I had a conversation with islamophobic schoolboys yesterday

[Rali_hates_Mondays]

Well it wasn't all conversation. It was more like half debating and the other half, me trying to figure out how serious their islamophobia was.

We were just having a conversation about the burden of work when one of the guys started talking about the situation in Iraq. He made an anti-Islam joke, which he says all the time and he makes similar jokes about the French as well (typical englishman). However I decided to take this beyond and had a debate over Iraq, whether it was moral, bla bla bla. Then we quickly moved on to the subject of Islam and the guy was joined by another guy who held similar prejudiced views about Islam being evil, Islam being the only religion that glorified suicide bombing, criticising the Koran and criticising the moderate muslims for not condemning those extremists and fundamentalists. I retaliated with the Bible being just as flawed as well, the threat of the Christian far right in America, the troubles with intepretation of old religious texts and the fact that you cannot blur the line between Islam and the actions of a few terrorists. They seemed like typical tory public scoolboys but it got worse.

I asked their opinion over what should be the solution. One guy simply said that the whole of the middle east should be bombed and for Islam to be ended. I then tried to put words into his mouth.

"So there should be another Holocaust... but for muslims??" I said,
"yes" he replied.

The end didn't sound like a joke unfortunately. Though he may have said it in casually. But the other guy agreed with him. I was a bit lost for words and perhaps a little angry with myself that I didn't slam them for their opinions.

 

[Nonimus]

Yep - people are willing for it to happen again. What happened to the Jews was by no means a one off - and the same kind of crazed-fear that the Jews were 'out to get them' prevailed then, and one crazed man did all that.

The same kind of climate of fear is escalating now, and when you see things like 7/7 or 9/11 it invokes the most terrible rage inside. There is a problem, a huge problem - but holocaust is more insane than any "bomb-on-a-plane" plot.

But i do wonder how willing those guys would be to allow it to happen if they saw it in its true horror?

 

[Andreus]

Islamophobia is everpresent and frightening.

I am always startled by it.

Sadly

it happens very often, even here, and most people either rationalize it, turn a blind eye to it, or become numb to it. I'd imagine that is how it happened in germany as well to enable the holocaust there to happen. Germans couldn't believe that Hitler was really killing all those people. They really thought that his hate rhetoric was rooted in logicall political posture and supported the deportation process without realizing they were supporting gas chambers. People simply refuse to believe that their words and actions can make kids like those you mentioned believe that such things are appropriate.

the truth is, they learned it somewhere. Even Hitler was led to believe that his ultimate solution was appropriate because so many of his countrymen agreed with his xenophobic hatred. If they had realized fully what they were supporting I wonder if they would have still supported him.

My heart wants to tell me that they would not have.

When good people surrender to fear, they lose their ability to reason. they turn their lives over to thugs who seem powerfull enough to protect them. But when you give that kind of power to men, they rarely use it responsibly.

that is the lesson of human history.

You cannot put out a fire with gasoline. You cannot freeze water with fire. you cannot move if you never take a step. you cannot save life by taking life. You cannot end hate by hating.

I hope that people evolve one day and realize these things.

 

[sb]

They don't know any better. It would be hard to expect a group of schoolboys who have very little life experience to have anything positive to say about Islam and the Middle East when all they would hear from the media etc is how bad it is.

 

[Sangshao]

Every time a terrorist blows something up and its linked to some random Islamic revolutionary group we get the same asinine, yet obligatory, media handwringing about how this "unfortunate act" is going to spur hatred against muslims. I'm more worried about the "unfortunate acts" then about how this or that grouping is going to be harrassed or socially inconvenienced.

The whole "Islamophobia" crisis is bunk. People might be prejudiced and bigoted, especially rhetorically, but it's really just not anywhere near as big of a deal as the behavior which spurs it in the first place. The whole 'crisis' is a joke to people who've faced a lifetime of prejudice or persecution based on merely being born rather than any doctrine they believe or adhere to.

The main issue is how do we keep Islamic religious extremists from murdering people, not how do we keep everyday people from having irrational responses to those murders. Humans are animals, the best way to avoid a response to stimuli(fear and avoidance), is to remove the stimuli. It's not to call them irrational and say, "You shouldn't react or think that way". They may or may not be irrational but simply saying so and chiding them for it, isn't going to do much good in the face of constant provocation.

 

[Andreus]

it is only a joke if you are not the one at the recieving end of the hate.

madmen are madmen.

I do not blame christianity for george bush's wars even though he says that his spiritual beliefs giude his choices.

Simply put.... a christian would not kill so many and torture so many. So he is not a christian, and no ammount of personal proffesion can convince me otherwise. I simply will not allow myself to hate all people of a faith because of a few megalmaniacs with bombs.

Similarly.... anyone who blames Islam for the warped ideas of the extremists is failing to see the true remedy. By blaming the belief system of people like Osama and Zarqaawi they are allowing these madmen to put the blinders on their eyes that will give them the most power.

they are radical millitants and their actions do not fit into the belief system they profess. Hundreds of Fatwas have been issued globaly stating as much. The Radical terrorist elements of the Mid east need to be reacted to as any other organized crime syndicate has been.

Isolate, seize assets, disempower, pull them onto a playing feild that they cannot win on, and demote their power int he minds of the population and decrease the fear they create.

To exist in a state of fear and to use the politics of fear is to giv ethem everythign they seek.

When they are demoted to garden variety guerilla oportunists and third world mafia lords, then the threat they present can be addressed and eradicated. Until then, we are giving them the power to divide us that they hope to have.

 

[andyspete]

Every time a terrorist blows something up and its linked to some random Islamic revolutionary group we get the same asinine, yet obligatory, media handwringing about how this "unfortunate act" is going to spur hatred against muslims. I'm more worried about the "unfortunate acts" then about how this or that grouping is going to be harrassed or socially inconvenienced.

The whole "Islamophobia" crisis is bunk. People might be prejudiced and bigoted, especially rhetorically, but it's really just not anywhere near as big of a deal as the behavior which spurs it in the first place. The whole 'crisis' is a joke to people who've faced a lifetime of prejudice or persecution based on merely being born rather than any doctrine they believe or adhere to.

The main issue is how do we keep Islamic religious extremists from murdering people, not how do we keep everyday people from having irrational responses to those murders. Humans are animals, the best way to avoid a response to stimuli(fear and avoidance), is to remove the stimuli. It's not to call them irrational and say, "You shouldn't react or think that way". They may or may not be irrational but simply saying so and chiding them for it, isn't going to do much good in the face of constant provocation.

I agree with your comments. There has got to be a solution to breaking through these extremists' crazed mindsets. I don't understand why it's so hard to agree to disagree. That may sound trite but it's so simple and would work. Ok, so we don't agree on something. Fine. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. No harm done. One of the main problems is that they truly believe that they're supposed to kill people who don't share their hardcore extremist faith. And that is a bitch of a mindset to turn around. Just my 2 cents worth here. I hope we as a society can come up with a solution to this before it's too late.

 

[Andreus]

A breif lesson from History...

the words of George Wallace...

1958 (from the first gubernatorial campaign)

"During the next four years, many problems will arise in the matter of segregation and civil rights, as a result of judicial decisions. Having served as judge of the third judicial circuit of Alabama, I feel, my friends, that this judicial experience, will be invaluable to me as your governor.… And I want to tell the good people of this state, as a judge of the third judicial circuit, if I didn’t have what it took to treat a man fair, regardless of his color, then I don’t have what it takes to be the governor of your great state."

"I advocate hatred of no man, because hate will only compound the problems facing the South."

1958 (said in private to Seymore Trammell, Wallace's finance director, following his unsuccessful first run for governor against John Patterson)

"I was out-niggered, and I will never be out-niggered again."

1959 (proclaiming his new hard-line segregationist views)

"There’s some people who’ve gone over the state and said, ‘Well, George Wallace has talked too strong about segregation.’ Now let me ask you this: how in the name of common sense can you be too strong about it? You’re either for it or you’re against it. There’s not any middle ground as I know of."


1963 (from his inaugural speech, first term as governor)

"It is very appropriate that from this cradle of the Confederacy, this very heart of the great Anglo-Saxon Southland, that today we sound the drum for freedom as have our generations of forebears before us time and again down through history. Let us rise to the call for freedom-loving blood that is in us and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South. In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

1963 (at the University of Alabama-Tuscaloosa, during his stand to bar integration)

"The unwelcomed, unwanted, unwarranted, and force-induced intrusion upon the campus of the University of Alabama today of the might of the central government offers frightful example of the oppression of the rights, privileges and sovereignty of this state by officers of the federal government."

1963 (addressing race issues through "code words")

"This civil rights bill will wind up putting a homeowner in jail because he doesn’t sell his home to someone that some bureaucrat thinks he ought to sell it to. My friends, a man’s home is his castle…and he ought to be able to sell it to people with blue eyes and green teeth if he wants to; it’s his home."

1964 (from "U.S. News & World Report")

"A racist is one who despises someone because of his color, and an Alabama segregationist is one who conscientiously believes that it is in the best interest of Negro and white to have a separate education and social order."

May 1964 (speaking to an audience at Johns Hopkins)

"Nobody in Alabama gets anywhere if he slants an election campaign to the racial issue."

1966 (moving the focus from race to other threats)

"We’ll use the power and prestige of the governor’s office to try to awaken the American people to the trends that are rampant in our country, a trend that says we must fight the Communists in Vietnam while at the same time the Communist-controlled beatnik mobs in the streets influence national affairs in Washington, D.C."

1967

"I have never made a derogatory remark about one of God’s children and I never will. If I am elected, I am going to treat all fairly."

1968 (while running as a third-party candidate)

"And it is a sad day in our country that you cannot walk even in your neighborhoods at night or even in the daytime because both national parties, in the last number of years, have kowtowed to every group of anarchists that have roamed the streets of San Francisco and Los Angeles and throughout the country. And now they have created themselves a Frankenstein monster, and the chickens are coming home to roost all over this country." "Yes, they’ve looked down their nose at you and me a long time. They’ve called us rednecks -- the Republicans and the Democrats. Well, we’re going to show, there sure are a lot of rednecks in this country."

1970 (back to race as an overt issue)

"There’s no reason to let any one group call all the shots in this state. And you know the militant black bloc vote in this state, if they take over, it’s going to control politics for the next 50 years in Alabama, and I know you are not going to let that happen."

It took america a few decades to wake up, but it did.

I believe in the goodness of man and I believe that one day he will wake up again when the politics of hate are taken away once more and exposed for what they are.

I have to believe in these things.

the alternative takes the human race to a dark place that I do not think we can survive.

 

[Sangshao]

it is only a joke if you are not the one at the recieving end of the hate.

madmen are madmen.

I do not blame christianity for george bush's wars even though he says that his spiritual beliefs giude his choices.

Simply put.... a christian would not kill so many and torture so many. So he is not a christian, and no ammount of personal proffesion can convince me otherwise. I simply will not allow myself to hate all people of a faith because of a few megalmaniacs with bombs.

Similarly.... anyone who blames Islam for the warped ideas of the extremists is failing to see the true remedy. By blaming the belief system of people like Osama and Zarqaawi they are allowing these madmen to put the blinders on their eyes that will give them the most power.

they are radical millitants and their actions do not fit into the belief system they profess. Hundreds of Fatwas have been issued globaly stating as much. The Radical terrorist elements of the Mid east need to be reacted to as any other organized crime syndicate has been.

Isolate, seize assets, disempower, pull them onto a playing feild that they cannot win on, and demote their power int he minds of the population and decrease the fear they create.

To exist in a state of fear and to use the politics of fear is to giv ethem everythign they seek.

When they are demoted to garden variety guerilla oportunists and third world mafia lords, then the threat they present can be addressed and eradicated. Until then, we are giving them the power to divide us that they hope to have.

I think it's a bit idealistic to assume that the fault for corrupt behavior is always within an isolated group of people rather than a belief system as a whole. There's no reason to presume that any religion is benevolent just because it's a religion. There's no reason to believe a religion can't be just as corrupt or corruptible as any other philosophy or belief system. But, regardless of any of that, merely arguing that people are responding irrationally is not going to have any effect on them if they continue to face the same threats from the same group of people. Trying to change how a creature will react to something is far more difficult than than removing the stimulus provoking the reaction. Respect for Muslims and Islam will continue to decline if terrorists continue to kill in the name of Islam. It doesn't really matter if more liberal and moderate muslims don't consider the terrorists "true" muslims. It might not be fair, but fear of Islam will persist as long as Islamic based terrorism does. The best way to avoid fear is to eliminate threats.

 

[Andreus]

i respectfully disagree

a belief system cannot take action. A man can wield a gun, though.

hitler's only professed goal was to eliminate the threats.

once again...

the creation of fear does not decrease fear, it amplifies the fear that already exists. Engaging in violence makes a more violent world, not a more peacefull one. These basic thought flaws are the core problem with both sides of this war right now... they both believe that violence will eventually lead to attaining the world that they would create and controll.

but

you have the right to believe anything you want

I only pray that one day you will see that even the Japanese in america were rounded up and sent to concentration camps in America during world war two because it was "Better to eliminate any posible threats" to the nation than to risk the freedom of a few good people. It turns out that there really werent any threats in that group of people and many were harmed and died because of fear and fear alone. those concentration camps did not undo Pearl Harbor, it only made two groups instead of one harmed by the decisions of an overly agessive regime in Japan.

you just cant categorize people and stereotype them without violating their civil rights.

in time we will move beyond this.

I have no doubt.

 

[glo-unit]

If you think Islamophobia is BS your just naive, not to long after 9/11 a man who was working at a 7/11 was murdered for wearing a turban, he wasn't even from the middle east he was from India. Others have also been attacked for being Muslim or looking Muslim. BTW this is in Phoenix, Arizona which is on the other side of the country. My sisters BF was in NYC at the time of 9/11 and told me multiple stories of people who were Muslim or just looked Muslim being murdered after it occurred. And some people are stupid enough to say that there should be a 2nd Holocaust for Muslims and I'm supposed to believe it's all in their heads, yeah fucking right. I know the threat of islamophobia is less than the threat of extremist Muslim terrorist but to ignore it and act like it doesn't exist is both stupid and disgusting.

 

[Croynan]

it is only a joke if you are not the one at the recieving end of the hate.

madmen are madmen.

I do not blame christianity for george bush's wars even though he says that his spiritual beliefs giude his choices.

Simply put.... a christian would not kill so many and torture so many. So he is not a christian, and no ammount of personal proffesion can convince me otherwise. I simply will not allow myself to hate all people of a faith because of a few megalmaniacs with bombs.

Similarly.... anyone who blames Islam for the warped ideas of the extremists is failing to see the true remedy. By blaming the belief system of people like Osama and Zarqaawi they are allowing these madmen to put the blinders on their eyes that will give them the most power.

they are radical millitants and their actions do not fit into the belief system they profess. Hundreds of Fatwas have been issued globaly stating as much. The Radical terrorist elements of the Mid east need to be reacted to as any other organized crime syndicate has been.

Isolate, seize assets, disempower, pull them onto a playing feild that they cannot win on, and demote their power int he minds of the population and decrease the fear they create.

To exist in a state of fear and to use the politics of fear is to giv ethem everythign they seek.

When they are demoted to garden variety guerilla oportunists and third world mafia lords, then the threat they present can be addressed and eradicated. Until then, we are giving them the power to divide us that they hope to have.

Very insightful comments. Thank you for posting them.



eM.

 

[bma1983]

Those school kids need someone to educate them. There hate for Muslims is no different than those Muslims who wish to do them harm.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Islamophobia is BS or isn’t present. It is. But the fact is you can’t expect people to not fear Islam when a bunch of insane animals are killing people in the name of Muhammad. There are over one billion Muslims in this world. How many mass protests have there been from Muslims protesting against terrorist acts in the name of Islam? I haven’t seen any. If there have been, please tell me. How many clerics are going out and condemning these acts, not just in the mosques, but also on the streets? I haven’t seen any. All I see is mass protests over supposed insults to Muhammad. What are your priorities, insults to Muhammad, or animals hijacking your religion?

I in no way believe that the acts of terrorists represent Islam. But is Islam purging itself to get rid of those who are placing their faith in a bad name?

 

[Andreus]

and what is christianity doing to purge itself of george bush? Or pat roberston? or jerry fallwell? or the crusades? or the spanish inquisition?

and how do you think that refering to my people as animals can be considered apropriate or will engender understanding in any way?

I have no quarrel with you. I know you are the product of a culture that is in the grips of fear and anger. I just want you to see that you are speaking in double talk lingo...

there have been many Fatwas and protests against these fundamentalists, far more than the christian conservatives have faced at the hands of their brethren, but the sad truth is that while these things get covered in europe and asia, they rarely get covered in america. I have posted the lists of fatwas in too many threads to mention and it doesnt do any good. people just pretend that they dont exist.

it is simply not what people want to see, and if the ratings don't follow the news reports on television, the information will get lost in the shuffle.

Since so few americans speak any other language they are isolated from the world press by and large.

and to Stevenavy...

HUGS !!!

I want to say what I have said over and over again, because it cant be said enough....

While I have no fondness for the CinC and his ill conceived wars, my personal experiences with the Armed forces of America in the Mid East have taught me that they are the most honorable and professional fighting force on the globe. They are the only good thing that the people out there see of america. Day by day, muslims are bombarded with images of hate, similar to the few being said in this thread about Islam, and they never lower their heads. They are winning the hearts of the people of the Mid East the hard way... one at a time. It may take generations of exposure, but one day their efforts and sacrifices will pay off.

I am honored to consider you a friend !!

 

[bma1983]

and what is christianity doing to purge itself of george bush? Or pat roberston? or jerry fallwell? or the crusades? or the spanish inquisition?

and how do you think that refering to my people as animals can be considered apropriate or will engender understanding in any way?

I have no quarrel with you. I know you are the product of a culture that is in the grips of fear and anger. I just want you to see that you are speaking in double talk lingo...

I see more Christians distancing themselves from George Bush in this country than I see Muslims distancing themselves from extremist Islam. And even if Christians aren't distancing themselves does that mean Islam shouldn't?

Are you claiming those terrorists as your people? Because that's who I called animals. Not Muslims. Terrorists are animals in my book. If you are claiming them, then that’s why many people fear Islam.

 

[bma1983]

it is simply not what people want to see, and if the ratings don't follow the news reports on television, the information will get lost in the shuffle.

Since so few americans speak any other language they are isolated from the world press by and large.

I speak a fair share of French, so I make it a habit of reading Le Monde and Le Figaro on Sunday's. I also check out the BBC website on a daily basis. I have not once seen any protests against Islamic terrorists in Islamic nations. If I'm wrong and overlooked anything, please tell me.

 

[Andreus]

Why don't we refocus here on the thread starters true message and break from yet one more duscussion on the validity of Islam....

I asked their opinion over what should be the solution. One guy simply said that the whole of the middle east should be bombed and for Islam to be ended. I then tried to put words into his mouth.

"So there should be another Holocaust... but for muslims??" I said,
"yes" he replied.

The end didn't sound like a joke unfortunately. Though he may have said it in casually. But the other guy agreed with him. I was a bit lost for words and perhaps a little angry with myself that I didn't slam them for their opinions.

as this thread is framed, it seems that the point is whether or not all of Islam should be nuked out of existance, nothing more or less. Reframing the topic in these ways is only justifying that type of hatred.

as such, I feel I have nothing more to add that could be usefull. I will not recreate the problems of the world at JUB by going any further.

It will only break out in an unending and all too familiar arguement, and being so close to Ramadan, that is not something I can participate in at this time.

thanks

Peace to you all !!!

 

[bma1983]

I'm not so sure about that. In Iraq alone, the overwhelmingly vast majority of the country is relatively peaceful. In those areas, Muslims interact with local authorities and American forces in quite a peaceful and respectful manner. In fact, from personal experience, they object in many forms (active and passive) to those who bastardize their religion through extremism.


I wouldn't read anything close to that in anything that Andreus has posted. Terrorists, in any form or religion or race, are a threat to civilized society and those who wish to simply live their lives in peace. Dealing with them is one of the major issues facing the world today. Attacking them (verbally or militarily) isn't the answer -- that much we know for sure.

stevenavy2003, I agree with you. I'm sure the vast amount of Muslims in this world is against the terrorists. I never argued otherwise. I'm only saying that you can't expect people to not fear Islam if Islam is not coming out against this problem. There are over one billion Muslims. Instead of protesting the Pope, protest against the terrorists.

 

[Nonimus]

Instead of protesting the Pope, protest against the terrorists.

This is true, where are the Muslim mass-demonstrations against terrorism? Why do we not see muslims burning effigies of Osama Bin Laden and other extreemists?

This is what i find worrying - the often unvoiced sympathies that accompany terrorists acts. By not verbally condemning one automatically condones.

 

[Andreus]

By not verbally condemning one automatically condones.

or

continues the neverending cycle of arguement and retaliation

lets be honest here

no minds will be changed until both sides calm down on a global scale. That will take time... years, perhaps decades.

No one is trusting words anymore.

tolerance of our differences may help but IMHO its best to just focus on the values that we all share in the meantime