I'm so depressed

[Lube]

That's my point Lube. You are coming at this completely from the point that YOU think he's gay. Does he have any say in this? You may be right, you may be wrong, but my issue now is that YOU have decided that he is gay and you have to do something about it. I like your posts Lube and I understand your concerns and how you want to help this guy but there are some straight people out there - like 90% of the guys, and I'm sure they are not all hetro rednecks. I'm not giving any opinion one way or the other as I couldn't possibly as I don't know this dude, but just listen to what you're saying. YOU think he's gay so he should come out.

I'm not trying to pick on you, Trikky, but c'mon. Are you telling me you would think this guy was straight unless you had incontrovertible evidence?



Why are we so hesitant to label someone as even potentially gay, if we say we're OK with being gay?

Are we, really?

 

[youngnihilist]

Lube's right. Stereotypes are based on truth. The softer, more feminine guy who just doesn't quite "fit in" is almost always gay. Even that exaggerated list has some basis in truth (a lot of gays work in nonprofits, have littel white dogs, have Iphones)

And to that poster who talked about the flaming antique dinner with a girlfriend - that doesn't mean he's not gay! He could just be hiding. I see so many of those!

 

[KaraBulut]

Probably a good time to point out that Wladziu Valentino Liberace denied that he was gay. He publicly dated women.

I recall seeing an interview with him when he was in his 70s when an elderly audience member asked him how he kept his face so wrinkle-free. He said that he had been in a car accident and had been burned on his face. When they removed the bandages, his face was as smooth as a baby's bottom with not a single wrinkle.

At the end of his life, when he was dying of AIDS, he said that he had been on a watermelon diet.

He went to his grave denying many things. Who are we to say otherwise?

And besides, things aren't always what they seem:

 

[trikky]

Hey Kara loved trhe Rock Hudson video. The starting clip was from a film where Rock (a closeted gay guy) played a straight man, who was pretending to be gay in order to bag the leading lady. Work that one out!

Lube I'm not saying that we don't all have our gaydars pinging for liberace or other such guys, I just know that when I was totally closeted even though I knew people suspected my sexuality (and I score low on the liberaceometer) I would have resented a gay guy approaching me and letting me know that he KNEW I was gay and I should come because everyone else knew too. He may have been right, but it wouldn't have done anything to change my situation.

One thing which I have come to learn is that a closeted guy who is still in denial himself and not reached self acceptance is as good as straight practically because until he does reach self acceptance he won't be receptive to anything gay related. If that's where this guy is then you can't do much for him. On the other hand if HE KNOWS he's gay and has accepted it but for some misguided reason is going ahead with the marriage to hide then you can and probably should do something because he probably will be more receptive to talking IMO. But it is your call Lube because you know this dude. I think email would be best because then he can't shut down a conversation if he sees where it's going.

 

[Lube]

when he was dying of AIDS... Who are we to say otherwise?

I know you're joking about your last statement Kara, but that juxtaposition of information is just the sort of thing that drives me crazy.

We get gaydar pings from guys, we get loads & loads of circumstantial evidence... and yet we continually say, "but who really knows?".

That, to me, is denial of the worst kind.

It's one thing to make an initial assumption that someone is straight--I mean, sure, they're the majority. It makes perfect sense to assume someone's straight right off the bat.

But as evidence builds, we seem to stick our collective heads in the sand. It's like we demand incontrovertible evidence--and I think I know why.

It's because we're really not OK with someone being gay. We say we're fine with it, and yet we get called out for accusing someone of being gay.

Accusing?!

That's a terrible term if I ever heard one.

We don't accuse someone for being left handed. And if a friend has a lefty-notebook and lefty-scissors in their house, we make a pretty reasonable assumption that they're lefty. OK, it could be their mother's scissors or their friend's notebook, but chances are they're lefty.

But god forbid I should deduce that someone's gay because of their job or interests or--heavens!--their actions!

Some people here think I think everyone's gay. Well, you know 10% of the population is a giant number. If there are 20 households per block, the equivalent of 2 of those households are filled with gay people--for every block on every street in every town!

1 out of every 10 cubicles; 1 out of every 10 desks; 1 out of every 10 cars are filled with GLBT people.

OMFG, people--look! There are gays all around us. You are not the only gay in the village. Stop acting like you are.

And stop acting like the simple act of identifying gay people is the equivalent of accusing them of such. It's (almost) 2010: you and they can't hide anymore. People aren't dumb.

Anyone who's afraid of identifying someone as gay because of common attributes of gay men is still steeped in a stinking pile of d-e-n-i-a-l. And self-loathing.

 

[Lube]

One thing which I have come to learn is that a closeted guy who is still in denial himself and not reached self acceptance is as good as straight practically because until he does reach self acceptance he won't be receptive to anything gay related. If that's where this guy is then you can't do much for him. On the other hand if HE KNOWS he's gay and has accepted it but for some misguided reason is going ahead with the marriage to hide then you can and probably should do something because he probably will be more receptive to talking IMO. But it is your call Lube because you know this dude. I think email would be best because then he can't shut down a conversation if he sees where it's going.

Yeah, I totally get that, trikky. That's why I'm just going to leave him to his own devices.

It just depresses me that this still happens in 2010. His parents are über-liberal, too. Not sure where he got his wacky ideas from. Maybe the other side of his family??

 

[Telstra]

More gayish things (again, any one of these things proves nothing; but the more "points" you accumulate... LOL):

Being a waiter.
Being a nurse.
Being in the boy scouts.
Working for a non-profit.
Being a letter carrier or delivery guy (no idea why! but there are lots!)
Being a flight attendant.
Being a collector of eccentric things.
Being eccentric.
Being very, very particular (Hello, Steve Jobs!)
Being in the arts (movies, painter, etc.)
Owning a Mac
Owning an iPhone
Having a little white doggie (even leatherbears do this, LOL)
Broadway, divas, dance music
Marrying for the first time after age 30
ADORING children, to the exclusion of your spouse ("doting father syndrome")
Never talking about your home life at work
Expert at theatre and movies
Having many girl friends
Not liking most sports except biking, volleyball, and soccer

I'm non of those, so what are you saying now ...

 

[Lube]

I'm non of those, so what are you saying now ...

Of course we'll find gay guys who have none of those things.

It's not a check list. It's a point system.

I'm sure you have plenty of things that identify you as gay.

The worst gays are those who won't admit it.

Even Jasun has a very, very gay condo.

Nothing wrong with being gay, folks! Or don't you believe that?

 

[Telstra]

Hey Kara loved trhe Rock Hudson video. The starting clip was from a film where Rock (a closeted gay guy) played a straight man, who was pretending to be gay in order to bag the leading lady. Work that one out!

Lube I'm not saying that we don't all have our gaydars pinging for liberace or other such guys, I just know that when I was totally closeted even though I knew people suspected my sexuality (and I score low on the liberaceometer) I would have resented a gay guy approaching me and letting me know that he KNEW I was gay and I should come because everyone else knew too. He may have been right, but it wouldn't have done anything to change my situation.

One thing which I have come to learn is that a closeted guy who is still in denial himself and not reached self acceptance is as good as straight practically because until he does reach self acceptance he won't be receptive to anything gay related. If that's where this guy is then you can't do much for him. On the other hand if HE KNOWS he's gay and has accepted it but for some misguided reason is going ahead with the marriage to hide then you can and probably should do something because he probably will be more receptive to talking IMO. But it is your call Lube because you know this dude. I think email would be best because then he can't shut down a conversation if he sees where it's going.

Agreed. People is smart enough to come out for themselves in their own time if they have the tools like the internet, forum like this and watch all sorts of porn.

 

[Lube]

You're making an assumption that because you had issues with your sexuality then the rest of us do too...

Denying you have any gay attributes is hardly not having any issues.

On the contrary.

Even super-macho football player Esera Tuaolo is pretty damn gay.

And by "pretty damn gay", I don't mean lispy, thin, gesticulating twink. You realize that, right?

 

[Lube]

Here's more:

* languages (human and/or computer)
* (over-)sensitivity
* Facebook, Twitter, MySpace addiction


And if you're a bear:

* science fiction/fantasy
* gaming
* computers & Linux
* anime
* comic books/graphic novels
* job in IT or accounting
* hair metal bands

 

[Lube]

Sorry, but now you're just listing hobbies

And what's wrong with that?

If my theory is that gay guys share are lot of interests, doesn't hobbies play a big part of that?

Cute heart on your avatar/status line, btw.

 

[TX-Beau]

It's like you're delusional: in order to live the lie that people don't see through your lies, you defend other men who use the very same lies.

Print that out and tag it to your mirror.

I agree with you on the effeminate thing, why, because straight guys in our culture are NOT allowed to be effeminate. They'll get called gay for that, and getting called gay is derogatory, even if you are, in the popular mind it means effeminate (though that is changing) - hence the river dance of justification and misdirection you're getting hit with. Straight guys whatever their natures will go to great lengths not to be called effeminate, gay men will go to great lengths to scream that not all gay men are "that way."

We're all running away from the evil specter of effeminate. Witness all the "SA/SA" gay men running away from effeminate as fast as their little gay legs can carry them, and all the "bisexuals," who think we're buying what they're selling. Are there Bi guys? Sure. But we all know from experience how many gay men use that to run away from gay.

The only ones of us who don't care, got there by realizing that there's nothing wrong with being effeminate, so if you see a guy who's really effeminate and not horribly trying to overcompensate, then he's probably a gay guy. If you see a guy who's effeminate and desperately trying to run away from it, he's probably gay. Are there effeminate straight guys? Probably, are there effeminate straight guys who are just peachy with being effeminate? I'd bet that both numbers are vanishingly small, and I'd bet that these guys are huge womanizers or some other kind of guy that mitigates the effeminate and the gay very obviously.

Do I think your friend is gay? No idea. But if you say so, well you're the one who knows him.

 

[Ryuusei Boy]

Lol, you're going way too far. You're listing geek hobbies, not gay hobbies. I'd know tons of gay guys the kind of guys who don't have girlfriends.

Also, I don't think not thinking every guy who is girly is gay is a problem of denial. We all would love to know lots of gay people, but the fact is, we're a tiny minority, and that means most people are most likely not gay. Even if they have Jeeps, white dogs and like computers.

 

[Lube]

Lol, you're going way too far. You're listing geek hobbies, not gay hobbies. I'd know tons of gay guys the kind of guys who don't have girlfriends.

I swear to god, I didn't write that, you did. Re-read what you wrote!

Like I said: any one of those things don't determine your sexuality. It's not a checklist; it's a point system. The more points, the more likely to be gay.

Also, I don't think not thinking every guy who is girly is gay is a problem of denial. We all would love to know lots of gay people, but the fact is, we're a tiny minority, and that means most people are most likely not gay. Even if they have Jeeps, white dogs and like computers.

10% is not a tiny minority. That's a ton of people. 0.01% is a tiny minority. You're not the only gay in the village.

And if a guy has a Jeep and little white doggie, is approaching 30, is unmarried, and likes computers, I guarantee you he's gay. Closeted or in denial, perhaps, but definitely gay. You really need to get out more.

 

[Lube]

Print that out and tag it to your mirror.

Yes, thank you. The longer I'm here, the clearer I see this: Denial, everywhere. Subtle, though it is.

 

[youngnihilist]

10% are probably gay (but who knows), and an even larger number are not exclusively heterosexual.

 

[Ryuusei Boy]

I swear to god, I didn't write that, you did. Re-read what you wrote!

By that, I mean I'd know lots of guys without girlfriends. That's not the case. Guys like video games and girls

Also, where did that whole 10% thing came from? 1 out of every 10 guys seems way too high for me.

 

[Lube]

By that, I mean I'd know lots of guys without girlfriends. That's not the case. Guys like video games and girls

Are you sure about that? What happens when they get out of high school or college? Do they ever grow up and get married? Have you ever thought about that before?

Much like "boyish good looks", maybe nerd is a euphemism for gay?

Also, where did that whole 10% thing came from? 1 out of every 10 guys seems way too high for me.

Estimates range from 5% to 15%. Personally, I think it's closer to 15%, but 10% works for me.

And that's kinda my point: if 1 out of 10 guys seems way too high for you... maybe you haven't really been very observant?

As people here are wont to point out: all gays are not twinks. There are furry bears and barrel-chested guys and dorky mathematicians who are gay. Open your eyes.

 

[Ryuusei Boy]

While I just don't agree with many of the points you make, you're definitely right about something; I suck at determining who is gay and who is not