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Iraq or Mexico: Who Threatens America More?

I can't resist a shot at post 16's "thread creation theory".
Threads weren't created, dude -- they evolved out of chaos into their present orderly form. :lol:

There's a complex mix of influences going on, but I'm coming down on Mexico being the greatest threat, societally.
Underneath is the enabling liberal feel-good pseudo-philosophy that wants to forgive and embrace even when what's being embraced is engaged in one's destruction. Just as with its fostering of laws that have taught kids they can get away with hundreds of small crimes and a totally anti-social attitude, the liberal ethos doesn't care that millions of people are coming here with no intent of becoming Americans. Indeed, the liberal "can't we all just get along" mush much prefers feeling good about each other to having a clue what being an American is about -- and so we have no real penalties for entering the country illegally, no real penalties for working here illegally, no real requirements for living here anyway (except being willing to just get along). So of course people in Mexico think they can come to the U.S. of A. without penalty of any sort.
The great corporations don't help at all; rather, they contribute to the megamigration by pretending patriotism but looking the other way on the premise that these millions who will labor so cheaply must have the mass effect of driving wages down -- which they do, to a limited but generally overstated extent. When they do complain, they join the liberal advocates of protectionist labor policy, crying out with great hypocrisy that these immigrants are "taking American jobs", which also is somewhat true, but not nearly to the extent that is widely held.

Yet both of these elements serve to cover up a fact that any serious student of the long history of the Americas must be aware of: migrations northward have been a regular phenomenon for millennia. From South America and the Yucatan into the Caribbean and Cuba and thence to Florida, and up the Isthmus into Mexico and on northward, people have been moving in trickles and tribes, seeking new territory, off and on -- mostly on -- since far before the hemisphere's continents were named after a rather obscure Italian explorer. Viewed in the long term, this is just another mass movement of people -- albeit on a larger scale, but then the continents have larger populations.

So, they're coming, and only lip service has been paid to stopping the flow. That alone, in itself, is no threat. Germans once came to North America in such numbers that German very nearly became the official language of the U.S. Italians also came in great swarms, raising fears the country would become a realm run by mafiosi. Irish came, and the cry went up that they would take all the good jobs... and perhaps turn the country over to the Papists. Refugees came from all over, and in every case they were greeted with suspicion -- a suspicion whose degree was most proportionate to the degree of difference, whether language, religion, or skin color.
But these immigrants are different -- many of them very truly different. Many of them have no loyalty to the country they've settled in -- witness the fact that in Hispanic-issue related protests, Mexican flags are in abundance. If they had any inclination to being Americans, they'd be waving the stars and stripes, not the banner of a foreign country. Those immigrants, whatever the rest may be, are certainly not friends; they are parasites, invading parasites.
Nor is their country of origin a friend, no matter the pleasant public noises for the press and camera. Mexico complains at every effort the U.S. makes to control its borders, objects to every deportation, protests laws intended to protect U.S. citizens against invaders... in their own country! The way Mexico squeals, one would think Congress is trying to make law for south of the border!
And those are not the actions of a friend. A friendly country would be cooperating to make the border tight against illegal crossing, not happily encouraging millions of its own people to go northward... and remain loyal to the homeland, not their new country. A friendly country would ask, "How can we help?"

We need to fix the problems within, though, while we're dealing with the problem on the borders. Fences to deter must be matched by the restoration of a school curriculum that teaches what America is about (and it isn't "democracy"). And penalties inside the border should be toughened for both illegal immigrants and antisocial youth -- by which I mean all those who shrug off lawbreaking as no big deal because their records will be wiped clear when they turn 18.


Of course, if Bush hadn't dug a hole called "the Iraq war" and started pouring tens of billions of dollars in, the U.S. could just buy Mexico....
 
THe Euros should consider that fact that due to their women leaving so many babies in the commode of the abortion centers, France, Italy and others are no longer able to sustainbirth rates required to avoid mass immigration to perform jobs you feel are beneath you.
Abortion rates in the UK, France and Italy are similar/lower to the US.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd2.html

The only good muslims are agnostics, athiests, or dead muslims.
Agnostics and atheists are not muslims.
Such xenophobic and islamophobic comment only shows bias, ignorance and lack of will to understand what is going on.
Muslims are about 1.6 billions worlwide, that's 1 human out of 4. Are you calling out for mass genocide or something?
Largest populations of muslims are in:
1. Indonesia
2. India
3. China

As about the muslim population in the countries you mentioned:
France: 7% of the population.
Italy: 1% of the population.
UK: 2.7% of the population.
(US: 3.75% of the population)

http://islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm
 
-- witness the fact that in Hispanic-issue related protests, Mexican flags are in abundance. If they had any inclination to being Americans, they'd be waving the stars and stripes, not the banner of a foreign country.

I would be willing to bet that had Americans went down to Mexico City and waved their flags, it would have been met by physical violence. ;)
 
I would be willing to bet that had Americans went down to Mexico City and waved their flags, it would have been met by physical violence. ;)

You got that right!

Hell burn a Mexican flag on U.S. soil and the Mexican Government bitches!

Mexico says U.S. group burning Mexican flag is unacceptable

By: Associated Press

MEXICO CITY -- A Mexican official on Monday struck out at a U.S. anti-immigrant group for burning the Mexican flag outside a consulate in Tucson.

"We consider any provocation or vandalism of national symbols to be unacceptable," Foreign Relations Undersecretary Lourdes Aranda said in a news conference.

About 12 people from the Tucson-based Border Guardians burned the flag Sunday on the sidewalk in front of the Mexican Consulate. They carried a sign that read, "Defending American Sovereignty."


Group members spoke out against proposed immigration laws and blamed the Mexican government for the number of undocumented migrants who enter the United States through Arizona, the busiest illegal entry point along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The protest came as hundreds of thousands people have marched in U.S. cities to support immigration reforms. Demonstrators have carried Mexican as well as American flags.

Border Guardians director Laine Lawless said the group plans to burn more flags.

"Anytime they take to the streets, we'll burn a Mexican flag," Lawless said.

source: NCTimes

But burn an American flag in the Central Plaza in Mexico City, and no one gives a shit.

mexico_city_020501_ap.jpg
 
A way to make this point would be to gather a few dozen people with big signs and counter-protest these invaders.
You wonder what the signs should say? I like

DO YOU KNOW WHAT COUNTRY THIS IS?
 
Ah, fuck the yanks.. i've had enough.

I hope the next government of the UK abandons the relationship with them and goes to the Europe side.. between us, Europe could flattern the US no worries.

We also see eye to eye on more issues, are more mature, more experienced etc.

More mature -- yeah. That's why so many European nations were cheating on the U.N. sanctions against Iraq, with government connivance. That's why European nations didn't want to fight Saddam -- they were getting a cut of the illicit cash. Yep -- pretty mature.

Historically, I think the Europeans have been little whiny kids while the U.S. stood up free. Europe paid tribute to the Barbary Pirates; the U.S. kicked their asses. Europe caved, and caved, and kissed Hitler's ass, and Roosevelt had to maneuver the U.S. into the war to save Europe's skin.

I think Blair stood with the U.S. because he understood that what's required against the terrorists is strength, not more appeasement and retreat, which is Europe's heritage. The Iraq tangle doesn't deserve to be supported, but strength does. The dilemma isn't a happy one -- someone needs to find a path of strength which diverges from the current program.
 
Easy guys. The UK and the US are longstanding friends, as they should be. The US came from the UK, and though they had a rocky start, the US returned the favor of friendship to the UK by helping them in the first World War (it was because we were sending aid that US ships were sank by the Germans, which in turn was used as justification for joining the war on the side of the UK) as well as saving Britian's tail in WWII. The UK has been a voice of reason in Europe, and people here in the US shouldn't be so quick to forget that. At the same time, our UK fellows here should remember that the US has helped the UK. After all, if Hitler had conqured the UK in WWII, then Muslims being there setting bombs in subways "because the UK sided with the US in going to war in Iraq" wouldn't even be an issue since your entire population would be second class citizens and xenophobic Hitler probably would have nuked the middle east (Jew and Muslim both) as soon as he gained the technology.


So, getting back to the topic of the thread:
Well...Iraq can be. But not for the reason most people might think. The danger in Iraq is also not limited to the United States.

Essentially, to make a terribly complicated issue...well, overly simplified; under Saddam, the Iraqi people were held on a tight leash. Now Saddam isn't there, the leash is gone. So what happens? Well, there are three factions, north, south, and middle. A lot of oil is in the north and some in the south and not much in the middle. They all want the oil. They all dislike each other. So now that the leash is gone, like three angry dogs being walked in the park and suddenly freed, they want to rip each other's heads off.

(Note: This is in no way comparing HUMAN BEINGS with being merely animals or being racest, xenophobic, or any other form of intollerence; it's JUST an analogy. Geeze, how sad is it when talking to "intellectuals" that one must clearly state this sort of thing to prevent a "misunderstanding"? I mean, c'mon, people SHOULD be smart enough to see an analogy for what it is...to quote a fictitional counsiler "Sometime's a cake is just a cake." ^_^ ...especially people who claim that they are "intellectual".)

What people don't realize is that the conflicts these people have with each other goes far deeper than the US being involved. Indeed, it's been brewing for quite some time. It might be said (though I'm uncertain how ultimately true this is) that the reason many governments in the middle-east are so iron fisted is because if they aren't, their own people will kill each other without restraint. The people in Iraq, oddly enough, like that the US and her allies got rid of Saddam. They just would like us all to leave so they can fight it out amongst themselves. Unfortunately, Bush just doesn't QUITE get this. He's right, it's also drawn all kinds of terrorist elements that could otherwise be attacking the 'States, which to a point is a good thing (preferable to a nuke going off in San Fransisco or DFW, anyway), but the toll is becoming more than is really reasonable. The Iraqis have what they want. They're free. They're free to hate and free to kill and, if the UN Coalition would get out of their way, free to fight it out between themselves. -shrug-

Well, an additional problem being that if the US and co. leave, then that would create a power vacuum for all kinds of seedy, power hungry individuals to come in and throw their hat into the lot to join in that battle royal too.


In any case, why I'm saying Iraq is a danger; because of the war in Iraq, and the Iraqi's preference for killing each other to actually forging peace, the Iraq war will always be seen (well, in the present and near future) as a failure. People will use it against Bush, the Republicans, and the United States, if not also against other countries that are still supporting the war. Further, intelligence channels and work with countries that are actually in that area (such as our "ally", Saudi Arabia) will be devistated, as well as our allies' reputations sullied with our own.

Further, the radical elements of Islam will continue to cite the war as reason for their overly agressive actions. If we don't pull out, they will say because we are there they have reason to fight us. If we do pull out, they'll claim it as the first of many victories and harrold it as the first step to press the attack. This is always the case when you have evil people that quest for their own personal power; they will use any outcome of any situation and word it in a way to support their perverse and greedy aims.


The problem, as I see it, is no matter the outcome, this will be used by ANYONE who has ANY problem with the US (and to a lesser extent, it's allies) ANY time in the future for ANY reason they want. And it will be quite some time before the United States' government can rid itself of the stench of it all, no matter which party is in the Congress or who is in the White House. (After all, we'll still be "bloody American cowboys" even if we elect a "President Hillary Clinton". -_-; As much as people here and in the rest of the US think it, the rest of the world doesn't really care who's in power in our Congress, and to a lesser extent, they probably don't really care who our next president is as long as it's not Bush. ^_^)




As for Mexico...it's a danger for a different reason. It's a much more imediate danger (the whole Iraq affair, as I've said, is going to be a longstanding problem to the US and to a lesser extent all nations involved...on either side of the whole thing). The "taking over from the inside" thing aside, the drug trafficing and overall chaos on the other side of the border isn't very comforting, nor is the corruption in the ranks of their leadership, politicians, police, and judges. There may be some noncorrupt people down there in positions of power, but I've heard enough stories of the corrupt to be concerned.

It's a drain on our economy and a group that is self-segregating. The US has gone through a lot over the past 100 years to make it more integrated, blending people, and interconnecting them. While there are the "black part of town"s, it isn't anything on the level of the Hispanic ghetto situations in some larger cities. That they are keeping themselves segregated is disconcerting for reasons that it implies at least some thought of self-superiority, capability to marshall force/militia if they choose to, belief in "their kind" being superrior to others (directly opposed to the US's ideas of equality), and a general sense that they have no desire to meld into the common pool of society.

All THAT aside, there's the obviousness of the border being, apparently, quite open for anyone to come in. Many illegals are just people that want money but want to stay Mexicans. They want to have it both ways. This alone is annoying, but not malicious. The problem is that much more dangerous people, who do have a malicious will and intent, can ALSO come in just as easily.

However, my own wisdom isn't great enough to persent a solution. If I were "god", or Dictator Matt over the US, I would start by errecting a wall along the entire boarder. As much as people say it's stupid, it does block easy access. THEN you set up patrols. We have patrols, but they can't cover EVERYWHERE. A wall can have cameras and sensors to more easily alert patrolers. And a wall doesn't mean the cold shoulder. This wall would have doors in it here and there for legal trade and travel. ^_^ Of course, I'd also phase out of Iraq. -shrug- I mean, if they WANT to fight it out between each other, we shouldn't stop them. They have different views on life and reality than (most of) us do, and trying to force them to conform to our views is unrealistic. We're the people that take pride in our attempts at "multiculturalism" and see it as a high and lofty goal. To them, that isn't a goal, it's a weakness. One they have no desire to partake in. So they aren't going to change due to some high and lofty intellectual or even humanitarian goals.

Unfortunately, the Replican Congress, which wouldn't do anything but build a "partial wall" (which is useless since what's the point of a wall if people can just walk around it?), has been replaced by an even worse Democrat Congress which has scrapped the wall plan and decided they're not going to do ANYTHING. Maybe we just all need to join the Minutemen, who knows.


Eh, what can I say, I haven't the wisdom to do more than observe right now, and even at that I find myself continually lacking. -shrug-
 
Neither one is a threat.

The level of ignorance displayed on this thread is BEYOND sad. I was about to get into the HUGE economic/security/political/cultural issues that are on the U.S.A-Mexico agenda and that most seem to know so little about or to take so lightly... HOWEVER it is a God given right to be and to remain stupid and I'm just to tired right now :wave:
 
Mexicans should come in the usa like any other foreigner would getting a green card.
 
Neither one is a threat.

The level of ignorance displayed on this thread is BEYOND sad. I was about to get into the HUGE economic/security/political/cultural issues that are on the U.S.A-Mexico agenda and that most seem to know so little about or to take so lightly... HOWEVER it is a God given right to be and to remain stupid and I'm just to tired right now :wave:

Oh? Please, do tell. ^_^ It is also the right of the wise to become educated. Unless, of course, you're just saying this to sound smart and don't have anything to back it up. ^_^;

But yeah, please do go into the HUGE ecomomic, HUGE security, HUGE politica, and HUGE cultural issues that are on the US-Mexico agenda (does this mean the agenda that Mexico has for the US or an agenda the US has for Mexico...? Or perhaps you mean some people within the nation/nations in question?) I'm honestly (seriously, not sarcastically) quite curious what you have to say about it. Heheh, and I'm not even wise. ^_^V
 
Mexico's primary agenda with the U.S. is to keep the border leaky and real laws to deal with the problem here off the books. It's the best form of foreign aid they can get.
 
Oh? Please, do tell. ^_^ It is also the right of the wise to become educated. Unless, of course, you're just saying this to sound smart and don't have anything to back it up. ^_^;

But yeah, please do go into the HUGE ecomomic, HUGE security, HUGE politica, and HUGE cultural issues that are on the US-Mexico agenda (does this mean the agenda that Mexico has for the US or an agenda the US has for Mexico...? Or perhaps you mean some people within the nation/nations in question?) I'm honestly (seriously, not sarcastically) quite curious what you have to say about it. Heheh, and I'm not even wise. ^_^V

Ok ok, I will do mi good deed of the day. :)

1- HUGE Economic Issue: Where do I start? =P Mexico is our third largest business partner after Canada and China. Unlike China, however, Mexico actually buys American products, it actually buys more American products than Germany, France, England put together. I think I could also add Spain to that bunch but I don't have the latest numbers in front of me. The trade account between the U.S. and Mexico has to be between $400 and $500 BILLION right now. Hardly the kind of trade one would conduct with someone one considers a threat.

To this add the capital flows between both countries and the numerous American and Mexican companies operating on each other's soil. There are of course more American companies operating in Mexico than Mexican companies operating in the U.S. because of obvious economic differences and also because Mexican Corporations only started to internationalize in recent years.


2 - HUGE Security Issue: I really don't see how this one needs to be explained... We share a long border, millions of people and products cross that border everyday by land, air, and even sea to a lesser extent. Security is the center piece upon which SPP was launched in 2005! A security perimeter around North America.

I am sure you know that Mexico also provides a lot of our oil (actually I'm sure you didn't know that :P). In 2006 Mexico was our second largest provider of oil only surpassed by Canada and followed by Venezuela and Saudi Arabia (in that order). This, in addition to being a clear security issue, is also part of that HUGE economic issue I was discussing.

3- HUGE Political Issue: Mexico, a major emerging country with over 100 million people, a trillion dollar economy in PPP, a major player in Latinamerican affairs (our backyard), the largest Spanish-speaking democracy in the world, and our partner in NAFTA and SPP is important to us politically! Mexico is expected to become the fifth or six economy of the world before the first half of this century is up. I am sure you can put one and one together.

4- HUGE Cultural Issue: I only mentioned this because of the interaction between Mexican and Americans on a daily basis due to immigration, trade, tourism, etc. The number of Americans living in Mexico does not compare to the number of Mexicans living in the United States but Mexico still has the largest American community in the world outside the U.S. At this point I am not sure which country is changing the other most.

I agree that illegal immigration needs to be stopped but saying that Mexico is a threat is not only false but just downright ludicrous. Some of the statements made on this thread really show how a lot of people really just have absolutely no clue! :eek: I would also guess that most of those people don't even have a passport.

I am very sorry to break these news to many of you but in the future we can expect the already HUGE (LOL) ties between us to increase. This is called integration, it has been happening since the 70s IMO and will only increase with Canada and Mexico until we have something similar to the European Union.


For good or for bad we are stuck with Mexico and Mexico is stuck with us. Good bye. :wave:
 
^ good points.

But the way Mexico is treating the U.S. as their dumping ground for millions of people, as though they have a right to bleed off population northward, makes them a threat -- they're messing with our economy.

But they're an indirect threat due to that same long border; evidence of terrorists using it to get here have already been found. That ties in with Mexico's policy of acting as though they have a right to encourage illegal immigration. That attitude tells me they don't really care about U.S. security, because they want to let the border leak big-time.
 
^ true enough. If this was still an actually free country, and if it was a free economy, things could adjust. But we have so many artificial blockages in the free market, and so many limitations on entrepeneurship, that major shifts in things approach the level of trauma. So unless we're willing to actually abandon all our socialist aspects and restore lost freedoms, we can't handle this kind of immigration.

OTOH, it's a testimony to the vigor of the U.S. economy in spite of all its chains and shackles that we've absorbed the ones we have without worse consequences.
 
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