reason. I advice you to read books written by great scientific minds who have Faith. Maybe you could understand a little what it may be.

 

[oakpope]

Originally Posted by bankside View Post
I'm interested in an approach to the problem that would be viewed as legitimate by believers and non-believers (or, say, you and I) which would thus allow at least one of us to change his mind.

To answer this : my faith is as natural for me than being gay. But I never had sex with a man. Does it make me delusional that I'm gay because I have no proof, but the feelings that I have inside of me ?

 

[chrisw87]

@ Oakpope;

I never knew that was your profession, and congrats at getting that far. I personally never had the dedication to travel that far in my studies. If i had the mental stamina to actually study mathematics higher I would love to look at physics.

I still have an obsession with watching documentaries on youtube via the history channel or discovery, mostly on basic physics and then the fun of quantum physics.

It may be a side task for myself to study the basics and maybe rehash my old math and science textbooks. To me still, from my extremely limited knowledge, quantum physics is awesome, merely from a standpoint where it seems everything is only theoretical with no evidence (or so I understand until we possibly make newer discoveries in that field to reconcile them with the standard laws that everybody has heard of in some form or another). Much like having faith but in a science setting, and more amusing names.

 

[youfiad]

I can't tell you how arrogant that sounds. You're 18 years old, aren't you ?
I'm 43, a degree in nuclear physics, I work in a field where there is only logical things (computer sciences), I asked my parents to baptized me at 7, I have had to study religion for 2 years after that to demonstrate my will and my understanding of what I asked, I studied after hour religion until senior high school. I had major grades in scientific fields and mathematics and literature, philosophy, geography and history. Not once have I felt a contradiction between my faith and what I learned. It's another dimension of humanity. At 18, I'm sorry to tell you but there is lot an lot of things you have yet to learn. I'm learning everyday how little I know, but it's in no way of form a contradiction with my faith.

You can call me ignorant, stupid even if you don't know me, I will not do the same for you, just that maybe you should think there is more than Reason in this world
because Reason can only envisage Reason. I advice you to read books written by great scientific minds who have Faith. Maybe you could understand a little what it may be.

Although having faith doesn't necessarily entail that you live a life of contradictions, certain dogmas do. I don't know what you personally believe, but if you are truly a science person, as you claim, you at least have the intelligence to recognize that your faith is not backed by evidence.

Also, I must point out that a degree in a fieldl of study doesn't mean that somebody is logical. I know many computer science, physicists, mathmaticians, etc, who still ask me questions about things that I, and many of my friends, find trivial. People have found a way to dislocate their logic that they use for studies or work from logic in everyday life.

 

[youfiad]

Especially in 'HOT TOPICS'.

I don't care if he talk to me, but I'm sure it goes against the rules to lie abaout me to other people and to use slander. He twists my words and misrepresents my arguments. That's what I am asking for him to stop. If he wants to reply directly to me, then I welcome him to do that, but I will not reply to him seeing as though I get nowhere with him.